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Author Topic: Ammo  (Read 3529 times)
kingbee
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« on: August 17, 2012, 08:38:51 PM »

You would think that a bingo hall full of geezers couldn’t remember where they hid their weapons little less how to use them on Social Security personnel.  Well maybe not.

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/social-security-administration-explains-plan-buy-174000-hollow-point-bullets
This is just the tip of the spear our current president is sharpening to use against you.

Do you good people remember this clip from the 2008 Presidential Camp gain?

Obama Civilian Security


Folks, as Bob Dylan said, "The times they are a-changing…" but not for the better.

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kathyp
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« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2012, 11:12:02 PM »

one of the explanations for the massive ammo purchases what they they needed to have enough for target practice so the agents could stay qualified.  they are also buying for two different and higher caliber weapons that they have issued in the past.

even if what they say is true, there is something very wrong with this.  come on shooters.  you can spot it.  hint:  it's along the line of 90 dollar hammers.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2012, 11:32:45 PM »

I think that was $600 hammers.  Anyway I think the hammers were Titanium and they were intended for use by maintenance personell working in ICBM missile silos.  Titanium hammers will not strike a spark during use or if dropped.  A spark could ignite an ICBM missle and the heat plume could be mistaken from space for a US nuclear first strike against the USSR, causing an immediate Soviet nuclear counter strike.  Considering the alternative, $600 seems a bargain.
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« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2012, 11:56:35 PM »

Kingbee, where did you come up with the idea that a titanium hammer will not spark and set of an ICBM?

This from a titanium framing hammer sold on amazon:
“be aware that it (the hammer) will spark if chipped”.
http://www.amazon.com/Stiletto-TI14MC-14-OunceTitanium-Framing-Hammer/dp/product-description/B00002265Y

I think I would be more worried about ESD setting one of the dang things off, than a falling $600 hammer.
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kathyp
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« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2012, 11:03:31 AM »

ammo, folks.  hollow points.  target practice. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2012, 04:17:10 PM »

You use wad cutters for target practice. better known as dum-dums. also the non-sparking hammers are Berilium copper.
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bluegrass
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« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2012, 05:18:58 PM »

Law enforcement and military use the ammo that they use in real situations for target practice. A hollow points tragectory is different from a FMJ or SPRN. It doesn't work to target practice with the round you will not be firing in a real life situation.

If you are in the business of Forging SS Cards and selling them to illegal Immigrants it is a pretty safe bet that the SS agents need to be armed when they come through your front door.

Now lets do a little math here.
174000 rounds /50 per box= 3480 boxes
3480 boxes / 295 officers =11 boxes each.
Not even 1 box per agent per month.

They should have bought 10 times that much... When I target practice for a single day I go through 4-5 boxes... And that is just to get on target for deer season. I am not practicing for a shoot out with a criminal in an urban environment where innocent bi-standers could be involved.
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« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2012, 09:05:11 PM »

... Kingbee, where did you come up with the idea that a titanium hammer will not spark... This from a titanium framing hammer sold on amazon... “be aware that it (the hammer) will spark if chipped”...

Three "Whys" come to mind.

Why even mention "...will spark if chipped" unless there is a titanium coating on the hammer that can be damaged or chipped, resulting in a metal becoming exposed that will strike sparks.  

Why even mention that if the prespective buyers of said hammer aren't expecting a non-sparking tool?

Why in the Samhill would anyone want a Titanium claw hammer?  That sucker would be so light that you would have to swing it with both hands to generate enough kinetic energy to drive a frame nail.  angel   grin
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kingbee
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« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2012, 09:13:32 PM »

... the non-sparking hammers are Berilium copper.

That makes better sense.  At least they're heavy enough to hammer with.
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kathyp
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« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2012, 10:36:43 PM »

Quote
Law enforcement and military use the ammo that they use in real situations for target practice. A hollow points tragectory is different from a FMJ or SPRN. It doesn't work to target practice with the round you will not be firing in a real life situation.

bull.  handguns are only good at short distances.  any slight difference in trajectory, is not an issue.  it's not like you are going for head shots when you take someone down.   very few law enforcement ever have to shoot at someone.  all of them need to spend a lot of time on the range.  hollow points are expensive.  in the grand scheme of government waste, this is probably small, but still a waste. 

