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Author Topic: Ammo  (Read 3547 times)
bluegrass
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« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2012, 05:25:33 PM »

Where I hunt is thick brush, steep hills and ravines. Your viability may be 100 ft tops and when you take a shot it is usually at a moving target. Sighting in on a bench with 3-4 rounds doesn't cut it if you want to put a deer in the freezer. The gun needs to be an extension of yourself, you need to know how it feels swinging onto target and know what kind of clearance you have and what your capability is with it. That only comes with Practice... Lots of it.

My primary deer guns are a 45/70 (fowl weather gun) 35 Remington for the good days. And a 44 mag when I want a real challenge. I always have the 44 with me, the other two I switch back and forth between.
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« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2012, 09:29:30 PM »

Seeing that at selected Army posts in the old West, the US army gave free ".45/70 Government" ammo to any settler who claimed he was a buffalo hunter, I find your choice of the .45/70 Government loading ...well dejavu. 

The idea behind free .45/70 Government (Army) ammo was to starve the Great Plains Indians either to death or else into submission by decimating the buffalo herds they depended on for food.  US Army General in Chief William Tecumseh Sherman  infamously said, "The only good Indian is a dead Indian," and the following, "The more Indians we can kill this year the fewer we will need to kill the next, because the more I see of the Indians the more convinced I become that they must either all be killed or be maintained as a species of pauper ...!"  --WTS 

I am not saying that our government would engage in either genocide or ethnic cleansing in the manner Sherman employed between 1861 and his retirement from the Army, but these ammo purchases do make one wonder if someone is not planning on cutting the sodbusters and buffalo hunters out of the loop if there ever is a next time. 
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bluegrass
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« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2012, 05:04:43 PM »

The gun I speak of is a Custer era trapdoor... I don't know it's history but it has 5 "kill marks" cut into the stock. I don't know if those are for people or deer, but it is an amazing piece of history to hold... and wonder who held it before me and what they did with it.... what stories does it not tell?
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kingbee
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« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2012, 03:59:10 PM »

A .45/70 Government cartrage is a very powerful loading, especially 140 years ago during the black powder era.  The long range power and accuracy plus the availability of army ammo IMHO played an important part in the .45/70 Government rimfire metallic cartridge displacing the .52 Sharps paper cartridge as the ammo of choice for buffalo hunters.

But since your trap door Springfield rifle burns black powder or at least it is engineered to only burn black powder I find your choice of a trap door rim fire black powder gun for inclement weather unusual.  If you are using modern smokeless powders I don't think I need to remind you that the first man who substituted smokeless powder grain for grain for black powder in a trap door Springfield likely earned himself an unflattering politically incorrect nickname, like Blinker, or Cyclops.  

Thanks for bringing up the .45/70 Government cartridge, and Indian Fighter extraordinaire, Lt. Colonel G. A. Custer.  That led to me dredging up some of the unsavory details I heard about the Plains Indians' wars like government ammo issued to what can only be viewed by Native Americans as pro-government civilian militias.

So just how many of these new pistol or submarine gun rounds do you think may or will find their way into the hands of pro-government militias or "special action teams" in case of wide spread civil unrest?  On the other hand how many rounds may or will fall into the hands of antigovernment militias in the case of civilian unrest?  And if there is a legameant reason for the Weather Service to employ deadly force (Like to keep baby fur seals or land crabs from overrunning the WS's more isolated outposts) I think an armed Coast Guard or Navy security detail would provide better protection at lower cost.  

So why buy such large amounts of ammo if say the Social Security Administration ready doesn't have an armed force in place to need or use this ammo.

EPA Official Compares Agency Enforcement to Roman Crucifictions


Don't fret for this latter day Roman Legionair.  His former boss created a green job for him and he landed on his feet running. He is now employed at the Sierra Club.  Do any of you think that this ammo is not intended for use by or on the orders of people like the one depicted in the above video, if you believe that please explain your reasons.  
« Last Edit: August 23, 2012, 04:40:19 PM by kingbee » Logged
bluegrass
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« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2012, 05:25:47 PM »

I use the trapdoor for bad weather because of it's open sights. The .35 rem is scoped and pretty compared to the Springfield so she stays in when it is nasty out. I shoot modern 45/70 govt rounds through the Springfield. They are light loads made for the old guns, no BP in them.

