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Author Topic: counting bees  (Read 4233 times)
Wandering Buddhist
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« on: September 25, 2005, 03:14:24 PM »

There was a book popular recently, The Da Vinci Code.  In it, it is mentioned that females outnumber males in the beehive, at all times, by a ratio of 1.618 to 1.  

Many folk have asked me if this is true.  I have never counted so exactly all of the bees in a hive, let alone tried to segregate them, so I do not know.

Do any of you know whether or not that figure is accurate?
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stilllearning
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« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2005, 04:36:08 PM »

The numbers you posted indicate approx 1 1/2 females for each male
that would be worker to drone
I have never seen a ratio close to that even with a laying worker
there are times of the year when the drone population is close to and can even reach zero that alone would make the ratio wrong.

to state the ratio of female to males is ever static in a hive would be wrong
as it changes daily.

I am sure the book is listed as fiction if you check a little with a library
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Wayne Cole
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« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2005, 04:49:19 PM »

If you extrapolate the number without the decimal point, that is 1618 instead of 1.618 to 1 then you get 40 drones for 64,720 workers. Which is also wrong because in a healthy hive (average 50 to 60 thousand) you would have a couple of hundred drones. Upshot is..... I have no idea where they came up with those numbers! cheesy
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bassman1977
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« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2005, 05:42:42 PM »

If nothing else, it is an excellent book.
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Wandering Buddhist
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« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2005, 07:17:24 PM »

Wayne, no need to “check a little with a library” to know that the book in question is a work of fiction.  Still, it being fiction does not indicate that every statement in the book is false.  The book also mentions a fellow named Jesus.  Is there a need to look that one up?  Is there really a painting called the Mona Lisa?  You get the idea.

Jay, I am not sure about that calculation.  I believe you may have mistook the decimal point for a comma.

Bassman, yes, I agree, it was a good read (even it is fiction).
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zan
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« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2005, 04:39:30 AM »

If you can find point C on length AB such that is AB/AC = AC/CB you can easy construct pentagram.
This is cold golden ratio or golden section and is (1+SQRT(5))/2 or 1.618…
You can find more about this with google.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2005, 06:51:39 AM »

It is the correct ratio of female acestors to male ancestors for a drone.

It is not the correct ratio of females to males in the hive at ANY time of the year.  It is NEVER that high unless you have a laying worker or a drone laying queen and then the hive is in dire straights.

But then the ratio changes throughout the year.  In the middle of winter it's 10,0000:0.  Smiley  In the middle of swarm season it's about 10:1.  Right now my hives look like about 200:1.
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Michael Bush
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Wandering Buddhist
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« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2005, 07:22:42 AM »

Zan, I haven't much of a head for those formulas.

Michael, thanks, that is just what I needed.
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zan
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« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2005, 08:54:04 AM »

Sorry. I just love math.
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Wandering Buddhist
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« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2005, 09:36:30 AM »

On, I think it is great that you understand that stuff so well.  I am just jealous.  I could never wrap my brain around those complicated equations.
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Finsky
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« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2005, 11:19:16 AM »

Quote from: Wandering Buddhist
On, I think it is great that you understand that stuff so well.  .


Sorry, but I understand that you are all out of mind shocked

When I was a kid, we like to count how many wagons train has. We did not noticed to  calculate ratios.
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bassman1977
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« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2005, 12:23:50 PM »

Quote
Sorry, but I understand that you are all out of mind


 cheesy  Thanks Finsky, I needed a good laugh.   cheesy
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Jay
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« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2005, 12:26:29 PM »

Ditto me!!
I'm alright as long as the equations have numbers in them, when they start shifting to letters I'm sunk! shocked
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« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2005, 01:59:53 PM »

I remember the book and that is what it claimed and it was wrong.  I assue that Mr. M Bush has the right formulation.  I can't prove it, but it has something to do with the fact that a drone doesn't have a father, but has a grandfather. and this repeats in sequence,  since the grand father doesn't have a father.  etc. etc.


