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Author Topic: Oxalic acid and tracheal mites  (Read 10056 times)

Offline qa33010

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Oxalic acid and tracheal mites
« on: October 06, 2005, 06:05:20 AM »
I didn't see this on any searches.  Does oxalic acid have any effect on tracheal mites?

Thamks!

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Offline qa33010

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Oxalic acid and tracheal mites
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2005, 06:40:56 AM »
Never mind I found it on another site.  Thanks all!
Everyone said it couldn't be done. But he with a chuckle replied, "I won't be one to say it is so, until I give it a try."  So he buckled right in with a trace of a grin.  If he had a worry he hid it and he started to sing as he tackled that thing that couldn't be done, and he did it.  (unknown)

Offline oldwalt

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Oxalic acid and tracheal mites
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2006, 11:22:08 AM »
qa33010; What did you find out ?...I'd like to know as well........

Offline Jerrymac

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Oxalic acid and tracheal mites
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2006, 12:54:16 PM »
He found out that oxalic acid.....
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Offline qa33010

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Oxalic acid and tracheal mites
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2006, 01:28:54 AM »
Here is part of it.  Now I need to go back and check my notes.  This is an excerpt from Michael Bush on BeeSource when he was discussing what treatments he has and has not used (I'm going to check his new and improved site next before I dive into my notes) hope you don't mind Michael...

Tracheal Mites
Tracheal mites (Acarapis woodi) are too small to see with the naked eye. If you want to check for them you need a microscope. Not a really powerful one, but you still need one. You’re not looking to see the details of a cell, just a creature that is quite small. Tracheal mites reproduce in young bees 1 to 2 days old. A common control for them is a grease patty (sugar and cooking grease mixed to make a patty) because it masks the smell that the tracheal mites use to find a young bee. If they can’t find young bees they can’t reproduce. Menthol is commonly used to kill the Tracheal mites. FGMO and (by some accounts) Oxalic acid will also kill them. Breeding for resistance and small cell are also useful. The theory on the small cell helping is that the spiracles (the openings into the trachea) that the bees breathe through are smaller and the mites can’t get in. More research is needed on this subject. But basically, I just use small cell and they don’t seem to be a problem.
Everyone said it couldn't be done. But he with a chuckle replied, "I won't be one to say it is so, until I give it a try."  So he buckled right in with a trace of a grin.  If he had a worry he hid it and he started to sing as he tackled that thing that couldn't be done, and he did it.  (unknown)

Offline Michael Bush

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Oxalic acid and tracheal mites
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2006, 08:20:42 AM »
As I said.  "by some accounts".  I'm still interested in a definitive study that says that Oxalic acid vapor DOES kill tracheal mites.  Some say it does and it's hard to imagine that it wouldn't.
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Offline Brian D. Bray

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Oxalic acid and tracheal mites
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2006, 06:57:14 AM »
Menthol being another treatment for trachea mites who has tried it?  I'm experimenting with growing mint in my bee yard.  I have a creek overflowing with it and a transplant was easy.  It's hardy and spreads like a weed but since mint contains a natural menthol I thought it worth a try.
I occassionally break off a sprig and lay on top the top frames.
The bees I have are either trachea mite resistant or the mint along the creek was already working.
Some others might want to try mint and see what happens as I don't think my experiment is really valid due to the existing close proximity of the mint to the hives.
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Offline Michael Bush

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Oxalic acid and tracheal mites
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2006, 04:15:03 PM »
>Menthol being another treatment for trachea mites who has tried it?

Not I.
Michael Bush
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Offline Brian D. Bray

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Oxalic acid and tracheal mites
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2006, 03:41:44 AM »
Parallel discusion on general topics entitled Varroa mites and rhubard?
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Offline latebee

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Oxalic acid and tracheal mites
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2006, 10:47:25 AM »
As far as tracheal mites go formic acid controls them if properly applied. Formic acid is a naturally occuring element in the insect world,and is used by the organic beekeepers. I really believe in it, as it packs a one-two punch--varroa and tracheal knockdown.
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Offline limyw

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Oxalic acid and tracheal mites
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2006, 12:23:17 PM »
Here I can only get Oxalic acid in solid powder form, so how can I use it to kill mite? Understand from a chemist that this acid does not vapor right?
lyw

Offline Robo

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Oxalic acid and tracheal mites
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2006, 12:43:20 PM »
Quote from: limyw
Here I can only get Oxalic acid in solid powder form, so how can I use it to kill mite? Understand from a chemist that this acid does not vapor right?


trickle (drip) or vaporize

http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/research/oxalic/oxalic-0-nf.htm
http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/research/oxalic/oxalic-1-nf.htm

I vaporize with the JB600 this with great success.
http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/Vaporizer.htm
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Offline kensfarm

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Re: Oxalic acid and tracheal mites
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2006, 10:31:55 AM »
"Understand from a chemist that this acid does not vapor right?"

Robo.. doing a Google search on "Heating Oxalic acid".. you'll come across that the rapid heating of Oxalic acid produces Formic Acid.  Finman has stated this also. 

But.. I also found..

