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Author Topic: Oxalic acid and tracheal mites  (Read 8350 times)
Michael Bush
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« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2006, 07:32:41 PM »

Of course it would make a big difference if you are TRICKLING or EVAPORATING the oxalic acid.
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Michael Bush
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Jorn Johanesson
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« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2006, 05:37:35 AM »

Of course it would make a big difference if you are TRICKLING or EVAPORATING the oxalic acid.


I have tryed both and no! Only formic acid had the effect on thraceal mites. And by the way Evaporating take far to much time. Opening and tricling a hive takes only a few minutes.
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Cindi
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« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2006, 10:22:42 AM »

When I took beekeeping 1 and 2 with an instructor locally, he taught us to use oxalic acid in the spring.  In our area March 1 is when we applied it.  The sugar trickle method.  I trust this advice from my instructor.  He runs about 1,200 hives, has an incredible "love" of his bees, not just a soul that is working his bees for money.  His care and love shines through in everything that he does around his farm, very obvious.  I can only say good things about this man who was born in the Far East and has been in Canada for probably not more than 15 years.  Don't know why I went on about him, but that is what he/we use in spring.  In the fall we use formic acid, beginning of September after the honey is pulled off.  As stated before, formic acid treats many pest of the bees.  i.e., varroa mite, trachael mite, wax moth and chalkbrood.  It does quite a bit.

I had an experience with the actual inventor of the formic acid pad, his name his Bill Ruzick.  He lives in a city that is about 4 hours travel from our home, about 1/2 km from my daughter's house, whom we visit frequently.  Bill is an older man, a retired professor of university.  He travels worldwide extensively (and I mean north, south, east, west) lecturing and teaching about the use of the formic acid treatment for honeybee health issues (and maybe lectures about other topics as well, I don't know).  Right now he is somewhere is Africa I believe.  I had the opportunity to go to his farm in August of this past summer and be taught about how to use formic acid with the bees.  I left his farm feeling somewhat enlightened and have a firm believe in the power of formic acid.  Having only a few hives myself, I use the prefilled pads.  They are attached to the inside wall of the hive, the acid fumes are heavier than air, which drop to the bottom and pool, the bees are irritated by the smell and fan the fumes throughout the hives, killing the varroa and doing good stuff in the hive.   For the larger beekeeper, the prefilled pads would be probably too expensive, the unfilled pads can be filled at the apiary in a very short time and applied.  The cost per hive is very low, maybe 80 cents, I am not sure, but in Canada it is cheap. 

Yes, oxalic acid has been approved for use in Canada, we sometimes take so much longer in Canada for approval for stuff that has been in use in the U.S. for a long time.  We are somewhat behind the times I guess.

Do no take anything I have said as gospel, it is only my opinion on some very serious matters.  I am on a fight with the varroa mite, one day we will have rid ourselves of this pest.

Oh ya, by the way, there is another fellow that lives in a neighbouring community that runs a farm of honeybees too.  I have taken mini courses with him as well.  There has been funding approval for research to be done with breeding of varroa-resistant honeybees.  He is involved very deeply with this breeding program and should have his results in a couple of years.  I know nothing more of this at this point in time as I have not spoken with him recently.  But it sounds like they are doing great work.  This varroa is worse than a thorn in the side of beekeepers.  I have witnessed the damage personally with hive deprecation, loosing now probably 6 in total. 

My advice to any new beekeeper (and maybe seasoned ones as well), is to really be aware of the symptoms of this evil doer, I was not aware strongly enough personally, it was too late to save my hives before they entered their stage of doom, where I could do nothing to stop the damage done.  Learn about how to keep the hives healthy, #1 point in beekeeping in my opinion.  Great day all.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
Michael Bush
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« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2006, 10:45:00 AM »

I admit, I've never trickeled, but evaporating does not require lifting a single box and takes very little time.  Trickling looks to be much more labor intensive to me.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
Jorn Johanesson
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« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2006, 11:34:24 AM »

a few years ago I translated a Varroa report from Danish beekeeper society into english. You can read it here

http://apimo.dk/Varroa_report/varroa_report.html

even that heated OX varporise into formic I have not seen effect on the Tracheal mite.
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Cindi
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« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2006, 12:36:10 PM »

Jorn, wow, what a report to work on.  Good for you.

I wonder, like was said in an earlier post about the vapourizing of O.A., yes it produces formic acid.  BUT...maybe the concentration of formic acid is not high enough to admonish tracheal mite.  The formic acid treatment alone, is truly said to rid trachael mite (along with other problems).  There was such a plague involving the trachael mite with bees about 10 years (well up here anyways), that they worked really hard to find ways to get rid of the mite.  The problem is certainly not that it was so many years ago.  My opinion, I was not involved with bees then.  I know that during that time so many years ago I had investigated beekeeping, but got scared off due to the trachael mite problems.  It devastated the beekeeping industry here, I am sure that it was widespread to the U.S. and other places as well?  But I don't know for sure.  Great day. Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
Finsky
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« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2006, 01:21:11 PM »

When I took beekeeping 1 and 2 with an instructor locally, he taught us to use oxalic acid in the spring.  In our area March 1 is when we applied it. 


This is against advices what others say about trickling.

In the beginning of March hives in Finland have mostly palm size areas of brood. in South they are more. Even if trickling kills those few larvae in hives, it does not harm mites under cappings.

