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Author Topic: Explaining Socialism in an easy to understand way  (Read 8636 times)
kathyp
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« Reply #40 on: June 01, 2012, 09:50:08 AM »

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Are they socialist??  I know they have socialist parties, but I do not think they are socialist . . . IDK

we kind of sling the word around without understanding the meaning.  we have had redistribution in this country for many years.  all of it well meaning.  all of it eventually destructive.

my sister has lived in england for 12 or 13 years.  she told me that regardless of the parties platforms, all elections are really about reforming, improving, funding, the social welfare programs.  you can't get rid of them.  you can't make people pay for them.  you can only tweak them to try to make people happy with their "free" stuff.

the biggest problem in england is the NHS.  it's a disaster financially and the patient care is slipping.  they have tried a bunch of things to make it better and less costly.  when they wanted to charge 1 pound for doctors office visits, people came undone.  when they tried to make ER waits shorter, the patients just got left outside in the ambulance so that the hospital could meet the new standards of wait time....

next biggest problem is public assistance...but that's another story....
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #41 on: June 01, 2012, 10:07:30 AM »

Are they socialist??  I know they have socialist parties, but I do not think they are socialist . . . IDK

My point is that Norway and Sweden should be sharing their successes with those that are different and less successful that aren't too far away from them. Don't hold them up as the gold standard and then rag on the US for having that same diversity(ok, we're not THAT bad!!) and dealing with it the same way.
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« Reply #42 on: June 01, 2012, 10:19:02 AM »


My point is that Norway and Sweden should be sharing their successes with those that are different and less successful that aren't too far away from them.


OK, so they don't.  That's a good thing.  The US should follow that model and stop giving handouts to countries, especially any country in the middle east. . .

Heck, I'm from the failed-state of Illinois . . .maybe you folks in more-successful states can give us a handout.
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kathyp
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« Reply #43 on: June 01, 2012, 10:25:39 AM »

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.maybe you folks in more-successful states can give us a handout.

we are  grin
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #44 on: June 01, 2012, 10:41:42 AM »

Scadso,

Brief lesson in geopolitics.  You may not be aware of it, but Europe/the EU are not a country in any way shape or form.  They are an economic partnership. There is no more reason for Norway to give to Greece.  Any assistance given is purely cooperative.

Also, Norway is not part of the Eurozone.  They are on their own currency.

For you to say, well why doesn't Norway help out Greece is like saying, "the U.S. is obligated to help out Mexico because you're all part of The Americas." 
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Scadsobees
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« Reply #45 on: June 01, 2012, 11:42:39 AM »

I'm glad you realize that! grin

My point is that neither Norway nor Sweden suffer from much geographical, political, or racial diversity, which makes their form of socialism very simple to achieve successfully.  They can stand apart from all the failures in Europe, not take part, and wash their hands of it because it isn't their problem. Yes, that's ideal.  rolleyes

No part of the US can do that.

My point is that if you want to compare the US to either one of those countries, you would need to compare successes and failures of the US to a much larger, diverse area of Europe, and not just a couple of successful areas. 

But somebody who is in favor of socialism is going to be blind to that, and only want to take the 2 successes out of all the failures.
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« Reply #46 on: June 01, 2012, 12:15:18 PM »

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which makes their form of socialism very simple to achieve successfully. 


depends on how you define success.  "I'll give my money to the government.  i'll trust them to make wise decisions.  in return, i get "free" stuff."  not my definition of success, but if it's theirs, that's fine.

Quote
You may not be aware of it, but Europe/the EU are not a country in any way shape or form.  They are an economic partnership.

this was the idea.  this is no longer a fact.  just as our congress regulates and messes in everything using the excuse of the commerce clause, so Brussels regulates and messes in everything as part of the economic partnership.  you'd be hard pressed in the EU to find anything that has not been touched by EU regulations.  when you have a central body with the power to reach out and touch every aspect of your life, you have lost your sovereignty.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #47 on: June 01, 2012, 12:47:57 PM »

The last I checked, China was communist, not socialist.

For true comparisons, you should look at countries like Finland, Norway, Sweden . . .  which consistently rate among the best places to live in the world.  High life expectancy, high happiness rating on most scales used, low infant mortality (which the US should be ashamed of), standardized test scores that blow the US away, . . . . etc.  To use China as a "socialist" example is incorrect.

Now, I'm not advocating socialism, but I hardly see those socialist countries "failing".  I see doctors, highly-skilled engineers, . . . etc. coming out of these countries.  I see an education system that far exceeds in test scores.  I see them thriving, and DEMOCRATIC.  To call them "failing" is a joke.  Take a trip to Sweden . . . everyone there isn't getting an F.

