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Author Topic: fall  (Read 3805 times)
colbees
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« on: September 08, 2012, 04:54:15 PM »

What should I give my bees to prepare for the upcoming winter (medications).
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« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2012, 08:14:45 PM »

*PoP*

That was the sound of a can of worms you just opened

Stand by for the replies Smiley

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asprince
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« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2012, 08:29:25 PM »

Ok, I will start. Are they sick? If not, why medicate?  laugh

Steve
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Finski
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« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2012, 02:31:39 AM »

.
Very necessary is to pick varroa mites off from winter brood.
Thymol pads or formic acid are good stuff to do that.
Later in December, when the hive is broodless, oxalic acid trickling usefull.

Autumn mite treatment need 3 weeks handling because medication does not affect on mites inside capped brood cells.

Guys here will explain that treatment is not needed,
but if you do not want to loose you hives, do it.
Varroa is today more dangerous than 20 years ago.
It has lots of assistant diseases.

Advices like in MAAREC PAGES have miserable advices to treat varroa. Canadian pages are quite good and modern.

Official Canadian advices are 10 years after Europe, because  in many countries like UK, Canada and USA want to make good business before they give official acceptance to varroa stuffs.

The most ridiculous is Great Britain.  It  has not "allowed" to use self made oxalic acid solution.
But it has allowed to import Italian 6% product which is not suitable in treatment.

 Treatment is "against law" but everybody uses it. You must bye some company product, so you avoid  going to prison.

Like hive  frames in Uk, they are 4 times more expencive than in Finland or Sweden.
They live in Robin Hood system even today. Everybody try to rob each others.

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T Beek
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« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2012, 08:16:29 AM »

My bees have recieved no man-made chemical treatments, nor whatever the latest herbal remedy touted from on high, for last 7 seasons to control varroa.  Zero, nada, none.    

With the exception of  last years BEAR attack my bees are doing just fine w/out these things introduced into their homes by me, averaging better than 50% survival rates by Spring for last 7 years.  Last year I had 100% survival without treating for anything, until the Bear discovered my hives that is.

Varroa in my hives is minimal to say the least.  Am I and my bees just lucky?  I think not  cool

From Finski's discription; I'm glad my bees (or me) don't live in Finland  grin

t
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« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2012, 04:00:22 PM »

So you see, lol, to treat or not to treat that is the question.

Basically if you choose to treat, Fall treatments generally consists of a powdered Tylan antibiotic for AFB/EFB, a mite treatment of your choosing as well as a treatment of Fumagillin for Nosema. Some people use all of these, some a few of these and others none at all. I'm not overly comfortable with a 50% hive loss and since previously losing some hives to Nosema, I now do a treatment of Fumagillin in the Fall as well as an Oxalic mite treatment later in the Winter. Do a search on here, read all you can, and then make a decision on what your personal preference is.
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Finski
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« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2012, 12:47:53 AM »


Varroa in my hives
is minimal to say the least.  Am I and my bees just lucky?  I think not  cool

From Finski's discription; I'm glad my bees (or me) don't live in Finland  grin

t

lack of jokes, I think

yes, it would very long distance to nurse them.

I remember that only one country  in the wold suffers from "disapearing bees" called CDD.

Yes T Beek.  if you concenrate your self  to find from google beter jokes. And first, change that stupid avatar.


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T Beek
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« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2012, 05:57:30 AM »

Whatever Fin  rolleyes

Are you upset that my bees are varroa free, that my methods work (don't need your help, didn't ask for it) or that I made a joke (your words, not mine) about Finland? 

You're kind of a sensitive guy heh?  Sorry to P-U-OFF  Undecided.  Was 'never' my intent, not ever sure what your intentions are???

Perhaps you could/should go back to ignoring me  grin (I liked it better) and I'll do the same. 