Depending on where a weather station or ship is located, the Coast Guard may be hrs away, or even not in their jurisdiction. These ammo purchases are at the request of Homeland Security. I think the conspiracy theory's can be dispelled. This is just promotion of Agencies taking control of their own security needs to a point. Any American asset is a target for terrorism... If we have a multi million dollar research ship with American crew out alone in the ocean and without security.... it could become a sitting duck. Just keeping the basis covered nothing more.
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kingbee
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« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2012, 12:12:14 AM »

... Depending on where a weather station or ship is located, the Coast Guard may be hrs away, or even not in their jurisdiction...

If these hypothetical weather ships had a Coast Guard detail on board they would be Johnny on the spot in case of trouble and could also act as ships crew.  If it was a land station and it had armed Federal government employees among the staff I fail to see (And I doubt a foreign government would either) any difference.  It almost seems like the government is claiming they're arming weather satellites to protect them from Klingons. 

Coast Guard types are already law enforcement agents.  Let one of them catch you on a TVA or Army Corps of Engineering lake without an approved life presever and then try and tell the judge that the Coast Guard can't enforce laws, keep the peace, or pass out attitude adjustments when the need arises.   
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bluegrass
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« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2012, 07:46:57 AM »

In my experience the Coast Guard doesn't staff any vessel except a Coast Guard or Naval Vessel.

So Purchase 16000 rounds of ammunition and arming personnel who are already in place is a bad idea to you? You would rather hire extra Coast Guardsmen, pay to put them through the Academy or TRACEN Cape May. Pay their salary for a minimum of 4 years, or greater than 20 and then pay their Pension and likely GI bill? Station them on ships or stations that don't belong to the Agency they signed up to serve in (that would go over like a fart in Church) I would have been severely POed if I was told that my assignment was to a weather ship. I went ion the Coast Guard to actually see some excitement... not stand watch on a boat full of scientists.
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bernsad
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« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2012, 07:49:42 AM »

Hey, those scientists can get a bit rowdy at times!
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VolunteerK9
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« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2012, 09:29:12 AM »

In this day and age, I wouldnt blame anyone from being armed-government employee or not. And if they are going to carry, I would at least like them to be proficient in what they are carrying.  It wasnt that long ago that a different Fed agency ,the IRS , was sending armed "revenuers"  into the woods chasing illegal corn squeezers. Me and the wife went and watched 'The Campaign' at the movies the other night-and due to the recent events in Colorado, my Sig went with me.

A FMJ will not have the same feel as a duty +P+ round when fired no matter what caliber it is. I wouldnt expect anyone to practice with something like a .22 then be handed a .45 and be proficient with it in a high stress situation. Every round that doesnt hit what you are aiming at lands in Federal Court. Give me what I would be shooting in a real situation so I can become better with it-save the other for paper punchers.
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kathyp
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« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2012, 09:31:22 AM »

Quote
I would have been severely POed if I was told that my assignment was to a weather ship. I went ion the Coast Guard to actually see some excitement..

not so long ago that would have been a funny statement.  now, i guess chasing down drug subs can be a little exciting   Wink.

ever read this series?  might give you a new take on guarding science ships!!   evil

After America  by John Birmingham
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
kathyp
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« Reply #30 on: August 24, 2012, 09:36:06 AM »

Quote
A FMJ will not have the same feel as a duty +P+ round when fired no matter what caliber it is. I wouldnt expect anyone to practice with something like a .22 then be handed a .45 and be proficient with it in a high stress situation. Every round that doesnt hit what you are aiming at lands in Federal Court. Give me what I would be shooting in a real situation so I can become better with it-save the other for paper punchers.

having fired off a few of both, i know this is not an issue with a hand gun.  if you are using the thing within the range of accuracy, that slight difference is not going to matter unless you are maybe stupid enough to go for a head shot on a moving target.

thing is, if you want to practice with expensive ammo, that's fine.  your money.  if they want to do it with my  money, not so cool.  how many are just doing qualifying fam fire and then go sit behind a desk? 

front line jobs, snipers, that kind of stuff...use what you want to use.  everyone else is wasting ammo and money if they aren't playing with the cheap(er) stuff. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
bluegrass
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« Reply #31 on: August 24, 2012, 10:20:21 AM »

Kathy
I think you are being obstinate just for the sake of being so. I was issued a Beretta as my side arm when I was active duty. The ammo I was issued was always the same regardless of whether I was on Patrol or at the range.