Thoughts?
Who do these countries you mentioned depend on for military protection? Do they spend any of their own money on military?
As far as test scores go. That just proves what the federal govt. and the teachers unions have done to our educational system. DUMBED UM DOWN so all will be equal.
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c10250
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« Reply #48 on: June 01, 2012, 03:17:17 PM »

The last I checked, China was communist, not socialist.

For true comparisons, you should look at countries like Finland, Norway, Sweden . . .  which consistently rate among the best places to live in the world.  High life expectancy, high happiness rating on most scales used, low infant mortality (which the US should be ashamed of), standardized test scores that blow the US away, . . . . etc.  To use China as a "socialist" example is incorrect.

Now, I'm not advocating socialism, but I hardly see those socialist countries "failing".  I see doctors, highly-skilled engineers, . . . etc. coming out of these countries.  I see an education system that far exceeds in test scores.  I see them thriving, and DEMOCRATIC.  To call them "failing" is a joke.  Take a trip to Sweden . . . everyone there isn't getting an F.

Thoughts?
Who do these countries you mentioned depend on for military protection? Do they spend any of their own money on military?
As far as test scores go. That just proves what the federal govt. and the teachers unions have done to our educational system. DUMBED UM DOWN so all will be equal.

They all have their own armies, navy, airforce, . . . etc.   In fact Sweden builds its own fighter jets, don't they.  SAAB?

Thus, they all pay for their own armies.
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« Reply #49 on: June 01, 2012, 04:16:19 PM »

That is really funny.  True and funny.

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kathyp
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« Reply #50 on: June 01, 2012, 06:47:18 PM »

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Thus, they all pay for their own armies.

do most countries have a military?  yes.  can most countries defend themselves?  no.  do they even think they can?  no.  this is especially true of the NATO countries.  while they are spending money on social welfare programs, we have been picking up the bulk of the cost of NATO.  a lot of these costs are hidden.  for instance....it's important for troops that are going to fight together to be able to communicate on compatible equipment.  we coughed up for that because no one else would.  the sidearm of the us military was the .45, but the NATO countries liked the pissy 9mm.  we switched out ours for theirs because using the same weapon made sense from an ammo supply point of view.  we have the only navy capable of covering multiple shipping areas and theaters. the french and brits are now working on a ship sharing deal....that ought to be interesting......

about the only country that i wouldn't bet against is Finland.  might throw in Thailand...and the Japanese would give it a good go.....
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #51 on: June 02, 2012, 01:12:25 AM »

... probably because they are flooding places like walmart with cheap products made with prison labor or ... working for a bowl of rice...

Please explain then why the Chinese are buying domestic produced Motor Homes, or Asian Winnebago's to take family vacations.
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kathyp
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« Reply #52 on: June 02, 2012, 09:41:15 AM »

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Please explain then why the Chinese are buying domestic produced Motor Homes, or Asian Winnebago's to take family vacations.

i think i said something similar, but my point was that in china you don't have workers making the kind of demands of business that they make here.  which is kind of funny, since unions are some shade of communist in both formation, and later behavior....although....it never really worked out well for the worker when the revolution came.... Wink
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #53 on: June 02, 2012, 11:48:29 PM »

... I guess I can give you a couple of examples before bed time.
1.)  Financial Crisis of 2008.
2.)  Massive loss of manufacturing in the USA.
3.)  Oil speculators gone wild on Wall Street driving up prices and killing GDP.
4.)  Billionairs trying to avoid paying taxes on the money they made HERE.
5.)  Kwame Kilpatrick serving himself on the publics dollar.

Bonus Greed:  Did you happen to notice how JP Morgan had a 2 billion dollar gambling loss the other day?  What do you call that? 

I intend to address your concerns one at a time, starting with issue number two, "Massive loss of manufacturing [jobs] in the USA."

http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?t=0&v=69&l=en
Here is a little data that may upset you.

First I wish to call your attention to lines 130,131, & 132 in the above link.
The people living below the poverty line in the United States as a percent of the population (see line 131) is 12%.  This puts The United States ahead of the Socialist Paradise of Denmark where 12.1% are living below the poverty level, but places the USA behind Syria where 11.9% of the population lives or dies below the poverty line.