BTW; What's wrong w/ my avatar, it looks just like me, minus a few scars. Gotta problem w/ that?  grin 

Seems like it always comes down to this adolescent level w/ you Finski.......what a shame since you obviously have so much more to offer besides the usual ridicule.

t
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Finski
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« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2012, 10:45:44 AM »

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Beek. Go and change your medication.
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phrasmotic
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« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2012, 02:51:29 PM »

There are those who would rather lose a hive (even ALL of their hives) than medicate.  I'm one of them, because it seems clear to me that the salvation of the honeybee will be good genetics, not stronger meds.  That said, I'm a hobbyist with just a few hives - I don't do this for a living - so I totally understand the rationale of those big boys who medicate.  I can buy new bees each year if I have to without going bankrupt... I just have to explain it to the wife.   grin
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Finski
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« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2012, 03:37:22 PM »

I don't do this for a living - so I totally understand the rationale of those big boys who medicate.    grin


We don't hate animals but it seems that some hate American cars

"daddy loves, daddy pays"

Crazy Finns of.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2012, 03:55:42 PM by Finski » Logged

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Finski
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« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2012, 03:47:48 PM »

.
Hurry just for fun

HANKIRALLI 2012 EK4
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BlueBee
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« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2012, 04:17:34 PM »

Is it snowing over there already  Smiley
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Finski
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« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2012, 04:41:17 PM »

.
Here you see the weather of one town in the niddle of southern Finland

http://foreca.fi/Finland/Jyvaskyla

Here is the weather on Polar Circle

http://www.foreca.fi/Finland/Rovaniemi

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Finski
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« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2012, 04:48:39 PM »

.
About varroa

"Me America, me no mites"

Okay. Fine.

Why those who understand beekeeping,  write this way:


LOOSES IN OREGON ARE THREE TIMES THAN NORMAL

Saturday, 21 April 2012 17:16 Written by Horacio Mezziga

The Northwest hasn’t been hammered as badly as other regions, but hive losses have spiked. A 10 percent hive loss over winter previously was considered normal, but losses the past few years ranged from 29 to 37 percent, said George Hansen, a Colton commercial beekeeper and president of the American Beekeeper Federation. Hansen owns Foothills Honey Co., and travels the pollination circuit with 5,000 hives.

30 April 2012 12:47 Written by Analia Manriquez

A mild winter and unseasonably warm early spring have created conditions reminiscent of 2010, when beekeepers were caught off guard from an explosion of mite populations that killed off many honeybee colonies, according to a state expert. "The bees are coming out, but so are the parasitic mites," said Tony Jadczak, state apiarist and bee inspector. "What I've seen in my inspections is elevated mite loads because of the good health of the honeybees.
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Finski
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« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2012, 04:56:54 PM »

.
The mite population douples itself every month or in 4 weeks. The longer brood period, the more mites.

100  - 200 - 400 - 800 -Critical border -  1600- 3200 - 6500-

7 months brood - 4 broodles months.

From March to October = 8 months.
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T Beek
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« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2012, 05:18:37 PM »

And the point is......................who knows?  I Feel like starting a fire, anyone w/ me Wink?

Don't treat.  Just say no!

t
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luvin honey
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« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2012, 08:08:54 PM »

I had enough mites this spring to see them all over the front porches of my hives. Since then I've seen none and the hives appear to be booming. I've never treated, and these are the first hives I've had overwinter. Lost in the past to starvation, over-swarming or bears. I don't plan to ever treat and hope to have hardy bees!

Everyone has their own methods, and I'm not trying to make a living on honey. I DO, however, make a living on organic vegetable production, raise chickens without antibiotics or hormones, as well as a couple pigs for the family. I never, ever used treatments on this stuff, until this year when I need organic treatments to save my vining crops from pests. So I understand the threat of a crop (including honey) loss but I think 9 times out of 10 in other systems (birds, mammals, vegetables) it's not necessary.
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mulesii
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« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2012, 09:18:02 PM »

Whatever Fin  rolleyes

Are you upset that my bees are varroa free, that my methods work

t

I am a new beekeeper, but I did a lot of research before I started.  If my bees were varroa free and I still had 50 % losses over seven years, I would probably reevaluate my beekeeping practices.
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Finski
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« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2012, 10:23:10 PM »

And the point is......................who knows?  I Feel like starting a fire, anyone w/ me Wink?

Don't treat.  Just say no!

t


When I come on this forum,it reads  still "International Beekeeping Forum".

I cannot see "beek forum" or "beek's fire nor desire station".