-- RANT BELOW ----

 I Loved the book when I read it, but I was faithful to look at the story behind the story and the book makes some pretty radical statements that are unjustified and just plain wrong.    This will get worse with the release of the movie next spring.
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Finsky
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« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2005, 02:53:05 PM »

Quote from: leominsterbeeman
I can't prove it, but it has something to do with the fact that a drone doesn't have a father, but has a grandfather. and this repeats in sequence,  since the grand father doesn't have a father.  etc. etc.



But let's have a look about drones father at chromosome base.

1) Italian yellows have line and every emerged queen is yellow.
2) One beautifull day a virgin queen meets  10 yellow drones and 7 black drones.
3) Hive gets pure italians and crossed italian workers. Next summer hive makes 2 swarms and it needs 3 new queens for every colony.

4) By accident one is pure italians and 2 are crossed quite black queens.

5) When these queens make drones, and others are yellow and others quite black ones, we surely say that that crossed queens  father was a black one. Difficult to say that grandfather was black.  

6) The same fathers were fathers boath to queen and to drones. .. But are drones queen's stepbrothers or...?

But if someone does not know what means father, let's have a lesson about flowers and bees which hade one beautifull day  a queen...a flight... and 2000 drones and of which 17 drones  found same young queen ..and ..OR were they 17 grandfathers which ...
.
.
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bassman1977
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« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2005, 10:46:37 PM »

ALRIGHTY THEN!  WHEW!!!!!!!  Did you hear that from your best friend's sister's niece's cousin's mother's father's baby brother?   cheesy
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zan
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« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2005, 04:03:53 AM »

That is not so complicate. I can say ratio between bigger part and hole length equal ratio between lower part and bigger part. We have same ratio around us. Width and length of hives defined the shape. Some people thinks that golden ratio has some relation with beauty.
And Finsky, maybe some trains have more wagons then another, maybe two times more and here we are.
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stilllearning
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« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2005, 07:45:42 AM »

Quote from: Wandering Buddhist
Wayne, no need to “check a little with a library” to know that the book in question is a work of fiction.  Still, it being fiction does not indicate that every statement in the book is false.  The book also mentions a fellow named Jesus.  Is there a need to look that one up?  Is there really a painting called the Mona Lisa?  You get the idea.

BEING DESIGNATED as fiction by an author doesn't necessarily mean
its contents are true or false.

Much of our Historical fiction contains some turth, look at the  Congressionla Record of the United States  It can be and frequently is edited by the congressman before publication to contain things that are entirely different than what they said on the floor.

As to Mr. Browns book, I have not read it so I dont know what context he
is refering to Jesus, a very popular name among the Latin American's I work with, in Tex Mex (a spanish dialect) it is called He-sus.   The Mona Lisa , one of the most copied paintings in history also the name of a girl I used to go to school with.

I would expect a college professor teaching beekeeping in a foreign country to be able to give us the best answer as to the make up of the population of a beehive
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Wayne Cole
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« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2005, 08:44:31 AM »

I knew a Mona Lisa back in school also. Coronado High, Early seventies.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2005, 10:01:12 AM »

"Drones are the males in the colony.  Note the general shape of the drone.  Notice two things: 1) the head is large and the eyes predominate the head and 2) the rear-end of the drone is rounded [they have no stinger and can not sting].   Although they are usually considered worthless, they  contribute to the continuation of  one generation to the next generation.  The worker bees usually determine the number of drones that can be found in a colony.  A strong healthy colony may have as many as 300 or more drones.  As winter approaches, the workers drive the drones from the hive to starve. "

http://www.gobeekeeping.com/lesson_one.htm



"A colony of bees comprises of several thousand workers, a queen, and a varying number of drones (sexually developed males)."

http://safs.csl.gov.uk/sanimal.cfm?name=bee


"The total life-span of a drone is about 60 days, unless they mate, when their life ends immediately. They are ready to mate 10 - 14 days after emergence from the cell. They do little else except eat honey and pollen, and contribute a little to the warmth of the nest. They are mostly killed or forced to leave the hive by the workers in late summer or autumn, although a few may survive into the winter, and it is usual to see a few drones at any time in the colony. The maximum number of drones is seen in late spring and early summer. "

http://www.scottishbeekeepers.org.uk/sbav2/beecraft/life.php


"Depending on the colony, the number of drones varies from a few hundred to a few thousand. Under natural conditions not more than 10 percent of the colony will consist of drones"

http://lfa.atu.edu/brucker/Engl2053/engl2053outart3.htm
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Michael Bush
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Wandering Buddhist
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« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2005, 10:32:13 AM »

Wayne  huh ...

