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Author Topic: Honey Kills Babies!  (Read 5211 times)
kingbee
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« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2012, 06:20:21 PM »

... Never dipped the pacifier in honey;  Dippeded it in whiskey when they were teething, it numbed the pain in their gums! This was ...on advice of their Dr., if you didn't have paragoric (sp)...

Back when men were men and the politicians were nervous, there was a patend medicine on the market named "Hadacol."  The joke was "They had to call it 'somthing' didn't they?

I use to have a bottle of it in my Americana collection, complete with the bottle's contents, the box, and the instructions that came folded in the box.  It was 80% 175 proof pure grain alcohol.  The other 20% was honey and some unnamed "spices."  The instructions said to give crying babies 4 TABLE SPOONS FULL of this concoction a day.  IMHO, if you administered Hadacol according to the instructions I expect that you would not be bothered by babies crying, but instead by the babies singing off key.
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bulldog
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« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2012, 12:02:27 AM »

why do babies have to eat honey in the first place ?  if you want to feed your baby honey go ahead, but if it dies you're gonna feel awful silly.
i don't know if it is safe or dangerous or something in between, but it seems to me that if there is the slightest risk why do it ? babies don't have a complete immune system like adults do so they are more susceptible to a number of problems that most adult immune systems can handle better. so i would tend to lean towards the better safe than sorry approach. i also grew up eating dirt and unwashed fruits and vegetables, stepping on rusty nails and chicken or goose poop, wrapping wounds with paper towels and electrical tape that should have gotten stitches or at the very least a good cleaning and all the other things that are bad for you today, but it was mostly done out of ignorance. i still don't clean my cuts properly, but i gave up eating dirt for the most part.
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Javin
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« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2012, 10:23:11 AM »

Perhaps for all the benefits I've already listed?  For centuries, honey was specifically FED to babies because of the benefits it gives them, including strengthening their immune systems.  Honey also helps them sleep.  A spoonful of honey just before naptime and they sleep like a log.  It's also a hell of a lot more natural (and healthier) than the sugar they get on their artificially puffed styrofoam and sugar cereals.

Again, spare me the "but if it dies" crap.  It has NEVER HAPPENED.  There's never been a single study to prove that it's even POSSIBLE.  Far more likely is that parents that stick their kid in a bubble are specifically CAUSING their child to have immune problems and allergies as they get older.

People will freak out about HONEY and throw out the "BUT IF IT DIES YOU BE SAD" garbage, but these are the same people that are quick to stuff some sodium benzoate laden crap into their kids' mouths.
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Scadsobees
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« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2012, 02:49:26 PM »

Keep a few things in mind....

A 1 to 3 month old baby isn't likely to be crawling in the dirt.
A 1 to 3 month old baby isn't likely to be eating any raw fruits or vegetables.
A 1 to 3 month old baby has very little digestive bacteria, since all it eats is easy to digest milk.
A 1 to 3 month old babies get fussy, and to stimulate the baby to take a pacifier, it is easy to dip it in some sticky sweet liquid so the baby will suck on it and shut up.

Babies not eating real food have very non-acidic digestive tracts.  This is what botulina bacteria likes.  If that bacteria gets in there somehow (probably from honey, since that is all they might eat other than milk), it will start to thrive in the gut.

Unlike canned vegetables, where its toxin will build up and kill quickly, in the gut of a defenseless baby it will grow and slowly release its toxin.  The baby will slowly start to have issues.  These issues are often hard to diagnose, causing the baby to waste away.  If diagnosed properly, it can be treated quite easily.

Once a baby is on real food, the flora of the gut starts to diversify, and the stomach becomes more acidic, and growing botulism in the gut is no longer an issue.  This generally happens much sooner than 9 months, but an abundance of caution has been instilled, because quite frankly, who wants to risk their baby over some honey?  Once a child has been on cooked real people food for a while, honey isn't an issue anymore.

If I'm not mistaken, corn syrup can have the same problems as honey.  But honey has been used much much longer, so has cause many more issues over the years.

