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Author Topic: this is interesting  (Read 2981 times)
kathyp
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« on: July 31, 2012, 11:17:48 PM »

i can't vouch for this site.  it's one i stumbled on.  thought this part was interesting.
http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/


The following are 65 signs that the economic collapse is already happening all around us....

1. Since Barack Obama entered the White House, the number of long-term unemployed Americans has doubled from 2.7 million to 5.4 million.

2. The average duration of unemployment in the United States is nearly three times as long as it was back in the year 2000.

3. The unemployment rate in the U.S. has been above 8 percent for 40 months in a row, and 42 percent of all unemployed Americans have been out of work for at least half a year.

4. Unemployment in the eurozone has hit another brand new record high.  It is now sitting at 11.2 percent.  It has risen for 14 months in a row.

5. The U.S. economy lost more than 220,000 small businesses during the recent recession.

6. The percentage of Americans that are self-employed fell by more than 20 percent between 1991 and 2010.

7. Overall, the number of "new entrepreneurs and business owners" dropped by a staggering 53 percent between 1977 and 2010.

8. The unemployment rate in Spain is now up to 24.6 percent.

9. Morgan Stanley is projecting that the unemployment rate in Greece will exceed 25 percent in 2013.

10. Since Barack Obama became president, the price of a gallon of gasoline has risen from $1.85 to $3.49.

11. The average American household spent approximately $4,155 on gasoline during 2011, and electricity bills in the U.S. have risen faster than the overall rate of inflation for five years in a row.

12. About three times as many new homes were sold in the United States in 2005 as will be sold in 2012.

13. While Barack Obama has been in the White House, home values in the United States have declined by 12 percent.

14. According to AARP, 600,000 American homeowners that are 50 years of age or older are currently in foreclosure.

15. Right now there are now 20.2 million Americans that spend more than half of their incomes on housing.  That represents a 46 percent increase from 2001.

16. According to Gallup, the current level of home ownership in the United States is the lowest that they have ever measured.

17. Federal housing assistance increased by a whopping 42 percent between 2006 and 2010.

18. In some areas of Detroit, Michigan you can buy a three bedroom home for just $500.

19. All around us our cities are crumbling.  According to the American Society of Civil Engineers, 2.2 trillion dollars is needed just to repair critical infrastructure in the United States.

20. The unemployment rate in New York City is now back up to 10 percent.  That equals the peak unemployment rate in New York City during the last recession.

21. Back in 1950, more than 80 percent of all men in the United States had jobs.  Today, less than 65 percent of all men in the United States have jobs.

22. The U.S. Postal Service is about to default on a 5.5 billion dollar payment for future retiree health benefits.

23. According to Graham Summers, "when we account for all the backdoor schemes Germany has engaged in to prop up the EU, Germany's REAL Debt to GDP is closer to 300%."

24. According to the Federal Reserve, the median net worth of families in the United States declined "from $126,400 in 2007 to $77,300 in 2010".

25. The U.S. trade deficit with China during 2011 was 28 times larger than it was back in 1990.

26. The United States has lost more than 56,000 manufacturing facilities since 2001.

27. During 2010 alone, an average of 23 manufacturing facilities permanently shut down in the United States every single day.

28. The U.S. government says that the number of Americans "not in the labor force" rose by 17.9 million between 2000 and 2011.  During the entire decade of the 1980s, the number of Americans "not in the labor force" rose by only 1.7 million.

29. Eight million Americans have "left the labor force" since the recession supposedly ended.  If those Americans were added back into the unemployment figures, the unemployment rate would be somewhere up around 12 percent.

30. Approximately 53 percent of all U.S. college graduates under the age of 25 were either unemployed or underemployed last year.

31. At this point, one out of every four American workers has a job that pays $10 an hour or less.  If that sounds like a high figure, that is because it is.  Today, the United States actually has a higher percentage of workers doing low wage work than any other major industrialized nation does.

32. Back in 1980, less than 30% of all jobs in the United States were low income jobs.  Today, more than 40% of all jobs in the United States are low income jobs.

33. According to one study, between 1969 and 2009 the median wages earned by American men between the ages of 30 and 50 declined by 27 percent after you account for inflation.

34. In 2007, the unemployment rate for the 20 to 29 age bracket was about 6.5 percent.  Today, the unemployment rate for that same age group is about 13 percent.

35. According to the Bureau of Economic Analysis, health care costs accounted for just 9.5% of all personal consumption back in 1980.  Today they account for approximately 16.3%.

36. Medicare spending increased by 138 percent between 1999 and 2010.

37. Over the next 75 years, Medicare is facing unfunded liabilities of more than 38 trillion dollars.  That comes to $328,404 for each and every household in the United States.

