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Author Topic: The case against epi-pen  (Read 3541 times)
kathyp
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« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2012, 09:45:02 AM »

it's a sad day when we are forced to worry about liability before life.  i have them.  i'd use them.  guess i'd throw myself on the mercy of the jury and hope for the best....of course there are always those civil suits....
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
yockey5
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« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2012, 10:30:58 AM »

....if obama was to visit my apiary, I may kick a few hives over, but would never risk hurting him with an epi-pen! Just sayin.
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JackM
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« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2012, 12:56:52 PM »

Gotta watch statements like that the SS may come knocking on your door:)
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« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2012, 01:54:24 AM »

If someone starts having a bad reaction I will bring them to the hospital, if they cant breath I will offer the epen if I have one.  Are they going to sue me for trying to save their life?  Good God, give me a break with the your not a doctor but I should offer them one.

Ill use good old common country boy give a crap judgement calls and screw the liability baloney sandwiches.

That said, I dont have many visitors to my yard and I dont just let any bone head come along.  Country boys n girls are welcome.  I have had a few requests for lessons and if the day comes that I actually have a few folks out to my main yard for some beekeeping 101 they will be signing wavers before they get within a hundred yards of the bee yard.  They will sign away the right to sue Me for anything that happens that day or any day in the future on or off my property for anything period or they can leave the same way they came.  I dont have time for madness.
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winginit
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« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2012, 09:01:27 PM »

Great thread, Phill. I have never even considered having an Epi-Pen around. $100 is ridiculous and the odds of getting it renewed are low. But I'm thinking about it more after reading everyone's comments. And children's Benadryl I can do. Might even have to get the Vagisil after the nasty sting I took today.  grin
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AndrewT
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« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2012, 09:50:11 AM »

This thread reminds me of a job I had years ago, doing pesticide toxicology work in Northern Texas and Northeastern New Mexico.  Since we spent a lot of time walking through range land and scrubby field edges, we were all supplied with a complete snake bite kit from our lab office, but then told unofficially by the field supervisor never to use it if someone was bitten. 

I never drive or ride in a car without a seat belt, and I keep fire extinguishers in my house and garage, but my preparation for bee stings extends no further than a veil, a suit, and gloves (and maybe whiskey).

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OzBuzz
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« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2012, 07:42:14 PM »

Wow, we've come down to being worried about being sued trying to save someones life? As has been mentioned on numerous occassions on this thread as a beekeeper we have a responsibility to ensure that we protect those who don't make the choice to be stung i.e. we're the idiots who choose to open a hive of stinging little critters! what about the little kid or adult that doesn't make that choice and gets stung inadvertently? as they're dying do we look at them and say "I'm so sorry my bees stung you - you should have had an epipen"... grow up and take some responsibility! if something you're doing poses a risk to someone else then take measures to protect them! if you don't know how/when to use an epipen then learn! a first aid course and an epipen are a small price to pay! i don't think you'd get many people complaining/taking legal action for saving their life! it takes less than 3mins for someone to die from asphyxiation due to an anaphylactic reaction! living '5mins' from the hospital is no justification - if that makes you sleep better at night and feel that you've done all that you can to save that persons life, knowing the risks, then please put a sign at the entrance telling people that in the event they're stung and have an allergic reaction the best you 'might' do is hand them a phone to call emergency services
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jataylor
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« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2012, 07:55:58 AM »

Talking with my primary care physician, it is just good common sense to be prepared.   This like so many other issues is personal preference.
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deknow
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« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2012, 08:11:09 AM »

I certainly do understand that most who claim they are "deadly allergic" to bees are not...but that doesn't mean that some people aren't.  It is ignorant and irresponsible for beekeepers to delude themselves to think that it doesn't happen (I heard one local bee instructor say that all severe reactions were from wasps and hornets, not honeybees).

I knew Peter Sitzman through much of my childhood...went to his bday parties, sang in the jr high chorus with him (I'll never forget his booming solo part on "John Henry"), etc.

Peter died of allergic reaction to honeybee stings....it does happen, and to pretend that it doesn't is foolish, ignorant, and irresponsible.  This isn't to say that you need to carry an epipen, or that you should use it on someone for whom it isn't prescribed (an epipen should be used only if you are also calling an ambulance...it is not a cure for anything...it just buys you some time).