So yes, it is true and yes, it has happened.  And yes, it has become blown out of proportion over the years.  Rather than lash out the opposite direction, why not try to educate people on how and why it happens?

Additional link: http://www.infantbotulism.org/general/faq.php
« Last Edit: July 18, 2012, 03:11:43 PM by Scadsobees » Logged

Rick
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« Reply #24 on: July 18, 2012, 04:00:39 PM »

I'm completely familiar with infant botulism.  Thanks.  But you still haven't addressed the fact that it has NEVER been tested or proven that honey can cause it.  Ever.  It's all fear mongering.  And if you think a 3 month old can't catch it from vacuuming, or being on the floor, you're purposely deluding yourself. 
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Scadsobees
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« Reply #25 on: July 18, 2012, 04:20:32 PM »

Um...there have been proven cases.  And many other unproven cases.  Honey, yes.  Vacuum...not proven.

http://www.infantbotulism.org/parent/prevention.php

Honey has been proven to have botulinum spores in it.  Not all, not always.  But it is a simple and easy preventative measure.  Just like I wouldn't have given my babies raw carrots to chew on. 

Babies don't NEED honey.  Why risk something so unnecessary?  You can't stop a baby from sucking on things that are dirty.  You can stop a baby from jumping up on the counter and ripping into the honey jar.

I also didn't let my 8 week old infants play in the dirt or eat dirt.  They did do that plenty later on (and still do  rolleyes ).

I really don't see what the big deal is...it isn't as if we're selling tons of honey to be consumed by infants. rolleyes  I've not lost any sales because of it, although I've explained it a few times.
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Rick
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« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2012, 04:50:24 PM »

I am reading this while the pressure cooker is going wide open behind me canning squash and hot dogs.   What if one cans honey.   It will kill out all the spores.   Yes the honey would be heated to 240, but botulism free.  Thoughts?  huh
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Javin
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« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2012, 05:03:43 PM »

Um...there have been proven cases.  And many other unproven cases.  Honey, yes.  Vacuum...not proven.

http://www.infantbotulism.org/parent/prevention.php

Honey has been proven to have botulinum spores in it.  Not all, not always.  But it is a simple and easy preventative measure.  Just like I wouldn't have given my babies raw carrots to chew on. 

Babies don't NEED honey.  Why risk something so unnecessary?  You can't stop a baby from sucking on things that are dirty.  You can stop a baby from jumping up on the counter and ripping into the honey jar.

I also didn't let my 8 week old infants play in the dirt or eat dirt.  They did do that plenty later on (and still do  rolleyes ).

I really don't see what the big deal is...it isn't as if we're selling tons of honey to be consumed by infants. rolleyes  I've not lost any sales because of it, although I've explained it a few times.



And this is where you need to understand the difference between correlation and causation.  Correlation does not prove causation.  This is a very basic tenet of science.  When you see the word "linked" then this means it was a observational (ie: correlation) study.   In other words, not... real... science...

They know that honey can have botulin spores in it.  They also know it's in dirt, dust, vacuum cleaners, etc.  ALL OF THIS CAME FROM THE SAME STUDY.  It's a balls-out LIE to say that "the only known preventative is not to feed them honey" just because you found some spores in the honey.  The spores are EVERYWHERE in nature.  How do you think they got in the honey in the first place? 

1.) Hundreds of children are diagnosed with infant botulism.  Even in the cases where the parents KNOW FOR A FACT their child consumed nothing related to honey, the doctors just assume they're liars, and that the kid got it from honey.

2.) NO test has EVER shown that the spores found in honey are viable.

3.) The spores are EVERYWHERE.  Not just in honey.

Again, your child is many times more likely to be exposed to VIABLE spores by your vacuum cleaner and the dirt around the house than to be exposed to POTENTIALLY NON-VIABLE SPORES in honey.  EVERYTHING YOU THINK YOU KNOW ABOUT HONEY CAUSING BOTULISM COMES FROM A SINGLE OBSERVATIONAL STUDY.  Period.