38. Back in 1990, the federal government accounted for 32 percent of all health care spending in America.  Today, that figure is up to 45 percent and it is projected to surpass 50 percent very shortly.

39. Back in 1965, only one out of every 50 Americans was on Medicaid.  Today, one out of every 6 Americans is on Medicaid, and things are about to get a whole lot worse.  It is being projected that Obamacare will add 16 million more Americans to the Medicaid rolls.

40. Since 2008, the U.S. economy has lost 1.3 million jobs while at the same time 3.6 million more Americans have been added to Social Security's disability insurance program.

41. Since Barack Obama entered the White House, the number of Americans living in poverty has risen by 6.4 million.

42. The number of Americans on food stamps has risen from 32 million to 46 million since Barack Obama became president.

43. Right now the poverty rate for children living in the United States is 22 percent, and approximately one-fourth of all American children are enrolled in the food stamp program at this point.

44. The number of children living in poverty in the state of California has increased by 30 percent since 2007.

45. Child homelessness in the United States has risen by 33 percent since 2007.

46. According to the National Center for Children in Poverty, 36.4 percent of all children that live in Philadelphia are living in poverty, 40.1 percent of all children that live in Atlanta are living in poverty, 52.6 percent of all children that live in Cleveland are living in poverty and 53.6 percent of all children that live in Detroit are living in poverty.

47. Approximately 57 percent of all children in the United States are living in homes that are either considered to be either "low income" or impoverished.

48. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the percentage of Americans living in "extreme poverty" is now sitting at an all-time high.

49. In the United States today, somewhere around 100 million Americans are considered to be either "poor" or "near poor".

50. It is now being projected that about half of all American adults will spend at least some time living below the poverty line before they turn 65.

51. Total home mortgage debt in the United States is now about 5 times larger than it was just 20 years ago.

52. Total consumer debt in the United States has risen by 1700 percent since 1971.

53. Recently it was announced that total student loan debt in the United States has passed the one trillion dollar mark.

54. According to one recent survey, approximately one-third of all Americans are not paying their bills on time at this point.

55. In 1983, the bottom 95 percent of all income earners in the United States had 62 cents of debt for ever dollar that they earned.  Today, the bottom 95 percent of all income earners in the United States have $1.48 of debt for every dollar that they earn.

56. The United States was once ranked #1 in the world in GDP per capita.  Today we have slipped to #12.

57. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, 49 percent of all Americans live in a home where at least one person receives benefits from the federal government.  Back in 1983, that number was below 30 percent.

58. Incredibly, 37 percent of all U.S. households that are led by someone under the age of 35 have a net worth of zero or less than zero.

59. Today there are approximately 25 million American adults that are living with their parents.

60. The U.S. dollar has lost more than 96 percent of its value since 1900.  You can thank the Federal Reserve system for that.

61. During the Obama administration, the U.S. government has accumulated more debt than it did from the time that George Washington took office to the time that Bill Clinton took office.

62. Overall, the U.S. national debt has grown by nearly 10 trillion dollars over the past decade.

63. The U.S. national debt is now more than 22 times larger than it was when Jimmy Carter became president.

64. 40 years ago the total amount of debt in America (government, business and consumer) was less than 2 trillion dollars.  Today it is nearly 55 trillion dollars.

65. As Financial Armageddon recently point out, so many homeless people are pooping on the escalators at San Francisco's Civic Center Station at night that the escalators are breaking down and repair teams have been called in to clean up the mess.  As the economy gets even worse, will scenes like this start playing out in all of our cities?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Larry Bees
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« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2012, 12:01:12 PM »


10. Since Barack Obama became president, the price of a gallon of gasoline has risen from $1.85 to $3.49.


First of all let me say that I am not an Obama lover! But although the price of gas may have been $1.85 when he took over, it was Bush JR who raised the price from $1.29 to $4.00 + when he did his 8 years of screwing us over.

You can blame Obama for a lot of things, but this one belongs to Bush, JR ! After all, he and his rich Texas buddies are in the oil business, you know!

Larry
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kathyp
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« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2012, 01:44:07 PM »

to be honest, i don't think the president has much to do with the price of oil....except to the extent that he/she makes domestic production harder or easier.  this is one of the few places where congress has little to do with things.

when the prices went up under bush, he opened up domestic drilling and made it easier for companies to get permits to drill on federal land.  the price when down because the market anticipated more oil entering. 
obama has made it more difficult for domestic drilling and what he did in the gulf added to the problems.  in addition, the mandates on fuel and fuel mixes, ethanol as an example, drive the price up and will, with a shortage of grain, drive them up again. 

the oil markets are international and our only real influence on them is our ability to add or take from the overall supply.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
AllenF
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« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2012, 04:55:52 PM »

Good list there.  I might have to borrow some of it. 
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hardwood
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Alysian Apiaries youtube.com/MrBeedude


« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2012, 05:27:24 PM »

I caught an ad not long ago but wasn't really paying attention. I think it was a big oil (American if there is such a thing) company touting its us of sugar cane for ethanol..."bout time!