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2012, 06:15:16 AM »

Quote
Law enforcement and military use the ammo that they use in real situations for target practice. A hollow points tragectory is different from a FMJ or SPRN. It doesn't work to target practice with the round you will not be firing in a real life situation.

bull.  handguns are only good at short distances.  any slight difference in trajectory, is not an issue.  it's not like you are going for head shots when you take someone down.   very few law enforcement ever have to shoot at someone.  all of them need to spend a lot of time on the range.  hollow points are expensive.  in the grand scheme of government waste, this is probably small, but still a waste. 

Yes hollow points do cost more... about double per round on average. But a FMJ goes right through a person, the TV and Wall and into other people. A hollow point flattens on impact and stops where it hits first. So that extra 20 cents or so per round is money wells pent when you compare it to the millions the government is going to pay out to the parents of the 5 year old kid from down the street who happened to be sleeping over that night.

It looks to me that this is a prime example of money well spent. They bought very few rounds all things considered. Ammo has a shelf life. In the Military we practiced with the stuff on the verge of expiring. The 50 cals we had could burn through 500.00 in ammo a minute (that is in the 90s) we could easily use up 10s of thousands of dollars of ammo at the range in a few hrs.
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« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2012, 11:21:25 AM »

i don't have a problem with hollow points for out on the job.  i have a problem using them for target practice.  i, too, can shoot through many round on the range.  i don't use hollow points to practice though.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2012, 12:39:53 PM »

Very easy to buy the most expensive when you are not spending your own money, and it is coming from a seemingly endless supply.
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« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2012, 01:10:47 PM »

I had a friend on the SBI (NC) when he qualified with his .38special he only used 6 rounds to qualify. He brought me the remainder of the box , they were wad cutters or dumdums  FOR qualifying...
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kingbee
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« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2012, 02:25:06 PM »

During WWII one Russian NKVD officer supposedly killed 7,000 Polish POWs for Russian Dictator Joseph Stalin. He Used a .25 caliber Walter pocket pistol likely a model 9, it only took him 28 days to murder 7,000 men, all one at a time and up close and personal.  One shot, one kill.

Stalin's reason for ordering this slaughter is similar to Hitler's motives for his death camps, the removal of all elite (Counter Revolutionary) elements that stood in the way of an International Socialist (Communist) takeover of Poland much like Hitler feared counter revolution against his National Socialist (Nazi) during WWII.  It must also be remembered that after WWI Poland badly defeated the USSR in an earlier war.  Stalin was taking no chances on it happening again.  I guess in Stalin's case revenge IS a dish best eaten cold.

If there is ever any reason for the Social Security Administration to conduct a raid on a Social Security Card forgery ring in China, SEAL Team 6 would be the better force to employ, not a gaggle of trigger happy bean counters popping Rogain and Viagra.  At any rate, what is the problem with the Social Security Administration, or the EPA, or the Department of Fisheries, or the ATF, or the DHLS, or the IRS or even the National Weather Service asking the FBI or local law enforcement agencies to supply the muscle to conduct raids?  

http://truthfrequencynews.com/national-weather-service-follows-dhs-in-huge-ammo-purchase/
Now what use does the National Weather Service have for hollow point ammo?  Are they are going to fight on the cold front or arrest a Hurricane?

The problem is that whoever is the head of these Federal agencies are getting off on having his or her own personal army, complete with conventional crew served weapons.  The CF that erupted in the aftermath of both the Ruby Ridge tragedy, and the Waco, Texas Branch Davidian raid are prime arguments for letting the FBI or local Po-Po do it.  There must be a reason that the President didn't send Hartford, Connecticut National Guard troops to Pakistan to take out bin Laden.  

It is a violation of the Geneva Convention for the Department of Homeland Security to fire even a hollow point warning shot over the head of an al Quida terrorist.  Nation states may only use hollow point ammo to either mangle or kill their own citizens, its the law. How don't you feel privileged?
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« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2012, 04:42:23 PM »

Once again an example of an agency going beyond it's intention. Social Security is not law enforcement. What next,the Department of Transportation arming against unlicensed drivers?  Well,only if they are legal residents.
Let enforcing laws up to the law enforcement people. Every agency does not need to be armed,especially if they are trying to limit guns law abiding citizens may have. I really do not think the issue is cost so much as why do they have guns!!