Varroa in Canada


 
 A University of Guelph researcher, Professor Ernesto Guzman has identified a distinctly Canadian cause of honeybee hive die-off. In the United States hives are found empty in the spring, in Canada they are full of bee cadavers.

The phenomenon is called colony collapse disorder (CCD) in the U.S. and winter colony mortality in Canada.


Researchers at the University of Guelph studied more than 400 colonies throughout three seasons, and found that infestations of varroa mites were the leading cause of death.
The mites were associated with more than 85 per cent of colony deaths.


http://digitaljournal.com/article/289275#ixzz267mazF1W[/url]
« Last Edit: September 10, 2012, 10:40:09 PM by Finski » Logged

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duck
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« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2012, 11:50:02 PM »

ive never seen a mite on my bees or in my oil trays. me America, me no have mites.   afro
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Finski
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« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2012, 12:02:45 AM »

ive never seen a mite on my bees or in my oil trays. me America, me no have mites.   afro

Jesus said:" Only sick needs healing".

There are places, where varroa has not infted bees.

50% of Norway is free from mites.

What we learn about this: if one has no mites, no one has mites

But truth is no that simple.

  
New International Version (©1984)
On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.

New Living Translation (©2007)
When Jesus heard this, he said, "Healthy people don't need a doctor--sick people do."

English Standard Version (©2001)
But when he heard it, he said, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But when Jesus heard this, He said, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

International Standard Version (©2008)
When Jesus heard that, he said, "Healthy people don't need a physician, but sick people do.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
But when Yeshua heard, he said to them, “The healthy do not need a doctor, but those who have become ill.”

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
When Jesus heard that, he said, "Healthy people don't need a doctor; those who are sick do.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

American King James Version
But when Jesus heard that, he said to them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

American Standard Version
But when he heard it, he said, They that are whole have no need of a physician, but they that are sick.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But Jesus hearing it, said: They that are in health need not a physician, but they that are ill.

Darby Bible Translation
But Jesus hearing it, said, They that are strong have not need of a physician, but those that are ill.

English Revised Version
But when he heard it, he said, They that are whole have no need of a physician, but they that are sick.

Webster's Bible Translation
But when Jesus heard that, he said to them, They that are in health need not a physician, but they that are sick.

Weymouth New Testament
He heard the question and replied, "It is not men in good health who require a doctor, but the sick.

World English Bible
When Jesus heard it, he said to them, "Those who are healthy have no need for a physician, but those who are sick do.

Young's Literal Translation
And Jesus having heard, said to them, 'They who are whole have no need of a physician, but they who are ill;
 
 
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yelnifok
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« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2012, 01:04:33 AM »

I wasn't going to jump in on this and I do not intend to start the fire- although that might be fun- but for now we realize that location, pest load, available forage etc. is different for each of us and each of us deals with these variables differently. Some article I was reading a while back said that we only knew @ 15% of what we needed to know about the honeybee. So that makes us all kind of a 'scientist' - to experiment. Therefore some will use chemical treatments and some will not. I have not put anything into mine since 2000 and I now feel confident that I have good healthy hygienic stock's in my colonies all with out the cost /frustration of chemicals. lee...
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Finski
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« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2012, 02:38:37 AM »

I have good healthy hygienic stock's in my colonies all with out the cost /frustration of chemicals. lee...

Bees have 32 known pest and diseases. What ever bees you have, your bees are not in safe.

Those diseases have evoluted before a human walked on earth.

You have healthy bees as long as they do not get disease. But uit does not mean that bees are all the time sick. It just happens, even if you are brightest beek in the world.

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Finski
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« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2012, 02:50:52 AM »

.

When I started beekeeping, I may say that I did not have diseases. But I remember the brood pattern what it was then and what it is now.

I had lots of diseases, but I did not identify them. Chalk brood I thought that it was molded pollen. Brood was porous and probably hives had EFB.
My German Black mongrels stand up the diseases but the hives were not brilliant. 15 - 20 kg honey in a summer was enough.

No one talked about 100- 200 kg honey per hive. Now colonies are 3 times bigger than 40 years ago.
I know that if 20% out of brood dies for some reason, the hive cannot gather surplus.