Scott
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"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...And we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

Theodore Roosevelt 1907
kingbee
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« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2012, 10:15:36 PM »

... when the prices went up under bush, he opened up domestic drilling and made it easier for companies to ...drill on federal land... the price when down because the market anticipated more oil...
 
obama has made it more difficult for domestic drilling and what he did in the gulf added to the problems...
the oil markets are international and our only real influence on them is our ability to add or take from the overall supply.


That last part may be true for crude oil production kathyp, but what about electricity rates?  They are not international or even national but regional or in some cases local.  Remember, Obama promised us that his policies would "...cause electric rates to necessarily  soar."  How's an 800% increase in your light bill sound to you all?  Well it's already in Obama's pipeline, headed your way.  It’ll be there in 2015.  Anybody still want to buy a spiffy new extractor?  What’s the point, you'll need all your bees wax for candles so you can see to read and fight your repossession and eviction notices.  2015 will be here before you know it.  How’s that "Change you can believe in" thing working for you?

Today’s news:

The OhioAmerican Energy company announced it would close its coal mine near Brilliant, Ohio on Tuesday. There is no question whatsoever about the reason for the shutdown, because the company made it abundantly clear in their press release… .

“OhioAmerican Energy, Inc. …a Subsidiary of Murray Energy Corporation (“Murray Energy”), today announced the closure of its coal mining operations near Brilliant, Jefferson County, Ohio.

Regulatory actions by President Barack Obama and his appointees and followers were cited as the entire reason. “Mr. Obama has already destroyed 83,000 megawatts of coal-fired electricity generation [capacity] in America,” said Mr. Michael T. W. Carey, Vice President of Government Affairs for Murray Energy. “Electric prices in the recent PJM Interconnection monthly auction were bid up 800 percent (8 times) for 2015-2016 because of this,” he added.  “At its peak, OhioAmerican employed 239 local people in high-paying, well-benefited jobs,” said Mr. Stanley T. Piasecki, General Manager and Superintendent. “University studies show that our Mines can create up to eleven (11) secondary jobs in our communities, for store clerks, teachers, etc., to serve our direct employees. Thus, if one uses the eleven (11) to one (1) multiplier, the Obama Administration has destroyed 2,868 jobs in eastern Ohio with this forced Mine closure,” stated Mr. Piasecki….”

Read the whole press release at this link…
http://www.humanevents.com/2012/08/01/obama-regulations-kill-ohio-coal-mine-hundreds-of-jobs-wiped-out/

Bold highlights are provided by myself.
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kathyp
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« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2012, 10:18:22 PM »

i was talking about oil, but good point on the coal.  coal fired plants are closing at a record rate.  this was obamas goal and one that he seems able to see though.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2012, 01:31:50 AM »

Good Grief!  Don’t any of you pay attention to the marketplace?  Commodity prices?  Capitalism?  It’s called economics people, when natural gas is lower cost per mbtu than coal, why on EARTH would you burn mercury tainted, fly ash producing, CO2 generating coal?

 huh huh huh
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AllenF
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« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2012, 02:40:09 PM »

Because it cost too much to build nat gas power plants.   Still cheaper to use the existing ones and burn coal.   Big power companies would not throw money away if they could save money with gas. 
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« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2012, 02:44:30 PM »

That is a valid point Allen, but then we have this:

Quote
coal fired plants are closing at a record rate.

My point is, many coal plants are old and need to be replaced.  Why would you build a new coal plant when natural gas is cheaper and cleaner?  It isn't about some vast Obama conspiracy theory, it's simple economics.
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kathyp
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« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2012, 04:49:59 PM »

November SURPRISE Obama to Bankrupt Coal Industry Energy to SKYROCKET!!!


i tend to believe what people say....even when they don't really intend that i do.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/28/science/earth/epa-sets-greenhouse-emission-limits-on-new-power-plants.html

there is something else about coal.  we have some of the cleanest coal in the world.  we export to a lot of countries that are industrializing and using coal.  if they are not burning our cleaner coal, they will be, at the same rate, burning someones dirty coal.  so, yes, you can restrict our coal use in this country.  you can frack all the gas out of the ground you want, and have more expensive power plants.  in the end, pollution is global and we have just made it worse.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2012, 05:37:17 PM »