In the video Obama talks of a "civilian" force just as strong and well funded as our regular military. Quite disturbing if you ask me.
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« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2012, 04:50:23 PM »

May be if he looses the election he is going to turn Al Roker loose on the nation. shocked
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« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2012, 07:17:54 PM »

... May be ...he is going to turn Al Roker loose on the nation....

Mr. President you can boil me in oil, you can knock my block clean off... but please, please, please don't through me in that thair brier patch!   grin
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bluegrass
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« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2012, 05:50:38 PM »

I wonder how many Research ships, and remote Weather Stations the National Weather Service operates and how many security officers they employ in the protection of those vital resources?
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« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2012, 08:05:50 PM »

When I go to the range before hunting season I may only shoot 3 or 4 rounds per gun.  They were sighted in when I finished with them the first year I had them, now I am only checking that they are still sighted in.  If one is not then a few rounds latter and it will be.  Some times I will go out just plinking with a 22 or SKS.  And for the pistols it doesn't matter that much, hollow point,wad cutter, etc. I shot a 1911 45, also have ruger 22 but the 45 is more accurate.  Depending where I am deer hunting is which gun I like, if I don't have to tote it a log ways I like the BAR 300 mag with extended range high shock rounds. It doesn't mess up the meat, small hole entering and exiting.


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bluegrass
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« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2012, 05:25:33 PM »

Where I hunt is thick brush, steep hills and ravines. Your viability may be 100 ft tops and when you take a shot it is usually at a moving target. Sighting in on a bench with 3-4 rounds doesn't cut it if you want to put a deer in the freezer. The gun needs to be an extension of yourself, you need to know how it feels swinging onto target and know what kind of clearance you have and what your capability is with it. That only comes with Practice... Lots of it.

My primary deer guns are a 45/70 (fowl weather gun) 35 Remington for the good days. And a 44 mag when I want a real challenge. I always have the 44 with me, the other two I switch back and forth between.
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« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2012, 09:29:30 PM »

Seeing that at selected Army posts in the old West, the US army gave free ".45/70 Government" ammo to any settler who claimed he was a buffalo hunter, I find your choice of the .45/70 Government loading ...well dejavu. 

The idea behind free .45/70 Government (Army) ammo was to starve the Great Plains Indians either to death or else into submission by decimating the buffalo herds they depended on for food.  US Army General in Chief William Tecumseh Sherman  infamously said, "The only good Indian is a dead Indian," and the following, "The more Indians we can kill this year the fewer we will need to kill the next, because the more I see of the Indians the more convinced I become that they must either all be killed or be maintained as a species of pauper ...!"  --WTS 

I am not saying that our government would engage in either genocide or ethnic cleansing in the manner Sherman employed between 1861 and his retirement from the Army, but these ammo purchases do make one wonder if someone is not planning on cutting the sodbusters and buffalo hunters out of the loop if there ever is a next time. 
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bluegrass
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« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2012, 05:04:43 PM »

The gun I speak of is a Custer era trapdoor... I don't know it's history but it has 5 "kill marks" cut into the stock. I don't know if those are for people or deer, but it is an amazing piece of history to hold... and wonder who held it before me and what they did with it.... what stories does it not tell?
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« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2012, 03:59:10 PM »

A .45/70 Government cartrage is a very powerful loading, especially 140 years ago during the black powder era.  The long range power and accuracy plus the availability of army ammo IMHO played an important part in the .45/70 Government rimfire metallic cartridge displacing the .52 Sharps paper cartridge as the ammo of choice for buffalo hunters.

But since your trap door Springfield rifle burns black powder or at least it is engineered to only burn black powder I find your choice of a trap door rim fire black powder gun for inclement weather unusual.  If you are using modern smokeless powders I don't think I need to remind you that the first man who substituted smokeless powder grain for grain for black powder in a trap door Springfield likely earned himself an unflattering politically incorrect nickname, like Blinker, or Cyclops.  

Thanks for bringing up the .45/70 Government cartridge, and Indian Fighter extraordinaire, Lt. Colonel G. A. Custer.  That led to me dredging up some of the unsavory details I heard about the Plains Indians' wars like government ammo issued to what can only be viewed by Native Americans as pro-government civilian militias.

