Walter T. Kelley F-style Frames

[Walt Starr]

Hi all, Newbee here.

I've been researching getting into beekeeping in the 2013 season. I'll be getting with some local beeks for this season to try things out and see if I can shadow them in their apiaries (hey, I'd be free labor for them).

If I do this, I want to go 'treatment free', or attempt to stay away from aracicides, antibiotics, etc. Basically chemical free. Due to this choice I'm convinced that foundationless is the right way to go, as well as going with 8-frame medium supers and frames exclusively to standardize all equipment.

My question centers around the F-style frames sold by Walter T. Kelley. I'm wondering about direct experiences with these frames, how the bees take to them, any dos or don'ts with them, etc. (I already figure NO pre-waxing the guides).

My plans would be to purchase enough wooden ware for five hives, but start with three packages and let the bees do what they do. I'm also wondering if wire should be installed in the F-style frames prior to installation in the hive bodies or if its a better idea to leave out wire and let the bees do what they do.

Any experiences with these frames would be greatly appreciated.

[AllenF]

Where are you located?

[Walt Starr]

Illinois, about a 50 minute drive west of Chicago.

[AllenF]

I do not know of anyone using these frames but I am sure there are several out there using them.   I believe those frames will work fine for you.   
Copied from the catalog:    "This frame is designed for those who want to go foundationless. This frame has a comb guide built into the top bar that is centered and measures about 1/4” x 1/4”. The bottom bar is solid. No foundation is used in this frame. A coating of wax on the guide will help the bees draw on this frame." 

[Oblio13]

I use 8-frame mediums and Kelley's foundationless frames. The only downside to them is that if you don't keep an eye on them sometimes the bees will make a cross-combed mess. When that happens, I just wait until the entire super is full of honey and harvest the whole thing.

(Usually we just harvest a frame of honey whenever we need some. Just pick a full frame, run a knife around it and let the comb plop into a bowl, then put the empty frame back.)

[Walt Starr]

Thanks for the info. As a Newbee, this looks more and more like the way I should go. If Michael Bush weighs in on my choices I'll feel very comfortable.

[Joe D]

I don't use those frames, but I have some hives total foundationless, and some with combed frames.  If you keep an eye on them when they start building. When they run comb across frames you may have to cut and straighten out, put rubber bands to hold cut ends in.  If you catch quick enough you can gently bend it in to place.  I have had 1 hive that ran across frames, and a few that were angling to one side.  Most run comb straight though.  Good luck when you get your bees.

Joe

[annette]

I know Michael Bush uses them or has mentioned them.

But my experience has been different and I must share. I have always used the top and bottom grooved frames and melted starter strips into them. Never had any problems with the bees drawing out the frames nice and straight.

Last year I ordered about 70 of the Walter Kelley frames and just interspersed them between the grooved frames. Firstly they fit in the hive differently. They seem to be a bit longer in length or something. I think you have to use the Walter Kelley supers to go with them.

They made a mess in every hive I used them. The bees cross combed in all 5 of my hives last year and I ended up with the worst mess of having to fix each and every frame and still they made a mess again.

I finally took them all out and will never use them again.  I cannot for the life of me figure out the problem because the frames look so nice with the bevel and all. But they just did not work for me.

[Oblio13]

... Firstly they fit in the hive differently. They seem to be a bit longer in length or something. I think you have to use the Walter Kelley supers to go with them...

I have hive bodies from at least four manufacturers, and none of them are Kelley. Haven't experienced this problem.

[T Beek]

This is my fifth season using foundationless and my third using Walter Kelly frames.  As long as I've also used drawn frames that are placed alternately between the empties I've never had any problems.  I've heard of some beeks simply placing full boxes of empty foundationless frames and regretting it when they have a look, finding just alot of cross-comb, and confronted with a real mess to correct. 

If a beek has no available drawn frames they could use some (marked) foundation frames 'just to get started' and remove them as they hatch out.

I also have a mix of frames of differing heights/sizes and have experienced minimal issues.

t

[gardeningfireman]

I haven't had any problems with combs going "across" frames with or without foundation. But, I do get a lot of frames where the bees build "double comb" or combine the combs of two frames together. Makes a mess. This happens in both boxes with nine and ten frames.

[gdoten]

I've read Michael Bush's foundationless page as well as other sites/blogs and I'm still not certain how to start a new hive from a package without using foundation. I'm ordering a bunch of the Kelley F frames (for 2 new 8 frame medium hives) and what I'm unclear about is should I just put 8 F frames into the medium boxes? I read that every other frame should be an already-drawn frame, but I don't have any of those.* Should I just get some "regular" frames that'll take foundation and use those between the F frames and then rotate them out over the season? Or maybe every other frame should be wired, like Walt seems to be asking?

(*My first year was last year, with a deep box of 10 frames and a package, but my bees all disappeared at the end of Sept. So I'm trying something new this year! Plan to try and catch a swarm to put into this first hive.)

[T Beek]

Yeah, it sucks if you don't have any drawn frames to use but using foundation to start a "foundationless" system is fine if that's all you have.  I always have some around just In Case.  I suggest marking them so that as your bees build up and out (and then hatch out) you can remove them, replacing with foundationless frames.  Use the 'removed' foundation frames placed in another box for catching swarms.  Swarms 'love' old brood comb. 

Going foundationless is a little time consuming but well worth it IMO.  Why add someone else's problems to your beeyard?

[Michael Bush]

Use what you have.  If you have drawn comb, that's nice.  If you don't, then you don't.  Keep an eye on them at first and straighten things if they get off.  Don't take the view that they might straighten things out if they are off.  One good comb leads to another.  One bad comb leads to another.  Bees build parallel combs.  That's what they do.  If you have a good guide, odds are the first comb will be straight, but, as Pooh says, "you can never tell with bees".  Keep an eye on things.  Combs can be cut out and tied into frames if worse comes to worse.  Wire will only make things harder to fix if they do get off...

[Rurification]

I started two packages foundationless last year.  One in a lang and one in a horizontal hive [22 frames long, fits two supers side by side on top.]   I used the F and S style frames.  The bees did pretty well.  Yes, there was some cross comb.   We had to keep an eye on it and push the curved ends back sometimes.   I had some double comb.   I learned how to do cut outs from the 'bad' comb into new frames.  I learned how not to hold frames where the comb wasn't completely attached.   In general, it was well worth the hassle.  I'm completely foundationless [happily, very little varroa] and I have enough straight comb in frames that I can checkerboard it with empty frames and get gorgeous comb.  Most of the time.

I have found that if I talked nicely and praised the bees profusely for the straight comb, then they were much more likely to draw straight comb from then on.   Not. 

The bees will do what they do.   If the comb is crazy, you can always harvest the wax.  I got some nice candles this winter.

[T Beek]

"One good comb leads to another" says MB!  I Love it    I hear a song, Honeycomb Blues anyone?