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Author Topic: Extractor advice  (Read 3215 times)
Boom Buzz
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« on: August 09, 2012, 02:23:22 PM »

I am close to pulling the trigger on buying an extractor and would like any advice and or input.  I've narrowed it down to two models

4 frame maxant 3100   http://www.betterbee.com/Products/Extracting/Maxant-3100-Hand-Crank-Extractor-without-Legs

or

9 frame from Brushy Mtn   http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/Deluxe-9-Frame-Radial-Hand-Extractor/productinfo/802/

These fit my budget and my apiary size.  I currently have 11 hives and may grow to 15, but probably won't get much bigger than that.

It seems like a no brainer, go with the 9 frame!  But the maxant looks like better quality to me.  Does anyone have experience or an opinion about either of these extractors?  Any pros or cons would be appreciated.  Also, I would like the option to use a power drill to power the extractor.  It looks like the 9 frame would be better suited for this, however the person at Brushy said they cannot advise doing this  for liability reasons.  Any thoughts on using a power drill especially with respect to either of these two units?

Thanks

John
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« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2012, 02:42:02 PM »

that 9 frame looks sweet.  I'll tell you though, the hand crank on the brushy is a knuckle buster.  They're set too close to the extractor body.  Plus, the spring loaded grip will pop out of gear while under torque.  If you can mount a cheap motor on to the brushy i think you be happy.  9 frame radial, nice!

Don't know anything about the other one.  That horizontal crank looks like it might be more tiring to use.
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JP
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« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2012, 03:45:02 PM »

Even four frame hand cranks are a pain in the %@# to use. You definitely want to convert the one you choose. The more frames it can hold, the better.


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« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2012, 03:47:55 PM »

I have the brushy version, I respectfully disagree on the knuckle buster part, but I wasted no time mounting it to a sturdier base. Its shakes pretty bad if not very well balanced.
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« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2012, 03:50:36 PM »

I use a Maxant Model 3100P (9 frame with motor). I do not have the luxury of youth, for strength and endurance.  After watching a friend do hand cranking and hand cranking U-tube clips, I decided to go with the motor driven model. -Mike
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mulesii
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« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2012, 04:41:03 PM »

Boom Buzz: check out H.T. Krantz.  They are offering free shipping on the Maxant 3100H and 3100P.  They also have the lowest price in Maxant that I have seen.
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« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2012, 06:11:16 PM »

Whatever you do take conversion to power into account.  After a few years of cranking you'll want power.  I didn't, but it worked out as there are always beginners looking for used units.  I saved my money and kept watching for a used radial.  Ended up with a bigger one than I thought I'd need (Dadant 20 frame) but l'm so glad I got it now.
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« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2012, 06:57:11 PM »

I'm using a 60 year old Kelly two frame reversable hand cranked extractor so I'm a bit out of the loop but here's what I would look for if I was going for a new unit. The radials are the way to go, if you can't afford one with a motor get one that is upgradable down the line. My Kelly gives me a good workout with 6 or 7 supers and I would really like to drop a motor on itbut the upgrade would cost more than it is worth. Get a extractor that sits in a stand, I have seen some extractors that have the legs attached to the extractor body or drum with spot welded brackets. I can't see how something like that would hold up over the years consitering just how much my Kelly jumps around. I would think that the spot welds would pull out or break from all the vibration and twisting produced when extracting. Kelly still makes extractors and to my surprise parts for my unit are still advailable. If you look them up you will find that a lot of thier mid sized units have metal drive gears instead of plastic. They are also made in the USA
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« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2012, 07:00:24 PM »

I have a hand crank.   Used is for years and years.  Plan to use the hand crank until I find a stack of cash laying around.   But, if I was in the market to buy a new one, I would figure out a way to pay for a electric motor model.  
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Intheswamp
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« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2012, 07:19:44 PM »

Both the Maxant and Italian SAF are good brands.  My mentor has the 9-frame SAF in the motorized version.  I helped some this year extracting and my first job was loading the extractor as he uncapped.  I paid no special effort to placing the frames in a "balanced" arrangement....each batch of frames we extracted were smooth with little vibration.  Later we extracted some of my honey and some of the combs were a little, uh, non-uniform...from not keeping the frames spaced like I should, etc., (newbee here!! Smiley )....the extractor still ran smooth, though maybe not as smooth as when we extracted my mentors.  The speed control and motor are very smooth.

