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Author Topic: Mistake-Turning Frames Upside-Down  (Read 1279 times)
rail
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« on: June 17, 2012, 07:17:59 PM »

One of my foudationless hives decided to cross seven frames. So I decided to:

1: Install another deep (above) with foundation and feed; they stored and she laid in five frames in the upper deep.

2: Reverse the deeps, separate with a shallow and turn the frames upside-down.

3: All of this equals a royal mess, except the bottom deep (with foundation)!

I am thinking about putting the deep with foundation back on top of the messy deep and shallow and let them move up in the winter. Is this a good plan?

Iddee, I should have listened to you! rolleyes Going ahead and give me a hard time, I deserve it!!!!
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Sirach
kathyp
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« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2012, 07:29:57 PM »

in short, i'd say no.  not a good plan.  all that messing with them is going to set them back hard.

1. fine.  if you want to try to get them to draw a new deep, you can try that.  i don't know how long your season is, but if you feed...

2.  stop doing that!!  and why would you turn the frames upside down?

3.  if you are going to go foundationless, which i think is a fine idea, you need to stay on top of things until they get a few frames going well.  when you have 7 wonky frames, the solution is to cut the comb out and rubber band it back into the frames as you would a cut out.  the bees will repair it and they don't lose all that work they have already done.

two most frequent mistakes with foundationless 1. frames not pushed together.  2. beekeeper fails to catch mistakes early.

for new beekeepers i usually tell them to put a sheet of foundation in the first box to get things started right.  even that will not work if you don't pay attention to your frames spacing.
and it's not always the beekeepers mistake if the bees go off course.  some just do that.  it is the beekeepers mistake if he doesn't catch it and correct it.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
iddee
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« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2012, 07:51:35 PM »

""Iddee, I should have listened to you!  rolleyes Going ahead and give me a hard time, I deserve it!!!!""

Sounds to me like you are doing a fine job of that yourself.   lau

My advice.................................................BUY FOUNDATION.
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« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2012, 08:43:55 PM »

Foundationless is just not worth the hassle in my opinion either.   Your best bet at this point is to do as Kathy says, cut out the mess and rubber band any combs with brood into your frames.  Then listen to iddee and BUY foundation to fill up the rest of the space.  I would crush and stain any comb that isn't brood and at least get something out of this mess.
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Jim 134
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« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2012, 09:01:06 PM »

Look at at Reply#5

http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,5093.msg302282.html#msg302282



   BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2012, 09:21:12 PM »

It's ok to use some foundation when you first start out.  But once you have some drawn comb, you can drop a foundationless frame between two drawn combs and it will do fine.  Somehow it got screwed up in your case... maybe because you just threw a bunch of foundationless frames in a box and walked away.  Don't blame the concept of foundationless just because you messed it up.
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kathyp
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« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2012, 09:44:03 PM »

i dump swarms on empty frames all the time.  i prefer to use drawn comb, but sometimes i have run out.  as long as you keep an eye on them the first week or two and make sure they don't get off course, it works well.  i think i have had as much, if not more, trouble with foundation than without.

it's a preference thing...and i'm cheap.  evil
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
rail
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« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2012, 09:50:42 PM »

Out of 5 hives I have 4 foundationless hives and one of them is 4 deeps.

This hive that I am trying to correct got ahead of me! I really do not want to do a cut-out. Another beek conveyed to me about turning frames upside-down.

I was just curious about putting the cross comb deep back on the bottom board and putting the foundation deep on top and let them move up in the winter?
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Sirach
FRAMEshift
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« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2012, 09:59:57 PM »

Bad comb leads to more bad comb.  The bees will just end up investing more time and energy in the messed up box.  Kathy is right about cutting it out, as painful as that may be.
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"You never can tell with bees."  --  Winnie-the-Pooh
kathyp
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« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2012, 11:20:40 PM »

and it seems to me that it is a lot less work to cut those out and correct them than all that box swapping, etc.  a few rubberbands and a sharp knife.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
sterling
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« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2012, 12:01:17 PM »

I have a swarm that crossed comb about half a deep box in a swarmtrap before I brought them home. My plan is to let them build up in a second deep box put the queen in second box put an excluder over bottom box until brood is out then do a cutout with crosscomb, rubberband comb in deep frames and put bottom box on top. It will probably take a while but seems like the simpliest way to fix the problem.
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lonewolf308
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« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2012, 01:54:56 PM »

I agree with FRAMEshift. This is my first year bee keeping and I did 50/50 foundation/foundationless. I haven't had any problems they're building all the frames like champs. I'm on my 2nd medium and plan to start switching out the drawn foundation until I can have all naturally built frames. Sounds like you just put a box full of empty frames and hoped for the best. Try giving them the something to go by and I bet they will surprise you. I honestly don't see why everyone doesn't go foundationless, they were ingrained with the knowledge let them use it.
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2Sox
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« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2012, 07:11:57 PM »

I space three frames with foundation - the rest foundationless - inside a ten frame medium whenever I set up a new box.  Never a problem.  Learned that the hard way.....just like you are now. Smiley
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"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism
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