Furthermore low income earners fare better in the USA than in say number 119 Germany where 15.5% of Germans live below the poverty level.  Other nations with larger percentages of their citizens living below the poverty line are:
#1     Chad with 80% in poverty
#25    Kenya with 50% in poverty
#50    Papua New Guinea 37% in poverty
#75    Lebanon at 28%
#100   Greece at  20%
#125   Hungary where 13.9% are below the poverty line

The rate of poverty in Israel is 23.6%
   “     “    “       “       “  Japan is at 15.7%
   “     “    “       “       “  Belgium 15.2%
   “     “    “       “       “  South Korea 15%
   “     “    “       “       “  The United Kingdom 14%

At the lower end of the list and in next to last place is The Peoples' Republic of China with 2.8% of its citizens living in poverty , and in last place is the Nationalist Chinese nation of Taiwan where a mere 1.6% of its citizens fall below the poverty line.

Nothing is ever 100% but notice that the more Socialism a particular country has the more likely its citizens are living in poverty.  However the defining issue seems to be how hard a particular nations’ citizens are willing to or how much a government encourages its people to work in order to pull themselves out of poverty.  This seems to also go hand-in-hand with how well the government protects business, and now easy the government makes it for businesses to get started or to relocate there.   

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Mason
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« Reply #54 on: June 04, 2012, 05:55:25 PM »

Beekeeping is like socialism.

We give them a free crappy house,  free crappy healthcare, free crappy food, we work them to death, steal/rob their gold, hand select their leaders,  take from strong hives and give to the weaker ones, try to persuade them life is good and not to leave,  capture the ones that do leave and justify it by claiming we are taking care of them.  They should be grateful....we could just spray them with Raid.

It's fun!

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kathyp
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« Reply #55 on: June 04, 2012, 07:09:11 PM »

 lau
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #56 on: July 16, 2012, 09:19:30 PM »

No matter what your Church preferences are please listen to the Powerful Message!
 
It's great to see someone in the clergy stand up for what is happening to America .
I'd say this Priest has taken the bull by the horn !  Refreshing to hear this come from the pulpit --- more religious leaders should take this topic as a priority:
  
Please listen to what this Priest states immediately after his opening prayer. Then you will know why I have shared it and I hope you will too~!  
  
Stick with this thru the first few comments……you will be surprised.  It is going to be an interesting event.  
  
An outspoken Colorado priest was asked to lead thousands of delegates in prayer at the state Republican convention.
  
What he said next caused quite a stir in the convention hall. See for yourself...
  
  Http://www.stthomasmore.org/parish-clergy/video/invocation



   BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley  

http://www.stthomasmore.org/parish-clergy/video/invocation

Jim,I couldn't get the first link to work so I added this one.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2012, 10:06:05 PM by Jim 134 » Logged

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beek4018
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« Reply #57 on: August 15, 2012, 11:47:48 AM »

No matter what your Church preferences are please listen to the Powerful Message!
 
It's great to see someone in the clergy stand up for what is happening to America .
I'd say this Priest has taken the bull by the horn !  Refreshing to hear this come from the pulpit --- more religious leaders should take this topic as a priority:
 
Please listen to what this Priest states immediately after his opening prayer. Then you will know why I have shared it and I hope you will too~!   
 
Stick with this thru the first few comments……you will be surprised.  It is going to be an interesting event. 
 
An outspoken Colorado priest was asked to lead thousands of delegates in prayer at the state Republican convention.
 
What he said next caused quite a stir in the convention hall. See for yourself...
 
  http://www.stthomasmore.org/parish-clergy/video/invocation



   BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley 

http://www.stthomasmore.org/parish-clergy/video/invocation




Gee - the church on its political bandwagon.  This guy's rant is EXACTLY why we need to abolish tax exempt status for all religious institutions.  No that doesn't limit his freedom of speech.  He's still free to say whatever he wants.  But if he's going to use the pulpit for a political diatribe, then his church can pay taxes like every other free to say what they want business in the country.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 05:46:49 AM by beek4018 » Logged
kingbee
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« Reply #58 on: August 15, 2012, 01:10:39 PM »

... Brief lesson in geopolitics.  You may not be aware of it, but Europe/the EU are not a country in any way shape or form.  They are an economic partnership...


Not for long.

http://www.libertynewsonline.com/article_397_30800.php
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kathyp
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« Reply #59 on: August 15, 2012, 02:08:17 PM »

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This guy's rant is EXACTLY why we need to abolish tax exempt status for all religious institutions.

that would have done obama out of a lot of politicking.  evil

historically, pubs and churches were the two main places where politics were hashed out.  it was not until the 70's or so that churches began to ignore politics because they became afraid of the bogus separation issue.  in a free country, you can't really separate religious views and political position.  part of politics is the moral stand taken on issues. 
that's one of the reasons that communist countries seek to destroy or co-opt organized religion as soon as they come into power.  it the reason people like Bonhoffer ended up in jail and then killed.  He and his kind are the reason we don't want to separate our beliefs  from our politics.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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