In our climate May is very important. If I have 10 frames brood, I have 4 box hive in main yield.
If I have 15 frames brood, I have 6 box hive in main yield. 6 boxes makes 120 kg honey and 4 boxes makes 40-60 kg honey. And the work around the year is the same.

If I have 3 frames brood in May, the half of main yield is gone before the hive is able to forage surplus.


Here is a COLOSS PROJECT. Do you think that guys whip their mouth only for fun.
No. They are fighting for their industry  

http://www.coloss.org/

List of COLOSS Partners 2009

http://www.hvms.gr/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=983%3Acoloss-project&catid=100%3Ahoneybees-hive-products&Itemid=159&lang=el

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T Beek
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« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2012, 06:51:10 AM »

Whatever Fin  rolleyes.  

Are you upset that my bees are varroa free, that my methods work

t

I am a new beekeeper, but I did a lot of research before I started.  If my bees were varroa free and I still had 50 % losses over seven years, I would probably reevaluate my beekeeping practices.

A survival rate above 50% (see above) isn't as bad as some (nubeeks) might think.  In fact; many of the beeks on these very pages have yet to achieve such a survival rate after repeated trys.  Many loose 'ALL' or the majority of their bees every winter.  

Perhaps some Beeks should wait until they've actually 'kept bees alive' over several winters before passing out judgement regarding another Beeks methods.  Perhaps.  Keep Reading  grin

t
« Last Edit: September 11, 2012, 07:31:26 AM by T Beek » Logged

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« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2012, 07:14:55 AM »

.
In this chain there are several styles which I met 40 years ago.

Guys did nothing to the hives. Two hives stood on back yard and the colony lived there like wild.
Then a guy took some honey and left the brood box untouched. Resason was, I suppose, that in that time bees were so mad that the gúys cannot look inside what is there.

Propably they feeded in autumn sugar the hives full .

If coloniy died, next summer arrived a swarm and inhabited the hive. So it went decades after decades.

Then came varroa, about 35 years ago. It killed all German Black bees and then there was no race which would continue the style "I need not to do anything"..

There were any more colonies which produced swarms.

I saw the last German Black hive about 1990.

But now, during last few years it seems that Carniolan race has formed viable colonies in empty houses. They send drones to mate my Italian queens. And Carniolan swarms exists on areas which have not beekeepers's hives.

Carniolans are not many because I do not meet them much in forest  flowers. German Blacks were evereywhere 30 years ago.




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« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2012, 07:41:14 AM »

Very interesting historical perspective Finski; 

I'm not certain if they're 'German Blacks' but I've noticed a steady increase in 'small black honeybees' in our area over the last few years.  With this years exceptional goldenrod flow they were all over it  Smiley

t
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Finski
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« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2012, 07:56:11 AM »

Very interesting historical perspective Finski; 

I'm not certain if they're 'German Blacks' but I've noticed a steady increase in 'small black honeybees' in our area over the last few years.  With this years exceptional goldenrod flow they were all over it  Smiley

t

Carniolan has a sharp abdomen and German B has a roundish abdomen.

There may be cross blooded bees too that you cannot know what they are.


I wonder if Russian bee has not escaped to nature. ....at least it has survived in East Siberia without humans´ help.

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bash70
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« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2012, 08:12:45 AM »

I am most definitely new to beekeeping.  I got my bees in April of this year.  I'm not here to dispute anyone's findings.  Whether your bees are doing great or failing untreated, it will always be your OPTION to treat.  Most here are driven by their personal experiences.  Since I am new, I was following this thread and thinking about my own options.  I would have to say that I will go with data that's been collected about a large number of colonies in an area over the individual beekeeper's experiences.  Why? because our personal experiences can differ from what's happening around the larger area.  It's just like the weather- if you're the one area that's getting some rain and not having any issues with dry weather.. awesome, but the "trend" this year has been drought.  As always, it's a person's choice.  No one should get attacked for having their own opinion or doing what they feel is right or advantageous for their colonies. 

-bash70
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« Reply #30 on: September 11, 2012, 08:30:01 AM »

As I like to say;  Much like politics, all Beekeeping is local  cool

t
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« Reply #31 on: September 11, 2012, 09:52:58 AM »

 No one should get attacked for having their own opinion or doing what they feel is right or advantageous for their colonies.  