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F02E0DF133AF937A15754C0A9619C8B63
SITZMAN--Peter Jared , 38 of Sparta, New Jersey and previously of Lexington, Massachusetts died suddenly July 19, 2007 of a massive allergic reaction triggered by bee stings. He leaves his loving parents, Gloria and Dr. Steven Sitzman; brother Michael R. Sitzman; aunts and uncles: Dr. Matthew Gromet and Phyllis Schultz of Charlotte, North Carolina; Rosalind and Dr. Martin Stark of Reston, Virginia; and Leslie Sussman of Atlanta, Georgia. Pete was a favorite among his cousins: Melanie and Steven Glick and son Noah; Dan Gromet; Andrew Stark and Rebecca Gordon; AJ and Heather Sussman and son Andrew; and Nancy Effros and son Johnnie. Peter graduated from Williston North Hampton in 1987 and received his BA from the University of Rochester in 1991. He earned his MFA from Virginia Commonwealth University, Richmond, Virginia. Pete was a freelance high-end photo retoucher for the pharmaceutical industry. His ready smile, infectious laugh, and warm, loving manner will be sorely missed. Graveside ceremony and burial was held Sunday July 22nd at Mount Ararat Cemetery, East Farmingdale, New York. A memorial service will be held at Temple Isaiah, Lexington, Massachusetts at 1pm Tuesday July 24th. In lieu of flowers please make a donation in Peter's honor to an animal shelter of your choice.
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JackM
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« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2012, 08:27:55 AM »

If someone starts having a bad reaction you call 911 first.  Whether you have a pen or not.....Unless you are out in the boonies far away from EMS.

Good Post Deknow....actually this whole thread has been good.  But you are not liable to have an epi-pen for others.  You actually could get in a lot of trouble.... So. 

Call the ambulance, they have what they need and probably can get to you before you can get to the hospital safely.
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deknow
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« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2012, 08:31:37 AM »

Jack, if that were the case, no one would need an epipen.  They are never a cure or a treatment...they are a time buying tactic.  They are always to be used as precursor to a hospital visit.  If it was a forgone conclusion that help can arrive in time, no one would carry an epipen.

deknow
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bee-nuts
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« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2012, 12:11:30 PM »

By the time you call 911 and figure out your friend cant breath or speak any more and the 911 operator gives you the permission you so desperately need  to use the epi-pen, I would have administered it with the oral consent of my client and be to or almost to the hospital by the time an ambulance is pulling out of the garage and finally arrives to administer CPR to a lifeless corpse. 



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The moment a person forms a theory, his imagination sees in every object only the traits which favor that theory

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deknow
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« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2012, 12:50:27 PM »

...I'd be surprised if a 911 dispatcher would "give you permission" to use an epi pen prescribed for one person on another.

deknow
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bee-nuts
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« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2012, 01:53:23 PM »

...I'd be surprised if a 911 dispatcher would "give you permission" to use an epi pen prescribed for one person on another.

deknow

I would be too!  Another reason why I would not waist my time calling them!
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The moment a person forms a theory, his imagination sees in every object only the traits which favor that theory

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kathyp
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« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2012, 04:32:11 PM »

calling 911 first is the correct thing to do in any emergency.  this gets help on it's way.  what you decide to do after depends on you and the circumstances.  epi pens will give you a chance for quick and temporary relief.  that's why they say you should have two.  one may not last long enough for help to get to you.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
bee-nuts
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« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2012, 02:30:13 AM »

How many of your visits to er did were followed by a 911 call?  Ill get them to the hospital before 911 needs to be called unless they fall over on me before I can react.  You can give all the scenarios you want about what is legally right in any situation but real life is not a debate.  If someone is having a hard time breathing, Ill bet my bottom dollar they tell me to hit them with the pen and then we will haul donkey to the hospital NOW!  Ill call 911 on the way if I have to.  I dont worry about the legal baloney when crap hits the fan, and if it comes to court, thats what a jury of peers is for, common sense.
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The moment a person forms a theory, his imagination sees in every object only the traits which favor that theory

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Jim 134
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« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2012, 06:05:16 AM »

How many of your visits to er did were followed by a 911 call?  Ill get them to the hospital before 911 needs to be called unless they fall over on me before I can react.  You can give all the scenarios you want about what is legally right in any situation but real life is not a debate.  If someone is having a hard time breathing, Ill bet my bottom dollar they tell me to hit them with the pen and then we will haul donkey to the hospital NOW!  Ill call 911 on the way if I have to.  I dont worry about the legal baloney when crap hits the fan, and if it comes to court, thats what a jury of peers is for, common sense.


 lau lau lau lau lau lau lau lau lau lau lau


   BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
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JackM
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« Reply #37 on: June 14, 2012, 07:29:42 AM »

You folks take your risks, I will take mine, I have the medical education and experience to know what is proper, legal, and best for the patient..  I gave my retired professional advice.  Your choices are yours.  No need to argue, was just trying to give good quasi medical advice.

Everyone has a different situation and that makes the whole thing fluid with many optional roads to travel.
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“I now have absolute proof that smoking even one marijuana cigarette is equal in brain damage to being on Bikini Island during an H-bomb blast” – Ronald Reagan
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