Believing that honey - a scientifically KNOWN antibacterial and antiviral - is the SOURCE of infant botulism is ignorant and asinine.  Until a REAL study is done that shows differently, I'll continue to allow MY kids to have the health benefits that people have enjoyed from raw honey for millenia. 
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Scadsobees
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« Reply #28 on: July 18, 2012, 06:43:48 PM »

Wow...well go ahead then.  Tell all your customers! Odds are you will never be responsible for a case of infant botulism, but it isn't big enough deal for me to risk.  Sales are as good as ever!

BTW, that is why honey is called the only known preventable measure since that's the only known source of botulism spores that can be controlled - don't feed it to babies.  We can't control/prevent the dust/dirt.  So it is a true statement.

My kids eat honey too.  They just didn't for the first few months, breastmilk was sufficient.  No loss there...  We don't get hung up on any magical health benefits, though.  Its another sweetener. 
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Rick
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« Reply #29 on: July 18, 2012, 07:55:46 PM »

"Another sweetener"?   My 5 year old can make a meal out of honey when we are not looking.   grin
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texjim
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« Reply #30 on: July 18, 2012, 08:50:05 PM »

My son is 17 months. We started giving him honey right after he turned one.
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kingbee
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« Reply #31 on: July 19, 2012, 03:08:01 AM »

I'll call this submission “We humans will gag on a gnat yet gulp down a camel.”
Better make that “Swallow a baby elephant.”  More on this later.

Diseases caused by honey?Huh  You got to be kidding… right?
Facing angry bees 40 metres high and unattached for honey - Human Planet: Jungles, preview - BBC One

It looks like the queen bee whose comb is shown in the above link lays a good brood pattern.  More on honey n health:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001390/
http://australianmuseum.net.au/How-do-we-know-how-they-died/

Hypervitaminosis A is a painful and sometimes fatal bone disease caused by too much vitamin A.  This condition is typically caused by consuming the livers of carnivores like tigers, polar bears and seals.  Hypervitaminosis A can also be caused by eating large amounts of bee brood, ingested while eating comb honey containing bee brood.  Fossil bones from human or near humans who died 1,700,000 years ago have been discovered with the unmistakable signs of Hypervitaminosis A.

Also:  “…Recent emphasis on vitamin A and beta carotene as anticancer vitamins may contribute to chronic hypervitaminosis A…”
It seems that your danged if you do, and that your danged if you don’t!!  So I  won't.

Botulism in infants:
http://diseases.emedtv.com/infant-botulism/infant-botulism-p3.html

I must agree that honey has never been proven as the source of the botulism that caused the death of a single human infant.  The above link only mentions that botulism spores were present in 10% of the California commercial honey samples tested.  We should remember that commercial honey is “Ultra Filtered“.  No mention or claim for unfiltered or raw honey was made nor is there any scientific data available for unfiltered or raw honey or its relationship to botulism spores.  The link also mentions that botulism spores are potentially present on the dust particles in every breath of air we take.  In that case I guess we parents are ‘sposed’ to help our children hold their breath for the first year of life?

Baby elephants eating dung - BBC wildlife

After viewing the above link I will leave the rest up to your active imaginations.  But remember that human infants when born into a perfectly natural world, come into this world at night, with their heads down and facing backwards in relation to their mothers bodies.  Lets hear it now for “Baby elephants and Al-Natural child birth!”

More icky factor: http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/12/fecal-transplants-work/
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bulldog
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« Reply #32 on: July 20, 2012, 02:16:07 AM »

so i take it you wouldn't be sad if your child died ?  rolleyes

Quote
It has NEVER HAPPENED


and you know this how ?

 i'd like to know if you're a doctor ?

 i'd also like to know why you are under the impression that if something hasn't been "proven" that it can't be possible. i imagine there was a time in history where it wasn't "proven" that bacteria caused infection or that viruses caused illness. some people in the dark ages thought the plague was caused by an angry god. were they right ?
 
and since you feel so strongly about it, then why stop with just feeding babies honey, why not feed them peanuts as well and let's give them measles and typhoid vaccinations and all that other nasty stuff right out of the womb and get it over with instead of waiting until they are older, enough of this mollycoddling.