Look here Background Information: http://www.epa.gov/PESP/regional_grants/2005/R7-2005.htm

There are a good summary what we know about oxqlic acid. It is said " European investigators, Charri?re and Imdorf (2002) reported that trickling or spraying oxalic acid provided 93-99% control when a single application was made in the fall or early winter to broodless colonies.

Originally trickling method was resolved by Italians.

Difficulties in USA have in southern parts of country because hives have brood all the time. Same is with New Zealand.




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Cindi
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« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2006, 10:24:35 PM »

This is against advices what others say about trickling.

In the beginning of March hives in Finland have mostly palm size areas of brood. in South they are more. Even if trickling kills those few larvae in hives, it does not harm mites under cappings.

Look here Background Information: http://www.epa.gov/PESP/regional_grants/2005/R7-2005.htm

There are a good summary what we know about oxqlic acid. It is said " European investigators, Charri?re and Imdorf (2002) reported that trickling or spraying oxalic acid provided 93-99% control when a single application was made in the fall or early winter to broodless colonies.
Originally trickling method was resolved by Italians.

Difficulties in USA have in southern parts of country because hives have brood all the time. Same is with New Zealand.
[/quote]
Finsky, I appreciate you giving the site to look at regarding O.A. treatment.  I did, and read it thoroughly.  It will be good when the results will all be compiled of so many things.  I will have to agree without doubt what the article is indicating.  It sounds definitely that the O.A. should be applied to BROODLESS colonies.  There may have been a misunderstanding on my part before about treating in the spring, in March.  Yes, by that time Finsky, we do have considerable brood present.  I am under the very distinct impression, that O.A. must only be applied during the "no brood" time of year.  Understood.  In my climate here, we have a period of about December to January where the queen is dormant and does not lay eggs.  It is quite a short window.  I am of the belief that I should apply the acid trickle now.  This is the time NOW when there is no brood present.  The concern that I have is to disturb the hive as it is quite chilly outside, not near freezing, but it is standing about 8 celsius 46 F right now.

Do you think it is too cold to open the hive to do the trickle?  I am feeling a little confused about this entire issue now.  Hmm...Have an awesome day.  thank you all for input.  Cindi.
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
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« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2006, 11:46:42 PM »



I like to trickle when it is +4 celsius. Ican be done when it is -4 celsius but it is not nice to fingers.

When air is +8C, bees attach quite easily when you move the hand.
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Cindi
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« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2006, 11:53:31 PM »



I like to trickle when it is +4 celsius. Ican be done when it is -4 celsius but it is not nice to fingers.

When air is +8C, bees attach quite easily when you move the hand.

I don't understand what you mean by air +8 C, bees attach quite easily when you move the hand.  Sorry. Please elaborate.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
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« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2006, 12:27:50 AM »



I don't understand what you mean by air +8 C, bees attach quite easily when you move the hand.  Sorry. Please elaborate.  Cindi

When I move syrup syringe along frame gaps bees wake up and try to attach.  When it is cold they try to move deeper into hive. Last I had to use smoker when they attachde on my hat and hand.
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Cindi
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« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2006, 08:07:25 AM »

Finsky, so OK, it sounds like I will be doing this O.A. treatment, pdq.  It is about +7 C now, and may get a little warmer, I will wear my gloves, don't want the bees to attach.  Oh, Oh, I just realized that you may have been meaning that the bees were trying to ATTACK not ATTACH.  These two words are spelled almost the same, but mean different things.  I thought that you mean ATTACH, which means to cling to, ATTACK means that they were going after your hands to sting.  Our English language is rather confusing to anyone who tries to use it.  Please do not take offence.  I could not understand when you spoke about the bees ATTACHING, why they would attach and it did not make sense.  Now I understand what you were saying to me. I am sorry about the confusion on my part, it doe now make lots of sense.   it is again the English language.  Dratt!!!  You have a nice day Finsky.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
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« Reply #32 on: February 01, 2007, 08:30:02 AM »

"Understand from a chemist that this acid does not vapor right?"

Robo.. doing a Google search on "Heating Oxalic acid".. you'll come across that the rapid heating of Oxalic acid produces Formic Acid.  Finman has stated this also. 

But.. I also found..

"A good yield of formic acid cannot be obtained by merely heating oxalic acid, as a certain portion of the oxalic acid sublimes unchanged. The oxalic acid is therefore heated with glycerol when carbon dioxide and glyceryl monoformate are obtained, and the latter when boiled with water yields formic acid and glycerol"

More details from BEE-L

Quote
From: Donald Aitken
Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Formic and Oxalic acids
To: BEE-L

The physical properties of oxalic acid may be of interest in this
connection. The stuff one buys is usually oxalic acid dihydrate, which is a
crystal which has two water molecules attached to each oxalic acid molecule.
The CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics gives the following properties
for oxalic acid dihydrate:

On heating:

1) The water of hydration leaves at 101.5 degrees C. The water boils off
leaving anhydrous oxalic acid crystals.

2) At 157 degrees C the oxalic acid starts to sublime (goes directly from
solid to gas)

3) At 189 degrees C the oxalic acid which has not yet sublimed decomposes to
formic acid and carbon monoxide.

Best regards

Donald Aitken
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Cindi
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« Reply #33 on: February 01, 2007, 08:41:13 AM »

Interesting and good information.  Great day.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
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