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Author Topic: Laying workers  (Read 1845 times)
CVBees
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« on: June 22, 2012, 10:16:57 PM »

I let a couple hives go too long without checking and I have a ying and yang situation.  One is fantastic great patterns, a full deep of honey on top of a deep of brood and drawing out honey supers.  The one next to it is now week and has laying workers.  I read about doing a shake down 100 yard from the hive leaving the young laying workers who most likely have never left the hive lost.  Intro a new queen ( my current problem ) and let nature take its course.

Will if given a frame of eggs make another? with half the bees in the hive now being drone?  Or where can I get a queen this time of year?  THanks for your input folks.

Pretty good year season so far though!!   afro
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kathyp
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« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2012, 11:03:17 PM »

try a search.  there have been two posts about laying workers this week and most of what you want to know has probably been covered.  if not, ask away.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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Grandpa Jim
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« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2012, 11:40:14 PM »

Check on the PSBA web site for local associations.  I believe you would be in the York County or Capitol area associations.  Contact them and find out who is in your area.   I have queens but am in the the Lancaster County area and would be more than an hours drive for you.  Check with those associations I am sure there is someone with queens much closer.  Bjorn apiaries is probably less than an hour from you, maybe check with him for queens.

I think I would do a complete shake out, removing the hive.  Than in a few days, start a new split with frames from your strong hive.  It can take some time to turn around a laying worker hive and in that time the new split could be off and running. 
Jim
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Finski
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« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2012, 02:15:03 AM »

Quote from: Grandpa Jim link=topic=38087.msg319488#msg319488 date=1340422814

I think I would do a complete shake out, removing the hive. 
[/quote

That is the ancient trick which has nothing to do with practical facts.

I cannot undesrtand why new knowledge cannot substitute those old beleives.


Working layers comes from desperate situation
When you give a larva frame from hive, bees start to rera emergency cells.
They calm doan and worker laying stops.
Then when queen larvae has been capped, give a new queen. It takes 5 days to wait.


I shaked my first and laste hive 47 years ago. Stupid job.


If you wanta to learn more read about worker policing
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Grandpa Jim
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« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2012, 09:22:51 PM »

I offered queens as a solution.  CV does not say just how long they have been queenless.  I have turned some around just by adding a queen, when caught early.  But the longer it goes, the longer it seems to take to turn them back around.

I stand by what I said....Shake them out and let them join the other hive....I have wasted time giving frames of eggs to a laying worker hive until they decide to make a queen.  Sometimes on the second frame sometimes on the third frame, it can work...but, sorry, for me that is wasted time...a commodity I choose not to waste when possible.   

There is no loss in shaking them out and letting them move into the other hive.  Then making a fresh split from that hive.   A split will begin raising a new queen right away without any problem.  Just saved 2 or 3 trips to that yard and I still have 2 hives.  Ancient trick...Stupid job...whatever.. it will work.

Jim

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Finski
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« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2012, 02:39:15 AM »

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Don't give up Jim! What ever happens around you.

Bees accept a new queen without shaking but never mind. Shaking is cool.

By the way. Normal queen setting is a risk to the queen. But it is easier to give a queen to the workers layer than in normal hive.

I have given with normal procedure queens to workers layers, and no problems more than usual.

Listen:  the whole theory about shaking is wrong. It was thought that there a worker queen in the hive which kills the real queen.
Now we know that there tens or hundreds of workers which have swollen owaries and they lay.


No one has shown that workers bees fight to each other. Why they would kill normal queen. They are hundreds, even 24% of bees.
In Apis cerana spicie workers go to lay into nectdoor hives combs.

This is new knowledge and don't even try to learn it- It is too difficult.
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asprince
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« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2012, 09:45:44 AM »

If you put a frame with a queen cell in a laying worker hive will they accept the queen when it hatches or will they tear it down?


Steve
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Finski
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« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2012, 12:54:21 PM »

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Who knows. There are difficulties in setuping queens.

When for example mating nucs gets 2 cycle of youn queens, later introduging often become more difficult.