botulism can kill a full grown otherwise healthy adult, so obviously it can also kill a baby which, by the way, has an incomplete digestive system which is incapable of processing the same things as adults can.

i never ate honey until i was a grown man and i never had a single allergy as a child, in fact as an adult i'm only allergic to a few medications, so it's not as if eating honey is the only way to prevent allergies.
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bulldog
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« Reply #33 on: July 20, 2012, 02:21:12 AM »

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POTENTIALLY NON-VIABLE SPORES

i wonder, couldn't they also be "potentially viable" ?
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Javin
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« Reply #34 on: July 20, 2012, 11:07:31 AM »

so i take it you wouldn't be sad if your child died ?  rolleyes

Quote
It has NEVER HAPPENED


and you know this how ?

 i'd like to know if you're a doctor ?

 i'd also like to know why you are under the impression that if something hasn't been "proven" that it can't be possible. i imagine there was a time in history where it wasn't "proven" that bacteria caused infection or that viruses caused illness. some people in the dark ages thought the plague was caused by an angry god. were they right ?
 
and since you feel so strongly about it, then why stop with just feeding babies honey, why not feed them peanuts as well and let's give them measles and typhoid vaccinations and all that other nasty stuff right out of the womb and get it over with instead of waiting until they are older, enough of this mollycoddling.

botulism can kill a full grown otherwise healthy adult, so obviously it can also kill a baby which, by the way, has an incomplete digestive system which is incapable of processing the same things as adults can.

i never ate honey until i was a grown man and i never had a single allergy as a child, in fact as an adult i'm only allergic to a few medications, so it's not as if eating honey is the only way to prevent allergies.

You do realize that jumping to an opposite extreme is every bit as stupid?  Of course you do... rolleyes

Very obviously, I'm saying that I prefer to base my fear mongering on, you know, facts.  Not asinine fears that have not only never been proven, but for centuries, we have documentation of people giving babies honey for the benefits without a single report of honey CAUSING botulism. 

Due to the KNOWN antibacterial nature of honey, the odds of any spores found in it still being viable are very slim.  But instead of testing to see if the most obvious theory is accurate, let's just keep spreading the fear of stupid stuff why don't we?

Am I a doctor?  Hell no, and I'm proud to say I'm not.  While in the military I was a 91T, and spent a good deal of my tour doing medical research at the Naval Medical Research Unit #3 (NAMRU-3) in Cairo, Egypt.  (It's a place we do stuff called "real science." - Not the BS that passes for science it today's medical field.)  Our specialty was bacterial and viral.  I actually helped develop the AIDS vaccination that is in human trials now.  So yeah, you can assume my opinion is "qualified." 

It's this exact kind of asinine sheep-following that has the bulk of the world afraid of saturated fats and cholesterol, even though science has proven time and again that there's no such thing as "bad" cholesterol.  Instead, we'll just keep on following whatever the "doctors" say when their theory is based on a guy in 1850 who also believed in the "four humors." 

Doctor's don't do research.  It's not their job.  Period.  Scientists do research.  Doctors regurgitate what they read from a book, and put it to use.  No, I'm not a doctor.  Even after leaving the military, I've continued doing medical research for the past 15 years. 

Now, you can quit with your straw-man arguments.  I never said it wasn't "possible." I have said many times it's highly improbable.  It's POSSIBLE that a meteor is going to strike Washington D.C. this afternoon.  This doesn't mean I'm going to move my family to California this morning. 

You can spare me your elementary descriptions of what botulism is.  I'm fully aware of its mortality rates, efficacy, and lifecycle.  I've worked with anthrax, and even the lesser virulent strains of ebola (Reston/Marburg).  You conveniently ignore the fact that EVERYONE is exposed to botulin spores EVERY DAY.  EVERYONE.  Even your baby.  And for all you know, the much more LIKELY scenario is that the spores in honey are dead, and therefor the honey COULD actually be HELPING your child build an immunity to the viable spores that your vacuum cleaner is exposing it to.  Or your carpet.  Or your dog.  Or any one of the millions of other sources.  But instead of making the sensible, logical decision, you're going to listen to some idiot with an unproven and nonsensical theory because he has a couple letters after his name.

