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Author Topic: Question on Hive Strength  (Read 2383 times)
jataylor
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« on: June 15, 2012, 01:12:29 PM »

Have a single hive and the population does not seem to be growing as fast as I would expect.  Queen has good brood pattern, but can't get it beyond two 8 frame mediums after 8 weeks.  Outside frames are not drawn in either medium.  Honey and pollen stores seem adequate.  Nights have been in the high 50s and low 60s.  Daytime temps running in the high 70s and low 80s.  Are low temps a factor?  Normal???  NewBee seeking knowledge.
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iddee
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« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2012, 05:47:48 PM »

Move the outer drawn frames out, especially the frames with the most pollen, and the undrawn in and see what happens.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Joe D
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« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2012, 08:28:25 PM »


Iddee's answer should fix your empty frames.  When you change the frames around keep an eye on them because their are already 75% full.  Good luck with your bees.



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wayne
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« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2012, 10:42:44 PM »

hows the weather?
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Finski
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« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2012, 01:00:37 AM »


Impossible to say what it should be. From where you started ? And how cold hive has been when you have given space.

Queens are not alike. Some are able to lay 2 boxes full and some only 6-8 frames. Excluder is a bad barrier of build up if you use it.

If you have another hive, then you can compare. Mission Impossible to say, what is your hive and what are your skills. "Best beekeepers" may loose 2 swarm in 8 weeks when they feed so much tiny hives.

 
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rdy-b
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« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2012, 01:46:38 AM »

Have a single hive and the population does not seem to be growing as fast as I would expect.  Queen has good brood pattern, but can't get it beyond two 8 frame mediums after 8 weeks.  Outside frames are not drawn in either medium.  Honey and pollen stores seem adequate.  Nights have been in the high 50s and low 60s.  Daytime temps running in the high 70s and low 80s.  Are low temps a factor?  Normal???  NewBee seeking knowledge.

 sounds on track to me -I am assuming that you are drawing out the foundation during this growth process
there are ways to push the colony -try some thin syrup--RDY-B
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Finski
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« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2012, 10:33:56 AM »


there are ways to push the colony -try some thin syrup--RDY-B

GOOOOOD heavens!!!. You can only spoil the colony with feeding.

BYE A NEW QUEEN!!!!

The cost of queen is equal 3 kg honey.


If nosema has spoiled the queen, its  laying becomes perhaps to zero.
Then some one advices that rear your own free virgin and take a daughter from a sick queen.




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rdy-b
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« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2012, 01:16:14 PM »


there are ways to push the colony -try some thin syrup--RDY-B

GOOOOOD heavens!!!. You can only spoil the colony with feeding.

BYE A NEW QUEEN!!!!

The cost of queen is equal 3 kg honey.


If nosema has spoiled the queen, its  laying becomes perhaps to zero.
Then some one advices that rear your own free virgin and take a daughter from a sick queen.




.

 GOOD HEAVENS HE STARTED FROM ZERO AND IS ONLY 8 WEEKS INTO IT-NOTHING IS SPOILED --THERES ONLY BEEN
TWO FULL ROUNDS OF BROOD PRODUCED-NOT EVEN ENOUGH TIME TO NOTICE A DECLINE- cool  If he is drawing out his foundation at this time a litel push wont hurt a thing--- Wink  RDY-B
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Finski
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« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2012, 02:14:47 PM »


 GOOD HEAVENS HE STARTED FROM ZERO

AND IS ONLY 8 WEEKS INTO IT-NOTHING IS SPOILED --THERES ONLY BEEN
TWO FULL ROUNDS OF BROOD PRODUCED-NOT EVEN ENOUGH TIME TO NOTICE A DECLINE- cool  If he is drawing out his foundation at this time a litel push wont hurt a thing--- Wink  RDY-B

No one start from zero.

You, as experienced beekeeper should know that biggest problem with small colonies is that they fill frames with honey and nectar and the brood area will reduced. AND YOU SAY FEED FEED FEED FEED IN THE MIDDLE OF SUMMER.