  It seems universal that nobody is considering the fact that coal (black, brown or brindle)and natural gas are finite commodities. I believe that my great grand children will be OK but after that surely the planet will be dependent on nuclear, hydrogen, solar, wind and tidal but the power brokers of this world are not looking any further than their next dollar or their gigantic egos.
  The politicians in this lovely land (Australia) seem absolutely hell bent on increasing the population without any thought to the increased infrastructures needed, the need for more energy requirements or the destruction of a lot of our natural assets and assimilation of numerous migrant cultures is not working.
  So much for change for the sake of change.
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« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2012, 08:00:35 AM »

Here in the USA our president has been trying to think beyond tomorrow and has been promoting solar and wind power, but he get’s relentless criticism from the far right (Republicans) for trying to use anything other than mercury laden coal.  We even have some people here (Republicans again) that don’t believe hydrocarbons are a finite commodity.  They think they are regenerated deep underground and will last forever.  All we have to do to solve our problems is “drill, baby drill”.  Welcome to Oz my friend!
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« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2012, 08:56:53 AM »

How's that Solar power working out?   Right... Bankrupt.  If we end up paying $5 for a gallon of gas because you "far lefters" would rather get further in the hole by letting the rest of the world supply our gas without us having any control over the environmental repercussions then the US won't be around for long.  Who causes more harm... Us drilling or Iraq?  Sure it's finite, but we won't be around to see it run out if we keep letting out government and Obama run us further into the ground.
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kathyp
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« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2012, 09:52:20 AM »

i don't have a problem with alternative energy.  i DO have a problem with the government taking my money and picking winners and losers in the alternative energy game.  that's what the markets are for and the markets are what bring us viable/affordable products.

guess which two alternative energy sources are proven and available already??  hydro and nuclear.  guess who blocks both?  the loony left.  guess who's blocking solar farms?  anybody?  guess who's blocking wind farms....extra 10 points for that one!!   grin

so yeah, i wouldn't be laying the failure of alternative energy development on the republicans.  first it needs to work.  then it needs to be cost effective.  but the real sticker in all of it is the cost and time getting through the EPA and the lizard loving nuts. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2012, 11:35:50 AM »

Yea that alternative energy works great. The last time I saw a picture of Obama getting off Airforce One I think I saw a big solar panel on top of the airplane, so I guess it is now powered by solar. But I could be mistaken. grin And that campaign bus he bought from Canada. I was told by an unnamed source that it is powered by a windmill. grin
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kingbee
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« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2012, 05:39:55 PM »

quote author=BlueBee link=topic=38540.msg323509#msg323509 date=1343885510]... Don’t any of you pay attention to the marketplace? ...when natural gas is lower [in] cost per mbtu than coal, why on EARTH would you burn mercury tainted, fly ash producing, CO2 generating coal? ...[/quote]

Good Grief Charley Brown... uh Blue.  If it were not for the current fracking boom, on private land no less, Prince Obama would have Natural Gas producers flopping like a fish out of water.  His EPA director and designated Ahab, Lisa Jackson already has the coal industry floundering like harpooned whales.  Besides I would think that an Obama supporter would be the last person on Earth to pay attention to the free market, what gives?

The facts are that the whole Obama presidency is predicated on the lie that you and me (OK then mostly me) are holding Polar bears' heads under water until they drown.  The POTUS promised to raise ("NECESSARILY SKYROCKET” is his own words) the electric rates of everyone in America, regardless of the fuel used to generate their electricity.  Natural gas producers only managed to dodge Obama's arrows of outrageous misfortune by drilling on private land.  

Blue, please listen to Obama's Freudian slip in the below you tube link.
Obama: My Plan Makes Electricity Rates Skyrocket


The President's TelePrompTer must have been on the Fritz that day because Obama da**ed electricity made using "Natural Gas" in the same breath he da**ed electricity made using coal.  He almost caught his mistake but his real agenda leaked out.  Watch his eyes in this link, he is not even an accomplished liar little less Presidential material, but he is working on it, the lying part that is.  President Obama must think all the world's problems can be solved by darkness because his only path to success seems to be to feed us BS and keep us in the dark like mushrooms, both figuratively and through a lack of affordable electricity.

As you can see by the words coming from his own mouth, Obama is intent on forcing a Nigerian banking scam that he calls "Cap and Trade" down the throats of every electric rate payer in America.  Meanwhile human mummies found frozen in the Arctic PROVE that Mercury was much more common in the environment (Especially in sea food) 500 years ago than it is today.  

I sure nope the little old granny women can still knit and crochet up a storm, 'cause' we're gonna need some warm cheap duds to weather the storms in if the Barrack Ness Monster is re-elected.