But you just keep right on withholding the honey and feeling smug about it.

And while you're at it, keep on feeding your kid their puffed starch cereal coated in sugar, and the cans and boxes of preservatives.  The same people that jump on this high horse about 'well *I'D* never feed my baby honey because *I* don't want to feel bad when they die, so obviously *I'M* the superior parent" are the same bleep that don't have the first clue what all those chemicals are on the back of the boxes of crap they feed their kids.  (Here's a hint: almost every preservative is a free radical producing agent.  Do the research.)

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bulldog
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« Reply #35 on: July 20, 2012, 11:55:13 AM »

Quote
And while you're at it, keep on feeding your kid their puffed starch cereal coated in sugar, and the cans and boxes of preservatives

now you're comparing apples to oranges. how does this prove or disprove anything remotely related to your soapbox ramblings ?

i'm not telling you you can't feed your baby honey so i don't know what your so mad about. what i've read is that you shouldn't give honey to children under the age of 1. it's risk/reward. what are the rewards ? unproven propaganda, what are the risks ? also unproven. given that i'd be more inclined to choose the lesser of two evils. i don't need to be some high-falutin "scientist" to exercise a bit of common sense. for all of your posturing and lecturing you have failed to even once disprove the theory. a lack of evidence for something is not proof to the contrary.

Quote
You do realize that jumping to an opposite extreme is every bit as stupid?

i was going to ask you the same thing.
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Javin
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« Reply #36 on: July 20, 2012, 12:27:21 PM »

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And while you're at it, keep on feeding your kid their puffed starch cereal coated in sugar, and the cans and boxes of preservatives

now you're comparing apples to oranges. how does this prove or disprove anything remotely related to your soapbox ramblings ?

Everything.  My point being that you'll follow the knee jerk reaction based on no scientific information because a "doctor" told you so, but you won't bother doing your own research into the subject.  Case in point: The vast body of evidence showing that parents that feed their kids gads of sugar and preservatives are poisoning their children every day.  But these are the same look-down-their-nose bleep that say things like, "so i take it you wouldn't be sad if your child died?"

i'm not telling you you can't feed your baby honey so i don't know what your so mad about.

Your condescending comments, just like those of your ilk, are insinuating that you're making the "better" decision than those who choose to give their kids honey.  Because, hey, at least YOU care if your kid dies.  Those that give their kids honey obviously don't care at all, right?  And yet while being condescending, in every person I've run into, they're the same idiots that poison their kids with tons of other crap because, again, they don't do their research.  Since some guy with an "MD" after his name said that canned veggies are healthy if they say "healthy" on the label, then that's good enough for you. 

There's nothing quite as insulting as being condescended to by the uneducated.  And nobody's telling YOU that you HAVE to give your kid honey.  But you've mentioned several times now how YOU do it because YOU CARE if YOUR KID DIES.  And obviously WE DON'T.  That's what this boils down to.  And that's what sparked my frustration about this topic in the first place and has for years: If a parent chooses not to give their kids honey, fine, don't.  If you choose to be a vegetarian, knock yourself out.  But don't tell ME that I'm a lesser parent when I've actually DONE the research, and you haven't.  Don't get on MY Facebook page when I'm offering honey to my family and start wailing about how if they give my honey to my nieces and nephews that it will kill them, and basically saying I'm some idiot for even offering it to families with children.  If you're REALLY that stupid, and don't have any intention of rectifying the situation, then it's probably best if you stay off the interwebs.

what i've read is that you shouldn't give honey to children under the age of 1. it's risk/reward. what are the rewards ? unproven propaganda, what are the risks ? also unproven.