From all reports the Maxants are fine extractors, but I don't have personal experience with them.

As others have said...if there's any way at all you can get a motorized version...get it!  ...you won't regret it.  While your extracting you can be uncapping the next batch or sipping a cola. Wink

Interestingly I'm debating between these two extractors in the motorized versions...along with the SAF's 18-frame big brother.

Best wishes,
Ed
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« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2012, 07:48:26 PM »

Ed, I figured you might try Acebirds home made design.

+1 on the motor.
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Intheswamp
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« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2012, 08:03:53 PM »

To much engineering involved in it, way above my pay grade.  I need something simple, like Curiosity. Smiley

Ed
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American blood spilled to protect the freedom and peace of people all over the world.  320,000 USA casualties in WWI, 1,076,000 USA casualties in WWII, 128,000 USA casualties in the Korean War, 211,000 casualties in the Vietnam "conflict", 57,000 USA casualties in "War on Terror".  Benghazi, Libya, 13 USA casualties. These figures don't include 70,000 MIA.  But, the leaders of one political party of the United States of America continue to make the statement..."What difference does it make?".

"We can't expect the American People to jump from Capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving them small doses of Socialism, until they awaken one day to find that they have Communism."..."The press is our chief ideological weapon." - Nikita Khrushchev
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« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2012, 11:40:56 PM »

This year I used the best extractor ever, a freind in the local bee club bought a new 12 frame ext. and let me use it.  It is electric don't rember the brand or where he got it.  Now I have bought an extractor for myself  "a Bix 8 frame extractor"  haven't put it together yet but it will be going by next time to sling honey.  I am planning to put a motor on it.   Good luck with which ever you decide to get, John.



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« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2012, 12:55:40 AM »

Hey all, thanks so much on the replies and advice on my extractor decision. 

I am hearing loud and clear consensus on going with the motorized version or at least being able to upgrade to motorized quickly.  I hadn't realized this was as big a priority, so I like the confirmation that motorized is important.

And I figured more frames is better, so 9 is better than 6.  I misspoke about the Maxant above, so thanks to Ed (Intheswamp) for reminding me it is a 6 frame.  So now I am thinking 9 frame motorized is the right choice, however the 18 frame SAF is only $120 more...decisions, decisions...  I think I need to reconsider...

One thought though.  I do not have a dedicated honey harvest room.  For those of you using 9 frame or larger, is your set up dedicated?  Or are you storing your extractor and getting it out when time to harvest?  From that standpoint the 6 frame Maxant may be more maneuverable and easier to store.

Thanks Mulesii on the H.T. Krantz info.  They were not on my radar, and with their low prices and free shipping on the Maxant I will keep them in mind if I go that route.

Thanks again for the info..

John

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Intheswamp
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« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2012, 09:42:50 AM »

John, definitely go powered if you can do it.  The size factor between the 9-frame and the 18-frame is something that I'm pondering.  I'm familiar with the size of the 9-frame SAF and can move it carefully without help, I'm wondering if the 18-frame might be a little bit awkward for one person to handle.  The 9-frame is shown as being 128 pounds...breaking it down into separate parts would lighten the weight to be carried.  I haven't found a listed weight for the 18-frame unit but truck freight is mentioned. 

I'm not sure whether I will have a dedicated extracting area or not, for now mobility is a concern of mine.  If I knew for certain I would have a permanent place for the extractor I would probably go with the 18-frame.  I'm also not sure how many hives I will ultimately have.  My mentor extracted right at 165 gallons last year using the 9-frame powered unit.  He is retired, though, and has more daytime hours to work with than I will have...but, will I ever get anywhere near 50 hives?...that's an unknown at this point of my beekeeping journey.  Probably the 9-frame (or even the 6-frame) would do me good...probably. 

Before I do anything, I will discuss it with my mentor, especially since he's been using the 9-frame for several years. Smiley

Ed
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American blood spilled to protect the freedom and peace of people all over the world.  320,000 USA casualties in WWI, 1,076,000 USA casualties in WWII, 128,000 USA casualties in the Korean War, 211,000 casualties in the Vietnam "conflict", 57,000 USA casualties in "War on Terror".  Benghazi, Libya, 13 USA casualties. These figures don't include 70,000 MIA.  But, the leaders of one political party of the United States of America continue to make the statement..."What difference does it make?".