« Last Edit: August 05, 2012, 05:28:05 PM by kingbee » Logged
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« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2012, 06:38:54 PM »

     All we have to do to solve our problems is “drill, baby drill”.

Becomes a bit boring doesn't it  !!
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« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2012, 07:19:31 PM »

Geoff, our right wingers in the USA have an over active imagination that keeps them from getting bored.  They live in a fantasy land where nothing ever runs out!  I think they dream about drilling every night.
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« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2012, 07:20:58 PM »

Why are our right wing conservative friends so enamored with coal?  Dare I ask?  Why do you want to pay more for your BTUs?   

Yes most natural gas is fracked under private land.  Then again most land in the USA is PRIVATE land.  Is there something wrong with getting natural gas from under private land?

As for the skyrocketing electric rate myth, where are they?  Are they lost along with Obama’s real birth certificate?
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kathyp
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« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2012, 07:27:11 PM »

Quote
Becomes a bit boring doesn't it  !!

but it works.  according to the brilliant scientists of my childhood, we should have run out of oil long ago.  instead, we find more and more of it.  i remember when i lived in KY and they were wringing their hands that we'd run out of coal....but not even close.  we have found cheaper and more efficient ways to extract natural gas and it is abundant.

i do believe that the first companies that come up with viable and affordable alternatives to fossil fuels will make gazillions of dollars.  i will probably invest in them and get a bit for myself  grin.
i don't have a problem with incentivising  companies who can come up with real alternatives.  incentivising is NOT the same as subsidizing.

when companies come up with new ideas, they beat each other over the  head to get them to market.  hydrogen fuel cells, electric cars, etc.  so far, most of these things have been either seriously flawed, or overly expensive.  one of the best alternatives for electricity production is solar.  even though the initial investment for homeowners is steep, the cost recovery time is relatively short.  solar companies need to work on the life span of the panels, but even that is much, much, better than it was.  in places like AZ, solar farms would be a great way to generate electricity for the grid....if not for that pesky lizard.
in my area, we have an excess, most years, of water.  hydro is clean and also controls flooding.  we should be throwing up new dams all over the place but we are tearing them down for the sake of fish.  

can't have everything folks......

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2012, 07:30:36 PM »

Quote
  Then again most land in the USA is PRIVATE land.  Is there something wrong with getting natural gas from under private land?


i believe the point might be that if it were federal land, the permits and leases would not be issued....as they are not being issued for oil drilling. 

here is a map representing what the federal government owns.  wouldn't it be nice if the people could benefit from the land that belongs to the people?

http://bigthink.com/strange-maps/291-federal-lands-in-the-us
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2012, 10:23:09 PM »

... Yes most natural gas is fracked under private land.  Then again most land in the USA is PRIVATE land.  Is there something wrong with getting natural gas from under private land?... ?

I don't give a fig for President Obama's birth certificate or his lack there of.  It is a red herring that the left trots out every time they are at a lost for words to use in defending the in-defensible, so they send up the birth certificate smoke screen and attack the messenger instead.  Notice I called President Obama "President" because he is still my leader and I honor his office.  Now I ask you to honor me by sticking to the facts at hand. 

To refresh your memory the facts are these.  The "President" did not make any distinction between natural gas produced from below private lands or natural gas produced from beneath public lands?  Am I correct?  If I am the “President”  is opposed to all forms of coal, gas, and petroleum energy.  You may as well add hydro-electric, nuclear and most bio-mass energy forms to that as well, all the “President’s shifty eyed  stuttering, and stammering about creating jobs not withstanding.  Get over President” Obama's birth certificate and get to work either proving me wrong or else proving "President" Obama is right.  That should be easy for the many smart and un-bored “President” Obama supporters among us.   

Since you broached the subject, about 30% of all land in the United States is public.  Yea, public means owned by the government.  In other words 1 acre out of every 3 acres is government or public land, for the math challenged that means about 2 acres out of every 3 acres are private lands.   That also makes the Federal government by far the largest land owner in the USA with 650 million acres in direct holdings.  But who’se counting?

In a matter related to killing the coal industry, lead EPA  harpoonist Lisa Jackson recently dropped an EPA lawsuit she filed on “President” Obama’s behest against a Texas gas fracking company.  She did this when the media learned that when Santa Anna and the Comanche still ruled Texas that the well water in that part of Texas burst into flames when a lit match was held near it.  Nice try Lisa but no cigar.  Truth is not the special providence of either the Left or the Right.  Truth stands tall on its own two feet, and without the need for a birth certificate crutch.
 
