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Author Topic: Single Deeps Wintering in Florida...  (Read 2029 times)
KD4MOJ
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« on: September 11, 2012, 08:29:42 AM »

I just got through reading one of Walt Wrights manuscripts (Evils of the Double Deep) on why he runs a single deep in the winter. Very interesting read to say the least.

I thought I would do things different this year for the winter, mainly to expand my apiary. I run all double-deeps  and two supers but I'm thinking of running one deep with a super. Being in Florida (panhandle) it doesn't get all that cold so I'd like to hear from folks who over winter with 1 deep. Any thoughts on that?

...DOUG
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Larry Bees
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« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2012, 09:42:29 AM »

http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/walt-wright/evils-of-the-double-deep/
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Jim 134
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« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2012, 09:49:23 AM »

List of all articles published by Walt Wright


http://www.knology.net/~k4vb/all%20walt%20articles.htm




                BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
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KD4MOJ
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« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2012, 09:54:27 AM »



Yep that was what I was referring too.

...DOUG
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sterling
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« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2012, 10:49:37 AM »

I was at the Nashville Area Beekeepers meeting Sunday and Mr. Wright was the featured speaker and he did talk about the double deep and explained his reason for not liking the double deep set up. He stressed that in his location which is the southern part of middle TN. he thinks the single deep and two honey shallows work best for him. But also said that in some other locations the double deep may be better. He uses a single under the deep brood box for a pollen box and two singles above.
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Joe D
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« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2012, 12:56:13 PM »

The three hives I bought from an estate were configured like that.  The old man that had the bees got sick and died.  The bees were on their own for over a year.  Two were single deep with 2 shallow supers with queen excluders, the other was a single deep with one shallow no excluder.  There was brood in the single shallow.  The hives did have SHBs but so many bees they didn't seem to bother the hive.  Naturally I have put them in to 2 deeps.  May have to rethink that.



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BlueBee
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« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2012, 09:13:58 PM »

As Walt said in the end of his Beesource article, the solution is simple; use jumbo hives.  Dadant and Brother Adam figured this out 100 years ago.  Modern beeks just like to make life difficult for some reason huh  

Why fool with picking up a deep and putting a shallow under it for winter pollen stores?  Why fool with trying to keep brood out of shallow supers in the winter/spring?  Why fool with swapping boxes in the spring?  Why sort through dozens of brood frames in the spring looking for queen cells?  Why do beeks like to make their lives more difficult?

The solution is simple:  use jumbo frames.  I overwinter in a SINGLE jumbo box in Michigan.  No honey boxes on top, no pollen boxes on bottom, no candy boards, no swapping, no nothing; just one box and the bees are boiling out by spring.  The large brood frames make a lot of bees.  Of coarse my hives are also insulated polystyrene hives which also makes a big difference in wintering success IMO.
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Larry Bees
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« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2012, 10:09:51 PM »

What are jumbo hives? Hives with larger frames? Larry
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BlueBee
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« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2012, 10:31:11 PM »

Yes Larry, when people talk about jumbo hives, they’re talking about hives with larger frame sizes.  Larger as in more comb area per frame than a Deep frame.  Dadant and Brother Adam also experimented with different number of frames in a box.  I would have to look up what they ended up using, but I think they used up to 12 frames in a box.  Brother Adam took a frame or two out for wintering I believe. 

Bother Adam and Dadant’s frames were 11 ¼” deep I believe.  It’s my guess that modern bees in the USA are more prolific than they were 100 years ago (due to breeding, etc) and hence 11 ¼” deep frames seem like they might be a little undersized for a modern “jumbo” setup IMO.  So my frames are 14.5” deep.  There are 10,000 cells per frame.  I run 10 or 11 frames.  That’s a brood nest with 100,000+ cells for brood.  Of course they don’t use all 100K cells, but it’s got plenty of capacity for modern queens.
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Larry Bees
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« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2012, 10:35:58 PM »

Thanks BlueBee for explaining that! I never heard of that before, or if I did, I forgot.  huh That's possible.  grin

Larry
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Finski
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« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2012, 10:41:57 PM »

.
First, forget jumbohives.

Concentrate to langstroth or mediums.

You may use 3 medium system brood or 2 langstroth brood.
Women use often mere medium boxes.

I use 3 langstroth brood system without excluder. In summer lowest box is full of pollen.

But don't mix two different frame size in broods. They make procedures inflexible.

This is not science and not worth of article. What you want is where you put the excluder. I do not use it at all.

To winter in one box or two depends on how many brood frames the hive had before brood brake. How much hive reared winter bees, that is the size of wintering hive.

Finland and Florida is very different. There weather is warm and bees winter in loose cluster, if at all.

My hives form a tight cluster when out temp is -10C or -20C. The cluster expands in warm weather and fills the whole box in +10C temp.

My hives have now brood break up to March. Winter bees have emerged and summer bees are almost dead.

Even if my hives has been in 5-8 box in summer, one box may be enough for wintering. Late summer was rainy and cold and brood are was small in late summer. But I join hives to make 2-box winterers. They are quick to expand in Spring.


Here too, if the bees are too tight, they run too hot and do not make winter cluster. They spend too much food and may starve during winter.

But it is easy to see, what is good. I give one brood box for winter. I shake all bees in front of the hive.
If they do not have have enough space inside, I give then more . Then I transport them to home yard and start feeding.

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Finski
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« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2012, 10:53:42 PM »

What are jumbo hives? Hives with larger frames? Larry

The langstroth hive's important feature is that it is ergonomic.