"We can't expect the American People to jump from Capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving them small doses of Socialism, until they awaken one day to find that they have Communism."..."The press is our chief ideological weapon." - Nikita Khrushchev
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« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2012, 09:45:02 AM »

Will you be picking up at a store or having it shipped?  If you will have to have it shipped see if the vendor will be coming to a beekeeping meeting within a reasonable distance of you...many vendors take orders to be delivered at meetings and thus you dodge the shipping costs.

BTW, did you get some emails from me?  Just curious...

Best wishes,
Ed
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www.beeweather.com 
American blood spilled to protect the freedom and peace of people all over the world.  320,000 USA casualties in WWI, 1,076,000 USA casualties in WWII, 128,000 USA casualties in the Korean War, 211,000 casualties in the Vietnam "conflict", 57,000 USA casualties in "War on Terror".  Benghazi, Libya, 13 USA casualties. These figures don't include 70,000 MIA.  But, the leaders of one political party of the United States of America continue to make the statement..."What difference does it make?".

"We can't expect the American People to jump from Capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving them small doses of Socialism, until they awaken one day to find that they have Communism."..."The press is our chief ideological weapon." - Nikita Khrushchev
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« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2012, 10:15:21 AM »

Hey Ed, thanks for the additional input.  And I did receive your emails.  I emailed back so hopefully you got it.  Let me know if you did not.

So if I stay around 15 hives for my apiary then maybe the 18 frame is overkill and I am fine with the 9 frame.  I do need to find the weight of the 18 frame, it just might be to heavy to e moving around.

15 hives X 3 honey supers each (in a good year) = 45 supers X 10 frames (if full) = 450 frames  shocked at the very best - probably will never see this much really so that is the high end boundary - thus 50 loads with the 9 frame.  My main honey flow is from alfalfa, in which the real flow happens for about four weeks starting late July into August. 

I will be having it shipped, so a couple of phone calls to see if I can get free shipping sounds like a good idea. 
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Intheswamp
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« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2012, 10:32:54 AM »

Something else to think about once you get several hives in your yard is bulk storage.  A 10 frame medium box should yield around 2.5 gallons of honey.  If you extract five supers in the morning you will have 12.5 gallons of new honey to deal with which equates to 50 quarts.  Figuring you are straining between the extractor and your catch bucket (5-gallon bucket in my current arrangement) the next process will either be putting a lid on the bucket or proceeding to bottle.  Either way, you've got to have two more 5-gallon buckets to catch the rest of the honey in.  My mentor uses a 2.5-3 gallon ss bucket which he then pours over into an 18-gallon holding take (with honey gate on it).  He lets the honey sit for a day or so so that the bubbles and any flotsam can come to the top and also so any solids can sink to the bottom (below the honey gate level).  With my little bit of honey this year I used three 5-gallon buckets for my seven gallons of honey...I was transporting from his honey house to my home so the buckets worked good.  I just thought I'd throw the bulk storage issue at you. Smiley

Oh yeah...uncapping tank and uncapping tools... Wink

Ed
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www.beeweather.com 
American blood spilled to protect the freedom and peace of people all over the world.  320,000 USA casualties in WWI, 1,076,000 USA casualties in WWII, 128,000 USA casualties in the Korean War, 211,000 casualties in the Vietnam "conflict", 57,000 USA casualties in "War on Terror".  Benghazi, Libya, 13 USA casualties. These figures don't include 70,000 MIA.  But, the leaders of one political party of the United States of America continue to make the statement..."What difference does it make?".

"We can't expect the American People to jump from Capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving them small doses of Socialism, until they awaken one day to find that they have Communism."..."The press is our chief ideological weapon." - Nikita Khrushchev
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« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2012, 10:33:50 AM »

John, I didn't get your email, either.  You might want to just PM it back to me...