-bash70

I suppose that varroa is the most researched bee disease during last 30 years.

Then someone comes and say: Don't worry about it. Never mind!
And you think that he is an idiot, but you cannot tell it to him?


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« Reply #32 on: September 11, 2012, 09:59:34 AM »

As I like to say;  Much like politics, all Beekeeping is local  cool

t


Except migrative beekeeping....

Ron Miksha tell in his book how he packed 400 hives onto truck and startmove  drive hives from Florida towards Canada's canola fields. And then in Autumn controversy.

Stahlman Apiaries- unloading bees


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mulesii
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« Reply #33 on: September 11, 2012, 10:23:23 AM »

Whatever Fin  rolleyes.  

Are you upset that my bees are varroa free, that my methods work

t

I am a new beekeeper, but I did a lot of research before I started.  If my bees were varroa free and I still had 50 % losses over seven years, I would probably reevaluate my beekeeping practices.

A survival rate above 50% (see above) isn't as bad as some (nubeeks) might think.  In fact; many of the beeks on these very pages have yet to achieve such a survival rate after repeated trys.  Many loose 'ALL' or the majority of their bees every winter.  

Perhaps some Beeks should wait until they've actually 'kept bees alive' over several winters before passing out judgement regarding another Beeks methods.  Perhaps.  Keep Reading  grin

t

I am not passing out judgement, I am just basing an opinion, but citing scientific research.  The Bee Informed Partnership noted 2011/12 Winter Honey Bee Losses at 21.9%, with the prior 5 years averaging 30%.  This is substantially less than 50% losses.  This is based upon the responses from 5,543 beekeepers.

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« Reply #34 on: September 11, 2012, 11:22:33 AM »

.
Those average percenst do do mean much.

Our spesialist told to me in phone" I must stop now. I go to look an experineced beekeepers whose 150 hives are dead, every single hive-

I lost 30% of my hives to varroa 2 winters ago.

In 2003/4 I lost 60%. Mites became Apistan resistant.

Last winter I did not lost any hives, but varroa diminished winter clusters so that  perhaps I had half of bees what I had in autumn.
Now I understand the reason. I have used only oxalic acid in winter since 2004, but it is not enough. It ought to be autumn treament too when hives rear their winter bees.
Long brood period douples mite load  every brood month.


Efficacy 96% meeans

- If mites are 10 000, after treatment they are alive 400. Only one brood cycle and mites are on critical level.

- 1000 mites, and 4% alive is 40 mites.  40- 80 - 160 - 320 - 640 - 1200

it takes 6 months that miteload achieves critical level.

But in practice  efficacy may be 70%.

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« Reply #35 on: September 11, 2012, 11:38:09 AM »

After too many years of research, debate and endless pontificatiing I believe I've discovered a while ago exactly what is causing honeybees the most problems.

Us  Sad.

I was an on and off again "beehaver" beginning in the mid 70's.  I only became a "beekeeper" within the last 10 years as I learned how to 'keep them alive.' They still have something to teach me with every visit to the yard  cool.

Again; a survival rate above 50% (my 7 year 'average') is something many beeks can only hope for, especially where winters are severe.  If my posts above were read completely  rolleyes most anyone would/should have noticed that my last year had a 100% survival rate.....until the BEAR attack, despite 6 strands of electric fence angry

t
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Finski
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« Reply #36 on: September 11, 2012, 11:53:18 AM »


Again; a survival rate ) is something many beeks can only hope for, especially where winters are severe.  

Our winter is so severe that we have not much alternatives to try tricks.
Especially our winter is long and bees cannot come out during 5-6 months. 

Natural beekeeping here is nonsense because Finland is not bee's natural environment.

Here farmers say "natural farmer" those who take care of their fields with left hand.

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T Beek
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Location: USA, N/W Wisconsin


« Reply #37 on: September 11, 2012, 12:16:34 PM »

Our winters are quite similar Finski.

If we only kept bees in their natural environment there would be very few Beeks (or honeybees) beyond the equator. 

That said; people have been successfully keeping (and having) bees 'naturally' in unfriendly environments for a very long time and will likely continue to do so.

t
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