So just how many of these new pistol or submarine gun rounds do you think may or will find their way into the hands of pro-government militias or "special action teams" in case of wide spread civil unrest?  On the other hand how many rounds may or will fall into the hands of antigovernment militias in the case of civilian unrest?  And if there is a legameant reason for the Weather Service to employ deadly force (Like to keep baby fur seals or land crabs from overrunning the WS's more isolated outposts) I think an armed Coast Guard or Navy security detail would provide better protection at lower cost.  

So why buy such large amounts of ammo if say the Social Security Administration ready doesn't have an armed force in place to need or use this ammo.

EPA Official Compares Agency Enforcement to Roman Crucifictions


Don't fret for this latter day Roman Legionair.  His former boss created a green job for him and he landed on his feet running. He is now employed at the Sierra Club.  Do any of you think that this ammo is not intended for use by or on the orders of people like the one depicted in the above video, if you believe that please explain your reasons.  
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bluegrass
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« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2012, 05:25:47 PM »

I use the trapdoor for bad weather because of it's open sights. The .35 rem is scoped and pretty compared to the Springfield so she stays in when it is nasty out. I shoot modern 45/70 govt rounds through the Springfield. They are light loads made for the old guns, no BP in them.

Depending on where a weather station or ship is located, the Coast Guard may be hrs away, or even not in their jurisdiction. These ammo purchases are at the request of Homeland Security. I think the conspiracy theory's can be dispelled. This is just promotion of Agencies taking control of their own security needs to a point. Any American asset is a target for terrorism... If we have a multi million dollar research ship with American crew out alone in the ocean and without security.... it could become a sitting duck. Just keeping the basis covered nothing more.
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« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2012, 12:12:14 AM »

... Depending on where a weather station or ship is located, the Coast Guard may be hrs away, or even not in their jurisdiction...

If these hypothetical weather ships had a Coast Guard detail on board they would be Johnny on the spot in case of trouble and could also act as ships crew.  If it was a land station and it had armed Federal government employees among the staff I fail to see (And I doubt a foreign government would either) any difference.  It almost seems like the government is claiming they're arming weather satellites to protect them from Klingons. 

Coast Guard types are already law enforcement agents.  Let one of them catch you on a TVA or Army Corps of Engineering lake without an approved life presever and then try and tell the judge that the Coast Guard can't enforce laws, keep the peace, or pass out attitude adjustments when the need arises.   
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bluegrass
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« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2012, 07:46:57 AM »

In my experience the Coast Guard doesn't staff any vessel except a Coast Guard or Naval Vessel.

So Purchase 16000 rounds of ammunition and arming personnel who are already in place is a bad idea to you? You would rather hire extra Coast Guardsmen, pay to put them through the Academy or TRACEN Cape May. Pay their salary for a minimum of 4 years, or greater than 20 and then pay their Pension and likely GI bill? Station them on ships or stations that don't belong to the Agency they signed up to serve in (that would go over like a fart in Church) I would have been severely POed if I was told that my assignment was to a weather ship. I went ion the Coast Guard to actually see some excitement... not stand watch on a boat full of scientists.
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« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2012, 07:49:42 AM »

Hey, those scientists can get a bit rowdy at times!
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« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2012, 09:29:12 AM »

In this day and age, I wouldnt blame anyone from being armed-government employee or not. And if they are going to carry, I would at least like them to be proficient in what they are carrying.  It wasnt that long ago that a different Fed agency ,the IRS , was sending armed "revenuers"  into the woods chasing illegal corn squeezers. Me and the wife went and watched 'The Campaign' at the movies the other night-and due to the recent events in Colorado, my Sig went with me.

A FMJ will not have the same feel as a duty +P+ round when fired no matter what caliber it is. I wouldnt expect anyone to practice with something like a .22 then be handed a .45 and be proficient with it in a high stress situation. Every round that doesnt hit what you are aiming at lands in Federal Court. Give me what I would be shooting in a real situation so I can become better with it-save the other for paper punchers.
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« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2012, 09:31:22 AM »

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I would have been severely POed if I was told that my assignment was to a weather ship. I went ion the Coast Guard to actually see some excitement..

not so long ago that would have been a funny statement.  now, i guess chasing down drug subs can be a little exciting   Wink.

ever read this series?  might give you a new take on guarding science ships!!   evil

After America  by John Birmingham
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #30 on: August 24, 2012, 09:36:06 AM »