Ed
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www.beeweather.com 
American blood spilled to protect the freedom and peace of people all over the world.  320,000 USA casualties in WWI, 1,076,000 USA casualties in WWII, 128,000 USA casualties in the Korean War, 211,000 casualties in the Vietnam "conflict", 57,000 USA casualties in "War on Terror".  Benghazi, Libya, 13 USA casualties. These figures don't include 70,000 MIA.  But, the leaders of one political party of the United States of America continue to make the statement..."What difference does it make?".

"We can't expect the American People to jump from Capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving them small doses of Socialism, until they awaken one day to find that they have Communism."..."The press is our chief ideological weapon." - Nikita Khrushchev
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« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2012, 10:43:52 AM »

Boom Buzz:  Not sure what size frames you are extracting, but the Maxant 3100 is a nine frame extractor, depending upon your mix of frames.  The extractor extracts 6 medium/shallows radially and 3 deeps/medium-shallows tangentially (total of nine).
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« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2012, 12:00:52 PM »

You are so very right, mulesii.  I guess I had a one-track radial mind. Smiley  Yes, with three medium frames inserted tangentially you can extract a total of nine mediums at a time.  Or course you have to stop twice during the extraction process to flip frames, which may or may not be a big issue to some people.  For me, it's not exactly a "plus", but it's not a deal killer, either.

I'm torn between SAF and Maxant.  Of note is that Maxant's customer service is second to none (though some may be equal).  I don't hear of many people needing to repair extractors, though.  It seems most of the major brands work well with few issues.  If Maxant had a 100% 9-frame radial attractor I don't think there would be question which I would choose.  Having said that, from what I understand tangential extracting will remove more honey that radial extracting...correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks for the heads'up, mulesii,
Ed
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www.beeweather.com 
American blood spilled to protect the freedom and peace of people all over the world.  320,000 USA casualties in WWI, 1,076,000 USA casualties in WWII, 128,000 USA casualties in the Korean War, 211,000 casualties in the Vietnam "conflict", 57,000 USA casualties in "War on Terror".  Benghazi, Libya, 13 USA casualties. These figures don't include 70,000 MIA.  But, the leaders of one political party of the United States of America continue to make the statement..."What difference does it make?".

"We can't expect the American People to jump from Capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving them small doses of Socialism, until they awaken one day to find that they have Communism."..."The press is our chief ideological weapon." - Nikita Khrushchev
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« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2012, 12:18:31 PM »

Ed, yeah I have thought about the bulk storage question a little bit.  When I thought I was going to get the 9 frame SAF from Brushy MTN I was planning to get their extractor kit which has most of the stuff you mentioned.  The kit is on sale with the purchase of that extractor.  I have two five gallon buckets with lids, strainers and gates already.  So uncapping tools and some larger bulk containers will be helpful.

Mulesii - thanks, I had seen that the Maxant is a 9 frame - 6 radial and 3 tangential.  I do solely mediums for the honey super.  So I was assuming, I could do nine mediums, at a time.  Though it seems like it would be more like 15 frames every two cycles, because you are flipping the tangential frames when you reload the radial frames.  So the tangential slots get reloaded every other time!?  So in essence it is like doing 7.5 frames per cycle?  Am I thinking about that correctly?  I haven't ruled it out, but just trying to understand how that would work.  I have not used an extractor before so sorry if the questions are so basic.  The pricing on the maxant is definitely attractive.
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« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2012, 02:04:11 PM »

Boom Buzz, I called my friend that let me use his.  He said he got it from Dadant, it is a 12 frame electric.  I don't know how much but it works great.  He has 80 hives and he let me do mine.  Good luck with your project.



Joe
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« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2012, 04:05:56 PM »

So if I stay around 15 hives for my apiary then maybe the 18 frame is overkill and I am fine with the 9 frame.  I do need to find the weight of the 18 frame, it just might be to heavy to e moving around.