Inasmuch as fiction applies to writing, fiction is a literary work where the content is a product of the author’s imagination and is not necessarily based on fact.  That is, there is an expectation that the contents are anecdotal fabrications, or put another way, storytelling.  So, yes, a book that is fiction is considered to be just that- fiction.  Ergo, “BEING DESIGNATED as fiction by an author” DOES “necessarily mean its contents are… false.”

All storytelling, no matter the genre, contains some truth.  One cannot accurately label a revision or amendment of a congressional record a work of fiction, unless one is trying to make a political statement (and if you are, I suggest you take that thought to The Coffee House where it would be more appropriate).

Even without having read the book in question I assume you are familiar with the most famous Jesus of all (the carpenter from Nazareth).  As you rightly point out, amongst the Latin American community, many men are named Jesus, obviously as the namesake of the aforementioned Jesus.  Probably most of the women in their families are named Maria (Ana Maria, Maria Pilar, etc.).  But when one is stung and shouts “Jesus!” I do not think that s/he is referring to the fellow who works in the kitchen; so that point should have been clear.   rolleyes

To your last point: were I a college professor of entomology you would have a reasonable expectation.  But you assumption there is incorrect.  I teach etymology.  While the terms appear to be similar and are often confused, they are quite different.  But I thank you for the attempt to discredit me, sir!

I am surprised that you are old enough to have gone to school with Mona.  wink
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stilllearning
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« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2005, 04:57:42 PM »

To discredit you was never my intention, if you feel discredited, consider this an apology.  I mearly ment someone with your probable resourses
had better answers for some of the questions.

I never figured you to teach etomology, I really suspected you to teach
relegious theology based on you posting name and attitude you
have shown in the banner here.

I dont appear to have been to far off, I dont think you can study culture without studying relegion

I have worked for a number of years with educators who taught in
subjects other than their disipline so I am not surprised.

As to my age, you would be surprised
I graduated from college some 40 years ago

Have a good day, and I have no political agenda, I gave that up when
I met JFK before he was president.
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Wayne Cole
Wandering Buddhist
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« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2005, 05:04:26 PM »

Wayne

What I do not know about bees would fill a warehouse.

I echo your apology if you feel one is merited through my assertive posturing.

I suppose I could have Googled that question but look at all of this nice information we have gathered in our chat here, and I got to meet you as well, so I am glad I posted.

You have a good day, too; I am back to work soon and dreaming of the spring already.
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FordGuy
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« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2005, 09:37:23 PM »

Quote from: Wandering Buddhist
There was a book popular recently, The Da Vinci Code.  In it, it is mentioned that females outnumber males in the beehive, at all times, by a ratio of 1.618 to 1.  

Many folk have asked me if this is true.  I have never counted so exactly all of the bees in a hive, let alone tried to segregate them, so I do not know.

Do any of you know whether or not that figure is accurate?


Now I know I don't have to read that book if it is full of jibberish like that!
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bassman1977
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« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2005, 10:22:41 AM »

Quote
Now I know I don't have to read that book if it is full of jibberish like that!


FordGuy, don't let a statement in the book like that deter you from reading it.  This is by far the best book I've read in a long time.  As was pointed out before, if you read it, and just keep in mind that what is in it, is in fact meant to be fiction, then you shouldn't be disappointed if you find out down the road that the person sitting next to Jesus in the painting "The Last Supper" isn't Mary Magdalen, but an old beekeeper that Jesus happened to meet the day before, and is coming by for dinner.
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