Large broof frames are used in Estern Europe in chest and in stagnant hives.
There hives must be ften so heavy that thieves cannot carry them.

dadant frame is no ergonomic and it needs extra hangling system. I cannot see any advantage in Florida.
Even here plenty of professionals use mere mediums, and at same time many say that dadant is the right size.

The British are strange because they use brood and half.  In douple brood system you may  change the place of frames  between brood boxes but not in one and half system.  But it is somethind very old habits which no one remember why.

During my beekeeping years 50 y, the hives has grown 3 times bigger than in those golden years. The nursing systems must be different with that kind of layers.

If brood are too tight, bees store pollen in honey boxes. In my hives they do not store pollen at all in honey boxes because I give to them space under brood and beside walls. It is their natural place.
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Finski
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« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2012, 11:02:15 PM »

.
Think about ergonomics


Back pains are very usual nowadays. Many of us sit the whole day in work, in car, in sofa and in what ever.

When you get older back pains get worse and they do not heal like as young.

I started at the age of 15. I broke my back every summer but it was easy to get allright. Now, when back is hurt , it may take 6 months or 3 weeks or what ever.
Now, when I lift 20 kg, my back inform with pain that "this is not nice".

One farmer & be keeper said: "No problem. My lowest 3 joints in backbone has grown together. "
In bad cases joint must be linked together with platinum plates.

Think about you backbone when you do something heavy.


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Finski
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« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2012, 11:09:26 PM »

.

You have heard about iskias.

Think about it. It is not "old farts´ problem because you will be as old some day.
And it may be a reason why you must give up keeping bees.

If you brake your backbone, you may heal it when you do not work during next 6 weeks.
But try to prevent first to  brake it.


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BlueBee
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« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2012, 11:27:19 PM »

Finski, that’s another beauty of jumbo hives.  No back pain because you never have to pick up anything heavy.  No swapping boxes in the spring, no lifting to put pollen boxes under in the fall, no lifting one deep to check for queen cells in the bottom deep.  No lifting for inspections.  No heavy lifting at all.  I’ve even got my supers configured so I never have to pick up more than 30 lbs. 

As for the British using 1.5 boxes for brood, I don’t know; but Brother Adam didn’t.  Brother Adam did things the simple way.  One set of frames for brood, and shallows for honey.  Brood stays put and honey stays put.
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Jim 134
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« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2012, 06:22:39 AM »

Yes Larry, when people talk about jumbo hives, they’re talking about hives with larger frame sizes.  Larger as in more comb area per frame than a Deep frame.  Dadant and Brother Adam also experimented with different number of frames in a box.  I would have to look up what they ended up using, but I think they used up to 12 frames in a box.  Brother Adam took a frame or two out for wintering I believe. 

Bother Adam and Dadant’s frames were 11 ¼” deep I believe.  It’s my guess that modern bees in the USA are more prolific than they were 100 years ago (due to breeding, etc) and hence 11 ¼” deep frames seem like they might be a little undersized for a modern “jumbo” setup IMO.  So my frames are 14.5” deep.  There are 10,000 cells per frame.  I run 10 or 11 frames.  That’s a brood nest with 100,000+ cells for brood.  Of course they don’t use all 100K cells, but it’s got plenty of capacity for modern queens.




http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,38147.0.html



    BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
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"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
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"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/
KD4MOJ
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« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2012, 08:41:33 AM »

As Walt said in the end of his Beesource article, the solution is simple; use jumbo hives.  Dadant and Brother Adam figured this out 100 years ago.  Modern beeks just like to make life difficult for some reason huh  

Why fool with picking up a deep and putting a shallow under it for winter pollen stores?  Why fool with trying to keep brood out of shallow supers in the winter/spring?  Why fool with swapping boxes in the spring?  Why sort through dozens of brood frames in the spring looking for queen cells?  Why do beeks like to make their lives more difficult?

The solution is simple:  use jumbo frames.  I overwinter in a SINGLE jumbo box in Michigan.  No honey boxes on top, no pollen boxes on bottom, no candy boards, no swapping, no nothing; just one box and the bees are boiling out by spring.  The large brood frames make a lot of bees.  Of coarse my hives are also insulated polystyrene hives which also makes a big difference in wintering success IMO.


BlueBee:

If you look at my first post, I was talking about equipment that I already own, not trying to purchase or build more equipment. Also I was talking about a deep and a super, not boxes on the bottom etc. So basically a deep or a deep plus super on top.

...DOUG
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KD4MOJ
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« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2012, 08:43:50 AM »

Hopefully Hardwood and other So Fla beeks will chime on on what they do...

...DOUG
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Finski
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« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2012, 09:27:44 AM »

Finski, that’s another beauty of jumbo hives.  No back pain because you never have to pick up anything heavy. 

hah. Beekeepig does not go that way.
Jumbo frame gives no advantage compared  to Langstroth.

I love to lift something heavy because it is honey.

No heavy = no honey.

.
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« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2012, 12:27:27 PM »

I'm not really south FL Doug...more central. I winter in single deeps. This is not because I've got an overwintering system that requires a single but because:

I split in the fall during the Brazillian pepper flow for spring nucs and to reduce populations.
I move bees a lot during winter to be ready for spring flows and want my pallets to be stack-able so that more fit on the truck.
Feeding is simplified when all of the hives are the same size/strength.

Scott
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"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...And we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

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