I've only got 15 hives that I harvest from and the 20 frame extractor I've got saves me tons of time.  (average 30 supers, 2- supers per hive, 9 frames per super, 270 frames to extract) My 20 frame is heavy but I installed lockable casters on it so it moves around beautifully.  I use regular super frames and it fits 36 of those.  Not sure if that's the case with the 18 you're looking at.  The thing that an 18 will do for you when you look at it is equally pull the honey from both sides.  Most of the smaller radial extractors put the frames at angles, not like spokes of a wagon wheel.  The larger ones use the true wagon wheel configuration and in theory you'll have less blow outs, but the is conjecture as I've only used a Kelly reversable 2-frame and the Dadant.  I did the same excersize you are doing now as I looked to upgrade my extractor.
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« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2012, 04:12:44 PM »

Woops, double post.
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« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2012, 07:32:14 PM »

John, I hadn't really thought about the gauge of the metal.  I knew that the smaller number was a thicker metal but didn't realize exactly what the differences are.  I found a website that listed the differences and it was an eye opener.  It's amazing what we learn as we get deeper into the brood chamber, eh? Wink

Anyhow, the only folks that I've found that list gauges for their extractors are Mann Lake and Maxant.  Mann Lake states 26 gauge for their extractors while Maxant states 20 gauge for theirs.  If I'm not looking at this wrong, according to the sheet metal website the Maxants 20-gauge (.0375" thick) is TWICE as thick as the Mann Lake 26-gauge (.0187" thick).  I've looked around but haven't found the gauges for SAF or Dadant...I would really be interested in the gauge of the SAF units.

It seems to me that Maxants may be leaning more toward commercial durability.  But, there's lots of happy users of other brands that brag on their extractors as being durable.  Huh

Here's the website for the sheet metal gauge chart:  NorthClad sheet metal gauges.

Here's a snippet of the pertinent part of the chart...

Gauge     Stainless Steel Thickness
26      0.0187"
25      0.0219"
24      0.0250"
23      0.0281"
22      0.0312"
21      0.0344"
20      0.0375"

Anyhow, just wanted to point the "gauge thing" out to you.  Probably everyone else realized the differences years ago.  embarassed

Ed
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www.beeweather.com 
American blood spilled to protect the freedom and peace of people all over the world.  320,000 USA casualties in WWI, 1,076,000 USA casualties in WWII, 128,000 USA casualties in the Korean War, 211,000 casualties in the Vietnam "conflict", 57,000 USA casualties in "War on Terror".  Benghazi, Libya, 13 USA casualties. These figures don't include 70,000 MIA.  But, the leaders of one political party of the United States of America continue to make the statement..."What difference does it make?".

"We can't expect the American People to jump from Capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving them small doses of Socialism, until they awaken one day to find that they have Communism."..."The press is our chief ideological weapon." - Nikita Khrushchev
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« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2012, 07:47:23 PM »

I use a Maxant Model 3100P (9 frame with motor). I do not have the luxury of youth, for strength and endurance.  After watching a friend do hand cranking and hand cranking U-tube clips, I decided to go with the motor driven model. -Mike
Mike, when you extract do you extract a full nine frame-load, 6 radially and 3 tangentially?

If you go with a full-load what is your process for flipping the tangentially positioned frames?

Thanks,
Ed

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www.beeweather.com 
American blood spilled to protect the freedom and peace of people all over the world.  320,000 USA casualties in WWI, 1,076,000 USA casualties in WWII, 128,000 USA casualties in the Korean War, 211,000 casualties in the Vietnam "conflict", 57,000 USA casualties in "War on Terror".  Benghazi, Libya, 13 USA casualties. These figures don't include 70,000 MIA.  But, the leaders of one political party of the United States of America continue to make the statement..."What difference does it make?".

"We can't expect the American People to jump from Capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving them small doses of Socialism, until they awaken one day to find that they have Communism."..."The press is our chief ideological weapon." - Nikita Khrushchev
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« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2012, 08:00:14 PM »

find an extractor, take off the handle, then weld a sprocket on there.  Get some chain and make a motor mount with electric motor, and sprocket.  Adjust sprocket size to slow it down or speed it up.  oh and make a chain guard. heh
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« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2012, 08:34:48 PM »

Ed, thanks for posting the thickness for the different gauge steel.  The FAS is showing up as 0.5 mm which comes in at 0.0197 inches which is between 25 and 26 gauge.  It is Italian made, and the spec sheet has some english on it so hopefully I am reading it right.

I also saw a thread on another site that spoke very highly of Maxant 3100P.  I am interested to hear Mike's response on how he uses it.

Duck, I am actually going in on this with a friend and fellow beek, and he thinks like you do.  "we can rig something up."  And I would be for that if we found a decent used hand crank at a good price.  But since it looks like we are buying new, I am pushing to get a motorized unit out of the shoot.  I am waiting for his feedback on bumping up the budget.