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A FMJ will not have the same feel as a duty +P+ round when fired no matter what caliber it is. I wouldnt expect anyone to practice with something like a .22 then be handed a .45 and be proficient with it in a high stress situation. Every round that doesnt hit what you are aiming at lands in Federal Court. Give me what I would be shooting in a real situation so I can become better with it-save the other for paper punchers.

having fired off a few of both, i know this is not an issue with a hand gun.  if you are using the thing within the range of accuracy, that slight difference is not going to matter unless you are maybe stupid enough to go for a head shot on a moving target.

thing is, if you want to practice with expensive ammo, that's fine.  your money.  if they want to do it with my  money, not so cool.  how many are just doing qualifying fam fire and then go sit behind a desk? 

front line jobs, snipers, that kind of stuff...use what you want to use.  everyone else is wasting ammo and money if they aren't playing with the cheap(er) stuff. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #31 on: August 24, 2012, 10:20:21 AM »

Kathy
I think you are being obstinate just for the sake of being so. I was issued a Beretta as my side arm when I was active duty. The ammo I was issued was always the same regardless of whether I was on Patrol or at the range.

It makes no sense to target practice with anything other than the service ammo. Cheaper or not. And we don't know what contract the Government has with the manufacturer, so we really can't comment on the cost.
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« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2012, 10:32:32 AM »

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I think you are being obstinate just for the sake of being so

probably  grin

it just ticks me off that our government thinks nothing of wasting our money on all things, big and small.  this is a small thing, but if you took all the small things and added them up....

i must be older than you are.  sorry you got that crappy Beretta.  9mm?  evil  in my day, we got a colt .45 and it was an awesome weapon.  and they didn't use hollow points on the range!
   Wink
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2012, 11:31:10 AM »

Watching the news? Mayor Bloomberg just said that the additional 9 victims were hit by NYPD fire when they took the suspect down. Should have been shooting hollow points.

The .45 colt was replaced in the 1980s so if you were issued one... you are much older than me. I was in in 97-2001

Funny how people jump to conclusions. Early witness reports stated that the weapon was a automatic rifle or shot gun, much larger than a hand gun. Police Commissioner Ray Kelly just reported that the weapon was a 1911 .45 rolleyes
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« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2012, 12:13:58 PM »

yes, i am much older.  i was still in when the switch was made, but because i was with the Marines (corpseman, per our prez), we were able to keep the .45 if we wished.  there came a time when that was not supposed to be an option, but.....

the 9mm switch was a NATO deal.  it never made sense except to NATO members who seemed not to really want to kill anyone....or to use a great deal of ammo trying!
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2012, 12:47:06 PM »

I like the 1911, but it was 70 year old technology at that point and was well over due for an upgrade. Custer died at little big horn because he was issued old technology and the Native tribes had Winchester repeaters.

They could have made a better choice than the Beretta probably, but I had no complaints with it.
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« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2012, 03:09:05 PM »

Custer died at the Little Bighorn because he had an ego bigger than all of Montana and half of Canada.  You may well say that Light Colonel George Armstrong Custer had "Toxic Ego Syndrome." 

The tragedy is the 219 innocent members (out of 220) of his command that Custer dragged with him to their doom.  Before the battle began a French-Indian guide and interpreter Mitch Bouyer told Lt. Reno and Bentine that all of Custer's command would die that day if Custer attacked.   Shortly afterward Bouyer dismissed his Crow Indian scouts telling them to rejoin and stay with the supply train or else go home.  Mitchel Bouyer rejoined Lt. Colonel Custer and was one of the last men in the Lt. Colonel's command to die.  You can see Boyer's monument stone today on the banks of the river at the bottom of Custer Hill were Bouyer's remains were found. 

Thirty three years earlier another aboregional people taught the British the same bloody lesson in Afghanistan when an army of poorly armed Afghanans totally wiped out a British Army that was better armed than the natives, but numbered only 12,000 to 15,000 men weak.  The national security mistake we are committing is depending on expensive weapons systems similar to what the German Army did during WWII to compensate for weakness in numbers.  In other words we are copying the stradegy of the loosers.  You may look at West Point and the other Service Acadmies as America's war colleges, but in reality they are our schools of coming hard knocks.
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« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2012, 03:38:36 PM »

I wouldn't trade my 45 for several 9mm's.  When you shoot someting with the 45 it goes down.  I also put good scopes on my rifles Leopol 3x9x50, had the triggers smoothed by a gun smith and a lowered pull on my semi auto 06, now 2 1/2 #pull.  They shoot fine.