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« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2012, 11:24:21 AM »

As I recall,in Utah i believe it is, we have some of the cleanest burning coal in the world. Then President Clinton ,by executive order ruled it unobtainable by declaring it a national monument.  The State of Utah opposed this,you know ,the citizens of Utah.In this case, if we wanted to buy clean coal it now had to come from Indonesia,benefiting the  Riady family. These people are foreign nationals. And this was a direct payback to contributions to the Democrat party by foreign nationals.Follow the trends.
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/lippo.htm
Look at who these people are appeasing. We have clean burning coal.
Whose special interests are being looked out for.Surely not the interests of the American people.
Crushing our economy is first and foremost with these people. And they are succeeding.
We have the hole in the ozone layer,global warming,,coal is bad ,oil is bad ,and even windframs are bad because you may have a few birds killed.
We have locked up the water for use by farmers in the San Joaquin Valley to protect the Delta Smelt which were not indigineous to the area they are protecting them.This is a man made drought to destroy commerce in the western bread basket.
http://reason.com/blog/2012/02/29/delta-smelt-v-central-valley-farmers-the
People need to wake up to the tactics being used and their underlying purpose.
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« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2012, 11:36:17 AM »

Just a thought on our public lands and National monuments.
Although it may have been natural causes,lets start limiting access to 'public" lands.
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=97661&page=1
It's just the first step of many.Soon you will only be able to get a video tour.  But what the heck, we should be able to lay off a lot of federal employees,which could be a good thing. I can see some sunshine there.
 Aww but heck,they would need to replace them with armed thugs to keep the public from public lands.
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« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2012, 01:34:24 AM »

As for the energy discussion, why not let natural market forces drive the industry direction with respect to coal vs nat gas vs renewable, and at the same time let the government seed research and development for new technologies for the longer range energy policy?  Business people tend to be smart folks and given a level playing field and rules of the game they will deliver the most efficient solution.  When you add in government intervention it distorts the playing field and causes artificial pressures on supply and demand.  Which usually drives up cost, which in the end winds up being like a tax on the consumer. For example, coal becomes necessarily more costly, in order to make less efficient technologies appear more attractive. 

So acknowledging that coal and gas supplies are finite, when the supplies start becoming limited, basic economics indicates that given the same demand, costs/prices will increase naturally, and at some point, renewable energy sources/technologies will naturally become more attractive cost/price wise.  Improved technologies in the renewable arena will hasten the transition, but forcing it before its time just increases the cost to the average consumer, which takes away their spending power.  More spent on energy, less spent elsewhere.

Anecdotally, the quote I received for a solar set up to meet my household electric requirements showed a 60 year payback... SIXTY YEARS?  The useful life of the equipment is at best 30 years.  I would be happy to put in solar, at the point when it is economically viable.  Which it will be one day.  But not yet.  Most solar installations I see in our area are for government buildings.  It doesn't seem to have to make sense economically for the government since they are suing OPM (other people's money).

So Bluebee your passion for nat gas and renewable energy sources is admirable, but why would you be willing to place this cost burden/tax on the lower and middle class?
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« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2012, 03:06:55 AM »

Hey Boom Buzz, your arguments sound reasonable and I will agree that renewables are not even close to commercial viability at this point.  I favor research (even tax dollars) for those things because they will be very important in the future; that is a good investment IMO.  I do not favor subsidizing technology that is not viable at this time; not the Volt, not solynda, not windmills, not ethanol, not nuclear.  

My beef with our conservative friends is over coal.  I see no good reason for pushing coal when we have a glut of natural gas that is cheaper and cleaner burning.  In a perfect world, I would like to get rid of all the fossil fuels, but I live in reality here.

A side note; those of us in the Great Lakes region are really getting hammered at the gas pump again.  Prices jumped about 40 cents over night and we’re back to $4 a gallon.  I heard Chicago is pushing $4.50/gal.  Supposedly a couple of refineries in IL had some “problem” and the Canadian pipe line which dumped a bunch of crude into the Kalamazoo river a couple years ago failed AGAIN; this time in Wisconsin Sad  Our dependence on this stuff will eventually be our undoing.  
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« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2012, 11:10:51 AM »

one of the things that will drive fuel prices in the next year will be the ethanol mandate.  if it is true that we have lost 50% of our corn crop and we already know that there is a world wide grain issue, then mandating that a % of our fuel come from a reduced grain crop will drive cost up.  it will also increase prices at the grocery store as there is very little that isn't impacted by grain prices.  the grain market, like the oil market, is international....except when countries like Russia decide not to play.

a large part of the cost of fuel can be laid at the state and federal feet.  between fuel mix mandates and taxes.....and the difficulty in getting more local refineries built, i don't see the fuel situation getting better.  the cost of crude can be driven down in a number of ways, but at this point i suspect that lower per barrel costs would invite more state and federal taxes.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2012, 11:16:24 AM »

http://www.lvrj.com/opinion/costs-conflicts-arise-in-reid-push-for-green-power-164858086.html

this kind of goes along with the conversation.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2012, 02:01:21 PM »

... It seems universal that nobody is considering the fact that coal ...[is a] finite commodities... The politicians in this lovely land (Australia) seem absolutely hell bent on increasing the population without any thought to the increased infrastructures needed...