I have not met more difficulties in queen  introduction than normal.
When I have taken queen off from mating nuc, worker layers have been developed quite often.
But I have  not noticed difficulties to give new queen cell, virgin or what ever to the nuc.

But like I said, the whole theory of shaking bees to eliminate a worker queen is rubbish.

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kathyp
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« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2012, 01:04:25 PM »

Finski, i don't shake to get rid of laying workers.  i do it so that i don't have to rob other hives of brood over an extended period of time.  if you have lots of hives from which to take brood, this might not be an issue.  if you only have a couple of hives, you risk weakening your other hives.

when i shake a hive, and thankfully i have not had to do many, i put that hive away and let the bees that i shook out join other hives.  i can always split later if it's not to late in the year. 

i agree that the idea of shaking out hives and "losing" the laying workers is wrong.  they will fly right back with the others. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
danno
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« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2012, 08:08:28 AM »

I found 3 queenless colonies alittle over a week ago but didn't make it back to fix the problem until yesterday.  One of the 3 started laying drones.    I keep a yard of small swarms in nuc's at my farm just for this kinda thing.  I loaded 3 in my truck and headed for the yard early.  First 2 just needed a queen so I simply crowd the existing bee's to one side of the box and place the queenright frames on the opposite side.  This works for me 99% of the time.   The laying worker colony I move off its pallet about 10 ft away and place the queenright nuc in a 10 frames box on the pallet where the layer was.  Before I even get the lids on field bee's from the laying worker head back to the original spot and I end up with a strong queenright colony.  The laying worker colony will dwindle.  In about a week I will go back check the 3 and remove the laying worker colony.  These frames will be shaken in another location.
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sawdstmakr
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« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2012, 11:48:16 AM »

KathyP
> agree that the idea of shaking out hives and "losing" the laying workers is wrong.  they will fly right back with the others.  <

My very first nuc had a Q with defective wings. Took 3 weeks and the seller to figure it out. By this time I also had laying workers, double eggs on the side of the cells. He had brought a new Q and we put her in the hive in a cage. Th next day I called our inspector and she told me to empty the hive out at least 200 ft from the hive making sure there were none left. I shook them out about 300' away. She said the laying workers don't fly and will not make it back from that far. I put the Q in the cage back in the hive. 2 weeks later she was still alive but the beetles had taken over the hive. The seller replaced the nuc with a 2 box hive and I gave the replacement Q back to him.
Jim
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CVBees
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« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2012, 09:13:33 PM »

Just to curb the curious mind.  Thank you to all that responded.  Finski, Grandpa Jim, KathyP.  and the rest.  I took all notes into consideration and shook em down to combine to the other hive.  I only have 3 (KathyP  *wink*) but did not want to battle trying to keep this one going.  I am confident in my other two and have large plans for next season with my new found confidence in my abilities and "beek senses"    I just sort of made that up.  You know that feeling that you have done the right thing bases on your experience and or luck.     There was some serious clustering on the stronger hive after I did the shake down.   All seems well thanks again.

CV

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Finski
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« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2012, 02:16:44 AM »

.

Keep on shaking!!!!

I have made one worker layer shaking 45 years ago. I have had tens on workers layer hives aor nucs and I just put a new queen to the hive. Often I use old replaced queen to see how old fart bees accept the queen.

Often old bees do not accept easily a new queen and that is maybe ther reason to "worker queen story".

But funny thing however.
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sc-bee
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« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2012, 04:12:58 AM »

 Deleted----Posted on wrong  :shock:thread
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SkepWrangler
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« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2012, 10:06:49 PM »

Please critique this thought about solving a laying worker situation.
By way of background, please note that the bees I have here are extremely resistant to the introduction of a new queen.
Question:
What do you think would happen if I were to take the hive with the laying worker and--during a warm night--shake off all the bees, including brushing the frames clean in front of several strong hives. I would take away the boxes and frames with the laying worker and, after a few days, give the frames to strong hives.
My idea is that the shaken bees would find a way to get adopted into other hives and into whichever hive the laying worker(s) went, they would be rejected.  The purpose would be to save these bees.
The frames of comb would likewise be recycled as they get introduced in other hives.
Looking forward to your thoughts.
SkepWrangler
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