"A good yield of formic acid cannot be obtained by merely heating oxalic acid, as a certain portion of the oxalic acid sublimes unchanged. The oxalic acid is therefore heated with glycerol when carbon dioxide and glyceryl monoformate are obtained, and the latter when boiled with water yields formic acid and glycerol"
« Last Edit: November 02, 2006, 10:39:03 AM by kensfarm »

Offline Cindi

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Re: Oxalic acid and tracheal mites
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2006, 11:07:19 AM »
Look up formic acid on the internet, particularly a site "Mite-Gone".  This is an amazing product that is naturally found in nature, as is oxalic acid.  With formic acid (if done correctly) has no ill effects on bees.  It is probably one of the best ways to combat some bee problems.  You will see that it combats Varroa mites, tracheal mites, chalkbrood, wax moth problems and so on.  It is worth looking into it and finding out if this is a product that you would like to use.  There is a myriad of information on the internet and many suppliers.  The pads release formic acid fumes, which is heavier than air and sinks to the bottom of the hive, the bees fan to get rid of these fumes and this kills the varroa mite quickly and efficiently.  Search the internet, my best advice, and this is from an unseasoned beekeeper, who is doing her homework.  Oxalic acid is good too, but I think formic acid is easier and activates and deactivates, depending on the bees activities with fanning in the hive.  Meaning, if they are clustering keeping warm, the treatment is on hold, when they get busy and fan, the treatment goes off hold.  If any seasoned beekeepers have a differing opinion, I would love to hear, as I am new mostly (only 2 years keeping bees) and I love advice from good sources.
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Offline Finsky

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Re: Oxalic acid and tracheal mites
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2006, 12:07:11 PM »
Here is Finnsh concept to handle varroa. We have no problems with that creature any more.

Heating of oxalic acid generates formic adic.

There are 2 parts in handling:

1) killig mites with vapur when bees have brood and outer temperature is high.  Idea is kill mites so that they do not violate wintering bees. Efficiency is 70%.
2) Second and final cure with trickling when all brood have emerged . Efficiency is high because all mites are on bees.

I use only trickling because my mite level is very low in summer.

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These methods have generated in Europe and tested to each country that they work. Testing in Finland took 3 years. Our authors are  professionals in beekeping.
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Offline Robo

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Re: Oxalic acid and tracheal mites
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2006, 02:30:54 PM »
Robo.. doing a Google search on "Heating Oxalic acid".. you'll come across that the rapid heating of Oxalic acid produces Formic Acid.  Finman has stated this also. 

But.. I also found..

"A good yield of formic acid cannot be obtained by merely heating oxalic acid, as a certain portion of the oxalic acid sublimes unchanged. The oxalic acid is therefore heated with glycerol when carbon dioxide and glyceryl monoformate are obtained, and the latter when boiled with water yields formic acid and glycerol"

I guess that would depend on the definition of "rapid heating".  But hey if that is the case then vaporizing should be the better method.  It should work with capped brood too then, just like formic acid.  Right?

Look up formic acid on the internet, particularly a site "Mite-Gone".  This is an amazing product that is naturally found in nature, as is oxalic acid.  With formic acid (if done correctly) has no ill effects on bees.  It is probably one of the best ways to combat some bee problems.  You will see that it combats Varroa mites, tracheal mites, chalkbrood, wax moth problems and so on.

Cindi - keep in mind your source. Mite-Gone is trying to sell a product, so of course they have nothing but great things to say about it.  Oxi-Clean is a miracle cleaner too, just ask Billy Mays....

Go to the evaporator manfucture website and you'll see their claim "The best , easiest and effectives way to control the Varroa mites."
http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/Vaporizer.htm

That said,  I think oxalic and formic are both effective and it just comes down to person preference.  If everyone liked vanilla, they wouldn't make chocolate.

I find spending 15 minutes once a year vaporizing works best for me.  No mixing or worrying about spilling acid or worrying about the temperature or making a second trip to remove the waste.  Oxalic acid is available locally and is cheap.  So yes I spent a little more up front for the vaporizor, but a $4 container of oxalic acid will last me a decade or more.  Formic acid is regulated and difficult to get here in the US unless you by the pre-packaged stuff at top dollar.

Canada has now approved the use of oxalic acid.  Both liquid and vaporizing. http://www.honeycouncil.ca/users/folder.asp?FolderID=5204
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Offline joanne

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Re: Oxalic acid and tracheal mites
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2006, 03:12:25 PM »


I asked the Tech Transfer Specialist from the Ontario Beekeepers' Association re oxalic and tracheal.  She responded by saying that in all of the work she has read, oxalic has no effect on tracheal mites.

Offline kensfarm

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Re: Oxalic acid and tracheal mites
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2006, 03:47:25 PM »
"I guess that would depend on the definition of "rapid heating".  But hey if that is the case then vaporizing should be the better method.  It should work with capped brood too then, just like formic acid.  Right?"

I agree.. wouldn't that be the best of both worlds.  I wonder how just sprinkling some OA on your smoker fuel would do?  I've been experimenting on using BuckWheat(high in OA) as a smoker fuel..  I did get some serious mite drops(hundreds) on one test.. combined w/ a powder sugar treatment.  The next test was smoking only.. 

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Oxalic acid and tracheal mites
« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2006, 08:50:16 PM »
>She responded by saying that in all of the work she has read, oxalic has no effect on tracheal mites.

If there is any literature to support that I'd like to see it.  I have not been able to find a definitive answer whether it does or does not, but have heard some reports from beekeepers that say it does.

Since I never treat for tracheal mites anyway, and have no problems with them, I couldn't say if the oxalic adic made any difference when I used it several years ago.
Michael Bush
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Re: Oxalic acid and tracheal mites
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2006, 03:25:04 PM »
To my best  knowlegde OX have no effect while Formic have. There are more bennifit in using formic in spring. : It also kills varroa in capped cells. And is not conterminating honey and wax.