It makes no sense to target practice with anything other than the service ammo. Cheaper or not. And we don't know what contract the Government has with the manufacturer, so we really can't comment on the cost.
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kathyp
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« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2012, 10:32:32 AM »

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I think you are being obstinate just for the sake of being so

probably  grin

it just ticks me off that our government thinks nothing of wasting our money on all things, big and small.  this is a small thing, but if you took all the small things and added them up....

i must be older than you are.  sorry you got that crappy Beretta.  9mm?  evil  in my day, we got a colt .45 and it was an awesome weapon.  and they didn't use hollow points on the range!
   Wink
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
bluegrass
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« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2012, 11:31:10 AM »

Watching the news? Mayor Bloomberg just said that the additional 9 victims were hit by NYPD fire when they took the suspect down. Should have been shooting hollow points.

The .45 colt was replaced in the 1980s so if you were issued one... you are much older than me. I was in in 97-2001

Funny how people jump to conclusions. Early witness reports stated that the weapon was a automatic rifle or shot gun, much larger than a hand gun. Police Commissioner Ray Kelly just reported that the weapon was a 1911 .45 rolleyes
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kathyp
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« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2012, 12:13:58 PM »

yes, i am much older.  i was still in when the switch was made, but because i was with the Marines (corpseman, per our prez), we were able to keep the .45 if we wished.  there came a time when that was not supposed to be an option, but.....

the 9mm switch was a NATO deal.  it never made sense except to NATO members who seemed not to really want to kill anyone....or to use a great deal of ammo trying!
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
bluegrass
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« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2012, 12:47:06 PM »

I like the 1911, but it was 70 year old technology at that point and was well over due for an upgrade. Custer died at little big horn because he was issued old technology and the Native tribes had Winchester repeaters.

They could have made a better choice than the Beretta probably, but I had no complaints with it.
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kingbee
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« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2012, 03:09:05 PM »

Custer died at the Little Bighorn because he had an ego bigger than all of Montana and half of Canada.  You may well say that Light Colonel George Armstrong Custer had "Toxic Ego Syndrome." 

The tragedy is the 219 innocent members (out of 220) of his command that Custer dragged with him to their doom.  Before the battle began a French-Indian guide and interpreter Mitch Bouyer told Lt. Reno and Bentine that all of Custer's command would die that day if Custer attacked.   Shortly afterward Bouyer dismissed his Crow Indian scouts telling them to rejoin and stay with the supply train or else go home.  Mitchel Bouyer rejoined Lt. Colonel Custer and was one of the last men in the Lt. Colonel's command to die.  You can see Boyer's monument stone today on the banks of the river at the bottom of Custer Hill were Bouyer's remains were found. 

Thirty three years earlier another aboregional people taught the British the same bloody lesson in Afghanistan when an army of poorly armed Afghanans totally wiped out a British Army that was better armed than the natives, but numbered only 12,000 to 15,000 men weak.  The national security mistake we are committing is depending on expensive weapons systems similar to what the German Army did during WWII to compensate for weakness in numbers.  In other words we are copying the stradegy of the loosers.  You may look at West Point and the other Service Acadmies as America's war colleges, but in reality they are our schools of coming hard knocks.
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Joe D
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« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2012, 03:38:36 PM »

I wouldn't trade my 45 for several 9mm's.  When you shoot someting with the 45 it goes down.  I also put good scopes on my rifles Leopol 3x9x50, had the triggers smoothed by a gun smith and a lowered pull on my semi auto 06, now 2 1/2 #pull.  They shoot fine.