Joe
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« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2012, 04:37:07 PM »

our major mistake is that we have forgotten one of Sun Tzu's  pieces of advice, which was to bring the enemy onto territory favorable to your own fighting force.

we did that by inviting AQ to Iraq and it was fairly successful.  we were never going to route them out of the caves of Afghanistan and Pakistan.   
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2012, 10:59:51 PM »

... Mayor Bloomberg just said that the additional 9 victims were hit by NYPD fire when they took the suspect down...


I would bet that the NYPD were shooting hollow points.  It would have been much better if NYC's finest had been hitting what they were shooting at the first time every time.  The perp according to my media information was using a .25 Caliber pocket pistol.  Likely similar to the one I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread.  Hollow point projectiles riccochey almost as badly as hardball ammo.  Besides hollow points fracture easly causing multiple wounds to multiple victims.  The only way to limit collateral damage is to fire low velocity fragable ammo, not always the best tactic.
http://www.answers.com/topic/frangible-bullet
but above all you need to hit what your aiming at.

Maybe the Obama Administration intended this ammo to be used by the NYPD.  The good lord knows they and other departments need the practice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amadou_Diallo
In 1999 4 NYPD officers fired a total of 41 rounds to kill one man, Amadou Diallo who proved to be unarmed.

In 2004 Officers unloaded their weapons, firing 120 shots at Winston Hayes. Four bullets ended up hitting Hayes who survived, one hit a deputy sheriff, 11 rounds hit patrol cars and 11 more rounds hit five homes in the neighborhood (one of them ended up tearing a hole in a homeowner's hat)." —ABC News.[11]

2006: Three officers fired 26 shots at a pit bull that had bitten a chunk out of an officer’s leg…  I guess the reason it required so much ammo was because the officers had to put down fire covering so the other officers could outflank the pit bull.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_Bell_shooting_incident
In 2006 five of NYC’s finest, all dressed in civilian duds and some of whom were drinking at the time, needed 51 rounds to kill 1 unarmed innocent man while wounding 2 other unarmed innocent men who were sitting in a motionless car at close range.

http://gothamist.com/2011/09/07/nypd_fired_73_bullets_in_brooklyn_s.php
In September 2011 the NYPD fired 73 rounds to wound 1 Crown Heights murder suspect.  A innocent by stander also died.  The NYPD is doing ballistics test to try and determine who fired the shot that killed the by stander.  No word yet on the outcome.

Someone help me out here.  I seem to remember an even worst incident 20 years ago where NYC police fired 100 rounds  (+/-) to bring down one man but also wounded or killed one or more bystanders.   I think an abandoned store building was the scene.

Maybe the Obama Administration intended this ammo to be used by the NYPD.  The good lord knows they and other departments need the practice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amadou_Diallo
In 1999 4 NYPD officers fired a total of 41 rounds to kill one man, Amadou Diallo who proved to be unarmed.

In 2004 Officers unloaded their weapons, firing 120 shots at Winston Hayes. Four bullets ended up hitting Hayes who survived, one hit a deputy sheriff, 11 rounds hit patrol cars and 11 more rounds hit five homes in the neighborhood (one of them ended up tearing a hole in a homeowner's hat)." —ABC News.[11]

2006: Three officers fired 26 shots at a pit bull that had bitten a chunk out of an officer’s leg…  I guess the reason it required so much ammo was because the officers had to put down fire covering so the other officers could outflank the pit bull.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_Bell_shooting_incident
In 2006 five of NYC’s finest, all dressed in civilian duds and some of whom were drinking at the time, needed 51 rounds to kill 1 unarmed innocent man while wounding 2 other unarmed innocent men who were sitting in a motionless car at close range.

http://gothamist.com/2011/09/07/nypd_fired_73_bullets_in_brooklyn_s.php
In September 2011 the NYPD fired 73 rounds to wound 1 Crown Heights murder suspect.  A innocent by stander also died.  The NYPD is doing ballistics test to try and determine who fired the shot that killed the by stander.  No word yet on the outcome.

Someone help me out here.  I seem to remember an even worst incident in NY where the police fired almost 100 rounds (I think) to bring down one man but also wounded or killed one or more bystanders.   

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