Why don't you say that just wait that brood cycles add the size of the clony.

SAY IT!

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rdy-b
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« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2012, 02:59:53 PM »


**You, as experienced beekeeper should know that biggest problem with small colonies is that they fill frames with honey and nectar and the brood area will reduced. AND YOU SAY FEED FEED FEED FEED IN THE MIDDLE OF SUMMER.**

 yes that can be a problem if you are feeding a heavy syrup--thin syrup is more of a stimulant and will make them
 draw wax-compared to plugin out the cell that the queen needs to lay in--getting your frames drawn out is key to
 meeting the enviormental time frame for any given location of beekeeping-we are all on diferant time frames but we must all meet  milestones in order to advance to the next leval-- angel



**Why don't you say that just wait that brood cycles add the size of the clony.

SAY IT!**
 
  IT  Kiss
there are times when you can keep bees or have them as pets--we as beekeepers have the ability to decide and preform manipulation to our colonies that will bring the best results for our circumstance--the original poster is exploring different ideas as to colony strength for his bees-I can provide him with techniques to speed them up or even slow them down -I am master in my bee yard- I decide --not the bees--but you already know that-- cheesy  cool RDY-B
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Finski
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« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2012, 04:13:04 PM »


 draw wax-compared to plugin out the cell that the queen needs to lay in--getting your frames drawn out is key to

I have not noticed that comb building is the key to build up???

What I have noticed is
- a  size of the start
- the heat economy of the hive: insulation and reduced ventilation
- a limiting factor is when the colony gets more members. A queen lays the frames full in a week
and it is difficult to get more brood. If you think to add combs, bees cannot keep them warm.

Brood cycle is 3 weeks and to feed couple of days has no meaning.

When I started beekeeping, I bought lots of swarms. I noticed that 2 langsroth boxes of bees is optimal size. It is 8 lbs swarm bees.
 I feeded the swarms that they may draw the combs in a week.
Then they got from nature the food. 8 lbs bees brought 80 lbs honey to be extracted.  Further more the colonies drew 3 boxes foundations . The year was something 1966 and 67.

4 lbs colony could not get surplus. Honey and brood were in same frames. It was a prison of small space.

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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2012, 05:00:50 PM »

Have a single hive and the population does not seem to be growing as fast as I would expect.  Queen has good brood pattern, but can't get it beyond two 8 frame mediums after 8 weeks. 
If you started from a package 8 weeks ago, it sounds like you are doing fine.  In the beginning a package's brood production comes in spurts.  The queen lays a first round of brood.... as many larvae as the nurse population will permit.  Then nothing happens for 3 weeks until a new crop of bees emerges to become nurse bees for the next generation.  Then there is another round of laying. In the meantime, the original foragers are dying of old age.... so the total population of a package hive decreases for the first month at least.  If your queen has a good pattern, you have nothing to worry about.
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Finski
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« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2012, 05:13:08 PM »

.
So it goes like Frameshift says it. What you can do is wait.

When I start to feed bees after winter, it takes 7 weeks that the colony has same strenght as in the beginning. All wintered bees have died and and after that the colony start to "build up".

When I nursed swarms long time ago, It took about 4 weeks that new bees start to emerge. Before that the bee number was half from the start. So it is 4 weeks gap when no new bees emerged (compared to nuc).

3 weeks cycle is theory = first egg and first emerged bee. Not much. And the queen does not start laying in first day even if it has ready combs.
4 weeks = one week laying has been emerged. Maybe 2 frames.