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kathyp
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« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2012, 04:37:07 PM »

our major mistake is that we have forgotten one of Sun Tzu's  pieces of advice, which was to bring the enemy onto territory favorable to your own fighting force.

we did that by inviting AQ to Iraq and it was fairly successful.  we were never going to route them out of the caves of Afghanistan and Pakistan.   
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
kingbee
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« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2012, 10:59:51 PM »

... Mayor Bloomberg just said that the additional 9 victims were hit by NYPD fire when they took the suspect down...


I would bet that the NYPD were shooting hollow points.  It would have been much better if NYC's finest had been hitting what they were shooting at the first time every time.  The perp according to my media information was using a .25 Caliber pocket pistol.  Likely similar to the one I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread.  Hollow point projectiles riccochey almost as badly as hardball ammo.  Besides hollow points fracture easly causing multiple wounds to multiple victims.  The only way to limit collateral damage is to fire low velocity fragable ammo, not always the best tactic.
http://www.answers.com/topic/frangible-bullet
but above all you need to hit what your aiming at.

Maybe the Obama Administration intended this ammo to be used by the NYPD.  The good lord knows they and other departments need the practice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amadou_Diallo
In 1999 4 NYPD officers fired a total of 41 rounds to kill one man, Amadou Diallo who proved to be unarmed.

In 2004 Officers unloaded their weapons, firing 120 shots at Winston Hayes. Four bullets ended up hitting Hayes who survived, one hit a deputy sheriff, 11 rounds hit patrol cars and 11 more rounds hit five homes in the neighborhood (one of them ended up tearing a hole in a homeowner's hat)." —ABC News.[11]

2006: Three officers fired 26 shots at a pit bull that had bitten a chunk out of an officer’s leg…  I guess the reason it required so much ammo was because the officers had to put down fire covering so the other officers could outflank the pit bull.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_Bell_shooting_incident
In 2006 five of NYC’s finest, all dressed in civilian duds and some of whom were drinking at the time, needed 51 rounds to kill 1 unarmed innocent man while wounding 2 other unarmed innocent men who were sitting in a motionless car at close range.

http://gothamist.com/2011/09/07/nypd_fired_73_bullets_in_brooklyn_s.php
In September 2011 the NYPD fired 73 rounds to wound 1 Crown Heights murder suspect.  A innocent by stander also died.  The NYPD is doing ballistics test to try and determine who fired the shot that killed the by stander.  No word yet on the outcome.

Someone help me out here.  I seem to remember an even worst incident 20 years ago where NYC police fired 100 rounds  (+/-) to bring down one man but also wounded or killed one or more bystanders.   I think an abandoned store building was the scene.

Maybe the Obama Administration intended this ammo to be used by the NYPD.  The good lord knows they and other departments need the practice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amadou_Diallo
In 1999 4 NYPD officers fired a total of 41 rounds to kill one man, Amadou Diallo who proved to be unarmed.

In 2004 Officers unloaded their weapons, firing 120 shots at Winston Hayes. Four bullets ended up hitting Hayes who survived, one hit a deputy sheriff, 11 rounds hit patrol cars and 11 more rounds hit five homes in the neighborhood (one of them ended up tearing a hole in a homeowner's hat)." —ABC News.[11]

2006: Three officers fired 26 shots at a pit bull that had bitten a chunk out of an officer’s leg…  I guess the reason it required so much ammo was because the officers had to put down fire covering so the other officers could outflank the pit bull.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_Bell_shooting_incident
In 2006 five of NYC’s finest, all dressed in civilian duds and some of whom were drinking at the time, needed 51 rounds to kill 1 unarmed innocent man while wounding 2 other unarmed innocent men who were sitting in a motionless car at close range.

http://gothamist.com/2011/09/07/nypd_fired_73_bullets_in_brooklyn_s.php
In September 2011 the NYPD fired 73 rounds to wound 1 Crown Heights murder suspect.  A innocent by stander also died.  The NYPD is doing ballistics test to try and determine who fired the shot that killed the by stander.  No word yet on the outcome.

Someone help me out here.  I seem to remember an even worst incident in NY where the police fired almost 100 rounds (I think) to bring down one man but also wounded or killed one or more bystanders.   

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