Quite true Geoff.  Did you ever consider that the politicans are smarter than us voters and the politicians know that we are on an unsustainable path with the current level of government provided social services.   So since politicians will be politicians they are attempting to create more new, young productive, and compliant tax payers as they are able to keep the social services scam going until the politicans pass on to their "heavenly" or whatever other reward evil they have earned? 

Hey, I just discovered way pigeons all poop on politicians' statues!!!   grin  rolleyes
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« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2012, 02:05:55 PM »

It's not poop,it's a renewable energy source!! grin
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« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2012, 03:06:48 PM »

there is another reason for some to be concerned with increasing certain parts of the population.  most 1st world countries are experiencing negative birth rates.  in most countries this means importing 3rd world labor.  in some countries like Japan, it means that they are now, for the first time, having to house the elderly because there is no family to tend them. 

it was the 1st worlders who bought into the population bomb crap and never gave a thought to what that would mean for their own future.  what happens when the imported 3rd world labor becomes the majority?  they own the country and they change the culture. + in many places, European countries in particular, they will not have the opportunity to move up and become fully integrated. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2012, 03:08:06 PM »

... a solar set up... showed a 60 year payback... SIXTY YEARS?  The useful life of the equipment is at best 30 years... Most solar installations... in our area are for government buildings.  It doesn't seem to have to make sense economically for the government... they are suing OPM (other people's money)...

Yep. I guess that is why Amtrack pays $16.00 to sell a $9.00 hamburger that Wimpy will gladly pay you a quarter for next Tuesday.

The true beauty of being a right wing cave man in flyover country is that the liberals keep you so well supplied with AAA ammo.
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« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2012, 04:21:18 PM »

Here’s a sickening expense we all paid for:  $26 a gallon for biodiesel for Navel exercises in the Pacific this month.    

 http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/on-energy/2012/07/19/the-navys-use-of-biofuels-is-inefficient-and-costly

Spending $26 a gallon on diesel is what I call pure corporate welfare.  I’m not against spending $$ on research, but let’s not burn a ton of the stuff until costs come down to $5 a gallon!
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« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2012, 05:55:32 PM »

Bluebee, we're not seeing the gas price hike you mentioned here in Colorado.  87 octane at $3.39 still which is as low as its been in a long while.

The article on the Navy's use of biofuels is spot on with the points I was trying to make with respect to government interference/manipulation in markets creates inefficiencies and waste.  The article Kathy posted on Senator Reid and energy in Nevada makes the point as well.  Government interference typically leads to higher costs which ultimately are born by "the people."  You called it "corporate welfare" which makes me think you are saying the this was done to give a benefit to a corporation, however I tend to think of it as a political agenda in which the government, through policy or regulation drives inefficiencies that winds up being a wind fall for one company/industry, and a short fall for another.  If the government weren't driving a political agenda, there would have been a different outcome.  Ie., the navy would have used diesel fuel at closer to $5 per gallon.

The bigger point is...government interference/political agendas have become so invasive that most of the 65 points in the original post can be traced back to government policy and regulation and the ill effects they have on our country and society.  We need government for protection and to preserve rights and freedom, but right now our government has grown to big and powerful and thus is impinging on rights and freedom.  My opinion is both parties are guilty.  But at least the conservative side pretends to represent less government and more freedom.

Not trying to pick on you, but just offering food for thought.  Back to coal versus nat gas.  As a conservative, I am for letting natural market forces enable a transition.  I am not beholden to coal, nor nat gas.  I just think it makes since to use the resource that can provide the most economical electricity given a certain level of air cleanliness.  If it that means coal for the time being given the current infrastructure and plants in place then so be it.  If it means using nat gas, then good, bring it on.

Peace!
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« Reply #35 on: August 05, 2012, 06:48:02 PM »

Quote
Here’s a sickening expense we all paid for:  $26 a gallon for biodiesel for Navel exercises in the Pacific this month. 

this is not the choice of the navy.  let me tell you something else that no one talked about...over the last few years, training and defense cruises have been cut short because of fuel costs.  this means that ships are not getting the sea time they need, sailors are not getting the training, and we are not protecting the shipping lanes.  ships that should have been out roaming the seas have been sitting in various ports rather than burning fuel.