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rdy-b
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« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2012, 05:43:00 PM »


**I have not noticed that comb building is the key to build up???**

 IT is if you start with fpundation only--no brainer- huh

** I feeded the swarms that they may draw the combs in a week.**
how about that-and what if there was no flow would you stop- tongue

**Then nothing happens for 3 weeks until a new crop of bees emerges to become nurse bees for the next generation.  Then there is another round of laying. In the meantime, the original foragers are dying of old age.... so the total population of a package hive decreases for **

you say nothing hapens - Smiley heres what happens the queen never stops laying--she lays as fast as they draw open cells
the population draws wax so there is room for her to lay-the population prepares a area suroumded by a arch of food stores for the nures bees to tend the larvea-there is much going on in the first three weeks
 cheesy there is no debate as to the progres the colony is made -but there seams to be a reluctance to accepting the fact that it is posible to ramp up the natural proces and create a population explosion-- finski have you changed your Hat
and now let the bees keep you- Wink you post many posts of ways you push your bees for a spring build up-then you hand out advice as to the tune that requeening cures all- cheesy back to the drawing board--RDY-B
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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2012, 07:09:40 PM »


**Then nothing happens for 3 weeks until a new crop of bees emerges to become nurse bees for the next generation.  Then there is another round of laying. In the meantime, the original foragers are dying of old age.... so the total population of a package hive decreases for **

you say nothing hapens - Smiley heres what happens the queen never stops laying--she lays as fast as they draw open cells

Sure, they draw comb after the first round of laying.  And the queen will continue laying where she can.  But those eggs will be eaten because there will be no nurse bees to care for them.  Surplus and worker-laid eggs are eaten in the hive constantly.  For a three week period (ok it's longer as Finski says) there are no new nurse bees and so there is a limit to brood production.  I've idealized it by assuming the package is installed on drawn comb, so the first round of laying is a fast event.  If you start without drawn comb, then the whole process gets smeared out in time as the queen waits for space to lay.
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rdy-b
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« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2012, 09:39:25 PM »

** If you start without drawn comb, then the whole process gets smeared out in time as the queen waits for space to lay*
 
 thats the point of ramping up the comb building proces-when you start with foundation-and adding a third medium will
 be equal to a double deep box-but he will need to get it drawn--my whole premise is for starting with foundation--
 so you say they ate all the eggs-Just kiding  lau  th_thumbsupup  RDY-B
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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2012, 10:19:16 PM »

thats the point of ramping up the comb building proces-when you start with foundation-

Yes, when I start without enough drawn comb, I always feed new packages, even in a flow.  As far as I know, it's the house bees that are collecting the syrup from a top feeder, which is what I use.   If they can collect the necessary sugar, it frees up the foragers to collect more pollen.  Now THAT stimulates brood production.  grin
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Finski
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« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2012, 12:18:10 AM »

.
Actually, when you start in summer condition a new hive, you put a swarm or package into a hive, you need not to be very smart and the bees do the rest.

When a swarm escape and make its own hive into a cavity, they do it and they need not help in that job.

TRUTH IS that a beekeeper does not need not to know anything.
  BUt what happens then when a new beekeper asks in internet what to do. Then he will be in trouble and hive too.

I undestand that when you get a package so early in spring that nature has no food or weathers are bad.

SECOND TRUTH IS that I have spoken in this forum several years that don't feed your colonies like pigs. It helps nothing.

And avoid foundations... not wise at all...

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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2012, 12:48:02 AM »


When a swarm escape and make its own hive into a cavity, they do it and they need not help in that job.

The great majority of those swarms do not survive the following winter.  The Hive and the Honeybee notes a study showing that in upstate New York, only 5% of swarms survive the winter.

I don't feed for very long.  Maybe two weeks at most.  But it's at that critical time when they need to draw comb.  Wax is synthesized de novo from sugar.  So it's not about the nutritional value of the syrup ( I agree that nectar would be better for that).  It's just about making wax fast so the queen can lay.

But better than feeding is just using drawn comb.  No delay at all.
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rdy-b
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« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2012, 01:17:47 AM »

**But better than feeding is just using drawn comb.  No delay at all.**

 your on the right track-but if there is no drawn comb  huh--this isn't feeding its getting your bees to secrete wax by stimulating them with thin syrup--back to the debate about feeding-- tongue

 increase the rate which comb is drawn is one part of it -there are also ways to increase the rate which brood itself is reared-anyone know anything about that Huh perhaps if there was a internet connection when finman started keeping bees
he would have both hands on the steering wheel-   right now i think he is in the middle of the road cool --RDY-B
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