By this very notion, this is how we get things like a screwed up dietary pyramid, antibiotics that are put in everything causing weaker immune systems and stronger bacteria, antibacterial hand gel that we continue to use despite clinical studies showing it INCREASES bacterial growth, etc.  The benefits of honey are unproven?  REALLY?  Here's a little list from the Mayo Clinic for you:

* Early evidence suggests that honey may reduce burn-healing time. Additional study is needed to make a firm recommendation.

* Early evidence suggests that honey may help lower blood sugar levels in diabetic patients. Additional study is warranted in this area.

* Preliminary study found honey effective in treating labial but not genital herpes. More research is needed in this area to draw a firm conclusion.

* Currently, there is preliminary evidence that suggests benefit in the use of honey in the treatment of high blood pressure. Additional study is needed to make a firm recommendation.

* Currently there is limited study showing a small benefit in the use of honey in the treatment of gingival plaque and gingivitis. Further study is needed.

* The primary studied use of honey is for wound management... Although honey has apparent antibacterial effects, more human study is needed in this area.

And that's from one page of a 2 second search.  Other things we know (from science) about honey:  It has a chemical called Quercetin that is an antihistamine.  (It's found in much higher doses in the pollen.)  The natural sugars are far easier for your body (eg: a BABY'S body) to metabolize than processed sugars or grains. 

Then there's the fact that there's a BETTER chance that spores consumed in honey would help BUILD the immune system instead of cause a reaction.

given that i'd be more inclined to choose the lesser of two evils. i don't need to be some high-falutin "scientist" to exercise a bit of common sense. for all of your posturing and lecturing you have failed to even once disprove the theory. a lack of evidence for something is not proof to the contrary.

So if I tell you, "all candy has been proven to cause childhood diabetes" even though this is blatantly false - it's never been proven - it's also never been DISPROVEN.  So are you now, as of this instant, going to quit giving your child any sort of candy?  I mean, what's the reward there?  The risk is every bit as real and significant.  And you can quit with the "high-falutin scientist" crap.  You were the one that demanded that I qualify my opinion.  That's what I did.  So now why don't you just go right ahead and exercise some of that there "common sense" you've got and make sure your kid never eats any more candy. 

It's almost comical that you think the rule should be that every theory should be believed until proven false.  Here's a few theories for you that you should also stick with:  Drinking distilled water causes cancer.  Exercise causes heart attacks.  Swimming pools cause lung cancer. 

I could go on forever.  Yes, all of these are actual theories, and yes, they ACTUALLY have more fact and research behind them than the one you've chosen to blindly follow with your "common sense." 

Quote
You do realize that jumping to an opposite extreme is every bit as stupid?

i was going to ask you the same thing.

Really?  Is this the part where I'm supposed to say "I know you are but what am I?"
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BjornBee
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« Reply #37 on: July 20, 2012, 01:07:04 PM »

 pop

 lau

Just on tone of the thread, and sometimes needing to choose sides based on how it is said, and not what is said, I agree with bulldog. I think someone has forgotten to take their blue pill today.  grin
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Javin
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« Reply #38 on: July 20, 2012, 01:13:56 PM »

Yeah, my boss says I need to work on my "fluff factor."   Undecided
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« Reply #39 on: July 20, 2012, 01:19:05 PM »

Quote
but you won't bother doing your own research into the subject
am i supposed to use children as guinea pigs now ?

Quote
Your condescending comments, just like those of your ilk, are insinuating that you're making the "better" decision than those who choose to give their kids honey
and that isn't condescending ?

no, i'm just not going to take your word as gospel when your best argument includes the words possibly, probably, and most likely, or in other words you don't know for sure either.

Quote
But don't tell ME that I'm a lesser parent when I've actually DONE the research, and you haven't

again, i'm not going to take your word for anything, i don't know you from adam. you could be a lunatic for all i know.


Quote
Don't get on MY Facebook page when I'm offering honey to my family

you obviously think way too much of yourself.

i think i understand the situation perfectly now. you're not mad that kids all over the world aren't gulping honey by the gallon on a daily basis, your mad because your fragile little ego is bruised that everyone isn't listening to your advice as the end all be all.
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