Right now it is between the Maxant 9 frame 3100P, the FAS 9 frame motorized (probably too expensive), or the Mann Lake 8 frame motorized (But the Maxant looks like better quality, at a lower price, and close on number of frames).   I think it would be a done deal if the Maxant were a straight 9 frame and not a 6 and 3.
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Joe D
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« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2012, 11:36:30 PM »

Boom, the Bix extractor I got , I am planning to hook a tread mill motor to it.  With the controls you can run most any speed.  Picked it up at a garage sell for 5 bucks.  They had broke the part you run on, every thing I needed worked fine.  Good luck



Joe
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« Reply #30 on: August 13, 2012, 08:27:50 AM »

We have the 9-frame SAF Italian Hand Crank model purchased from Rossman's. It is a true Radial extracting all 9 frames at one time. It is of good quality and easy to use. Price was the motivating factor for us when we purchased it. We plan on upgrading to the motor in the next year or two when we sell enough honey to help pay for the motor kit. I think the Maxant models are of better quality, but make sure you buy a "true" radial so you don't have to stop or turn frames. I think JP has the Maxant 20 frame model with heavy duty legs (SAF has lower quality legs that twist a bit when extracting  Sad ) which is what we really wanted (maybe later?). JP even has a video of him using his extractor.
Storage is also a huge factor for you while you are extracting. With 6 hives we have filled five 5-gallon buckets. They definitely need to sit overnight to allow wax and particles to rise.
Always think long term and durability in mind.
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« Reply #31 on: August 13, 2012, 08:40:41 AM »

We keep and use our extractor in our garage also. I mounted it to a pallet which cuts down on a lot of unbalanced wobble. We keep it covered with a blanket which helps keep it clean and ready to use.
Hope this helps.
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« Reply #32 on: August 14, 2012, 03:36:48 PM »

My buddy and I are closing in on ordering the maxant 3100p but then I took another look at the picture in the attached link...

http://www.htkbeesupply.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=62_65&product_id=86

It looks like the radial inserted frames are side by side in a way that the honey would not flow out of the two sides facing each other.  That the frames would have to be flipped!?  or at least the frames being placed together would impede the draining of the honey out of the comb.

Can anyone explain how this works?  Any help is appreciated!

John
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D Coates
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« Reply #33 on: August 14, 2012, 04:38:02 PM »

It will flow between the frames with no problems.  You won't need to reverse anything on the 6 super frames.  If you put a deep on it's side to fit on the long sides youwill have to flip that one though.
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« Reply #34 on: August 14, 2012, 04:53:58 PM »

Thanks Drew!  I called Maxant and talked to Jake there as well.

Placed the order and bought some uncapping tools also. 

Really appreciate all the input and food for thought from everyone! Thank You!

As a side note, I checked craigslist one time yesterday and a three year old 9 frame SAF motorized popped up at a great price!  Just an hour south of me.  Needless to say I got pretty excited....until I saw the "This item is sold" note!  Cry  DANG!  Not sure how I missed it, but it was gone before I even knew it was available...  I will be happy with the Maxant I am sure!  bee

John
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Intheswamp
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« Reply #35 on: August 14, 2012, 10:55:51 PM »

 grin  th_thumbsupup
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Intheswamp
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« Reply #36 on: August 21, 2012, 11:46:10 AM »

So....IS IT THERE YET!!!?   grin
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www.beeweather.com 
American blood spilled to protect the freedom and peace of people all over the world.  320,000 USA casualties in WWI, 1,076,000 USA casualties in WWII, 128,000 USA casualties in the Korean War, 211,000 casualties in the Vietnam "conflict", 57,000 USA casualties in "War on Terror".  Benghazi, Libya, 13 USA casualties. These figures don't include 70,000 MIA.  But, the leaders of one political party of the United States of America continue to make the statement..."What difference does it make?".

"We can't expect the American People to jump from Capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving them small doses of Socialism, until they awaken one day to find that they have Communism."..."The press is our chief ideological weapon." - Nikita Khrushchev
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« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2012, 11:35:08 AM »

Just used my maxant 1400P for the first time. it is a great machine works really nice
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