Quote
You called it "corporate welfare" which makes me think you are saying the this was done to give a benefit to a corporation, however I tend to think of it as a political agenda in which the government, through policy or regulation drives inefficiencies that winds up being a wind fall for one company/industry, and a short fall for another.  If the government weren't driving a political agenda, there would have been a different outcome.  Ie., the navy would have used diesel fuel at closer to $5 per gallon.

it is entirely political.  it is to pacify groups like green peace.  it has nothing to do with where the money is going.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #36 on: August 05, 2012, 07:58:50 PM »

... we all paid $26 a gallon for biodiesel for Navel exercises in the Pacific this month...

Tell it to the commander in chief.  He afterall is the Supreme Commander of all the Armed Forces of the United States of America.  He also did his Seargent Schultz impersonation ("I knows nooothing") a month earlier when the U.S.A.F. shelled out... are you ready for this?  $59 bucks a gallon for renewable jet fuel.  shocked LOL  grin
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« Reply #37 on: August 05, 2012, 09:47:50 PM »

This may be the perfect time to adopt the tag line, “Be careful of that for which you yearn, because you just may receive it.”  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degrowth

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 “Degrowth …is a political, economic, and social movement based on environmentalist, anti-consumerist and anti-capitalist ideas. Degrowth …activists advocate for the downscaling of production and consumption… Key to the concept of degrowth is that reducing consumption does not require individual martyring and a decrease in well-being. Rather, 'degrowthists' aim to maximize happiness and well-being through non-consumptive means… sharing work, consuming less, …devoting more time to art, music, family, culture and community…”

[II]  …Technologies designed to reduce resource use and improve efficiency are often touted as sustainable or green solutions. However, degrowth opposes these technological advances on the ground of what is referred to as the "rebound effect". This concept is based on observations that when a less resource-exhaustive technology is introduced… consumption of that technology will increase [like wind, or solar energy use] …proponents of degrowth hold that the only effective 'sustainable' solutions must involve a complete rejection of… growth… and a move toward a degrowth [sustainable] paradigm…”

[III]  “Marxists distinguish between two types of growth: that which is useful… and that which… exists to increase profits… Marxists consider that it is the …control of production [by someone other than themselves] that is the determinant… They believe that control… [exercised only by them] …enable social and economic development”

[IV]  “The concept of degrowth is viewed as contradictory when applied to lesser-developed countries… the majority of supporters of degrowth advocate …a certain… level of well-being independent of growth. The question of where the balance lies (i.e. how much the developed nations should [or must] degrowth by)… remains open.”

The Bold Italics were added by myself for both emphasis and for clarity.

Paragraph [IV] “a certain level of well-being independent of growth”  is the perfect paradigm for Man Made Global Warming’s Cap and Trade, i.e. spread the wealth around International Socialism scheme.
Earlier this year at a global climate conference in Durban South Africa a near riot erupted when it became clear that industrial nations, including Brazil, China, India and the United States were not going to commit economic suicide so the people of South Africa or anywhere else could enjoy “a certain level of well-being” without a certain level of work or investment.

Folks, all this sustainable agriculture, sustainable development, sustainable this that or the other bull crap is nothing more than  a continuation of the 1960s Height Asbury Hippy temper tantrum.  It was conceived in a drug induced haze, birthed into a make believe world constructed from psychedelic chemicals and suckled on lies.  
I even suspect that the first human who walked away from his dank natal cave and constructed himself airy animal skin hovel on the plains of Africa endured the same abuse Liberals heap on Conservatives today.  

I therefore ask you, who is the greatest danger to American’s Middle Class, Mitt Romney or the current administration in Washington, DC that is mostly dominated by, controlled by, and empowered by degrowth activist?   Remember, “Be careful of that for which you yearn, because you just may receive it.”
« Last Edit: August 05, 2012, 10:45:11 PM by kingbee » Logged
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« Reply #38 on: August 05, 2012, 10:40:09 PM »

it's a modernization of Marx/Engles.  i do wish people spent some time reading all that they wrote.  the wrote different things to different audiences. but the end desire was the same.  they would have had happy cave men doing only manual labor...in the name of saving jobs and saving the environment.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #39 on: August 05, 2012, 11:14:45 PM »

it's a modernization of Marx/Engles....

Marx and Engels was a modernization of the 18th Century Luddite movement that grew out of the Industrial Revolution.  The Luddites were famous for destroying factories, smashing machinery, murdering timekeepers, and killing factory owners. 

The word "Sabotage" is a French term from the Luddite period and the word comes from the French word for a wooden shoe.  Sabotage is therefore the deliberate use of ones' own wooden shoes to foul, break or stop industrial machinery.  Models of efficiency the French.
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