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Author Topic: Explaining Socialism in an easy to understand way  (Read 8303 times)
kathyp
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« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2012, 11:39:07 PM »

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IF at the same time the 1%ers do more for their/our country.

you are really hung up on this 1% thing.  what do you want them to do and why?  and why do they have any more responsibility for things than the rest of us do?


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I also believe it is uncontrolled greed that is bringing down America

how about some examples of this uncontrolled greed taking down the country? 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
kathyp
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« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2012, 11:41:34 PM »

and what do you do about greed anyway?  regulate it?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Atri
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« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2012, 12:16:20 AM »

Hmmm.......so what would You guys give away to payoff debt to China  1.Alaska state+lovely California maybe Texas would do for both  Or 2.Let Your President print some phony $$$ and pay for  what glorious capitalism accomplished in this Country.I think it is simple US is in deep sh....China smart move (they just prove it's possible to defeat Enemy without firing one shot).I'm really disappointed after12 years in US ....short run.considering move back to Europe can't take another 4 years .i'll wait for election "hope" is not too late....and I'm not communist  Undecided
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« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2012, 12:23:44 AM »

Atri, don’t go, we need more like you, Acebird, T-beek, Ray, and Mushmushi to help right this sinking ship.

You are right!
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BlueBee
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« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2012, 12:35:30 AM »

how about some examples of this uncontrolled greed taking down the country? 
I guess I can give you a couple of examples before bed time.

1.)  Financial Crisis of 2008.
2.)  Massive loss of manufacturing in the USA.
3.)  Oil speculators gone wild on Wall Street driving up prices and killing GDP.
4.)  Billionairs trying to avoid paying taxes on the money they made HERE.
5.)  Kwame Kilpatrick serving himself on the publics dollar.

Bonus Greed:  Did you happen to notice how JP Morgan had a 2 billion dollar gambling loss the other day?  What do you call that? 
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iddee
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« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2012, 07:21:30 AM »

""how about some examples of this uncontrolled greed taking down the country?  ""

A guy with 4 girlfriends handing over half or more of their welfare checks to him.

A girl with 4 kids and wanting another one just so her freebies will increase.

A married couple getting divorced just so they can get on the GIV'MINT dole, then continuing to live together having more kids for more raises.

Slipping across the border to another country so you can go from working for 100.00 a month, to getting 1500.00 a month plus for doing nothing, plus free medical and housing.

That's what I call greed.
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« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2012, 10:57:56 AM »

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1.)  Financial Crisis of 2008.
2.)  Massive loss of manufacturing in the USA.
3.)  Oil speculators gone wild on Wall Street driving up prices and killing GDP.
4.)  Billionairs trying to avoid paying taxes on the money they made HERE.
5.)  Kwame Kilpatrick serving himself on the publics dollar.

Bonus Greed:  Did you happen to notice how JP Morgan had a 2 billion dollar gambling loss the other day?  What do you call that?   
 


1. caused and made worse by congress insisting that banks loan to people who did not normally qualify, and then guaranteeing that fannie and freddy would take the risk on the loans.  if there was greed involved in that, it was congress people wanting to pander to their voters and keep their government checks.
add to that homeowners who bought more than they could afford, or took loans against the equity with the hope that the value of their homes would continue to increase.
how do you fix that?  the get the government the heck out of banking business decisions, you don't bail out banks that make bad decisions, and you don't bail out people who make bad decisions. 

2.  in it's simplest terms the loss of manufacturing has to do with a global economy.  liberals tend to be far more "globalist" than conservatives.  unions are also globalists and socialists and have done themselves out of the competition for manufacturing jobs. again, you have government (things like minimum wage) and unions interfering with market forces.  if a business can't afford to compete in the global market, they either move or fold.

3.  oil speculation is based on projections.  it is just as apt to drive prices down, as up.  again...that whole global market thing.  oil is a commodity like wheat, or pork.  prices are based on the projected cost...supply and demand, refining costs, etc.  and of course, the is OPEC which we have not control over.
however, there are two major factors in our gas costs.  the first is the lack of refineries to meet our domestic demand.  again, government making it next to impossible to get the required permits to build them in a cost effective manner, and tree huggers making it legally cost prohibitive to build them.   
there are two things that would immediately lower cost for us....and we know this from history.  one is to open drilling and the other is to permit refineries.  because speculators speculate on future cost, they would see the increase in domestic supply and the cost would go down.  of course, lowering taxes on fuel would be good to, but those taxes exist to manipulate our behavior and to pay for government pork.

4.  why not?  why the heck would you willingly pay taxes that you can legally avoid?  why duty do they have to pay more than anyone else?  US citizens living abroad still are required to pay taxes.  that's why so many give up citizenship and leave.  it's not just billionaires.  there are plenty of expats all over the world who have income that would be taxed if they kept their citizenship.  i'm not sure why you think that there is some special duty that billionaires have to pay more?

5.  he's not the only one.  some are doing it illegally, but all are doing it just by being a government employee.  they come to feel that they have a right to that money and no duty to us.  McCain is one of the worst.  to my knowledge he's not doing anything illegal, but he is an arrogant ass and needs to go.

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Bonus Greed:  Did you happen to notice how JP Morgan had a 2 billion dollar gambling loss the other day?  What do you call that? 


i call it poor business.  however, it won't make a dent in their business and it won't hurt investors.  what it will do is embarrass the company and cause some investors to go elsewhere.  it has also cost some their very nice jobs.  that's how it's supposed to work. 
one of the reasons we have so many poor decisions made, both by some businesses and by individuals, is that there are no consequences.  whatever you do, you can count on the government to fix it for you.  imagine how different things might be if people had to be responsible for what they do?
would some people get hurt?  yes.  however, the system would self correct and much more quickly than when the government is constantly "fixing" things. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2012, 11:21:17 PM »

Hayek's Road to Serfdom is always worth another read.... work with transplants from communist or socialist countries....especially the Russians, [and] you know how dead on right he was...

I also recommend a book by Hendrick Smith called "The New Russians" not to be confused with another book by Smith called simpally, "The Russians."  No one can accuse Smith of being a Neocon either.
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« Reply #28 on: May 31, 2012, 04:56:25 PM »

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However I think many of our econonic problems are due to removal of rules, regulations, and taxes on the 1%.  That is now threatening to take us all down.

but you see, this is where you are wrong.  and not because i say so.  history tells us you are wrong.  regulations and government interference suppress the private sector.  government interference is what started the whole banking and housing mess. 

higher taxes suppress production and producers.   “Our tax system still siphons out of the private economy too large a share of personal and business purchasing power and reduces the incentive for risk, investment and effort – thereby aborting our recoveries and stifling our national growth rate.”
– John F. Kennedy, Jan. 24, 1963, message to Congress on tax reduction and reform, House Doc. 43, 88th Congress, 1st Session.

and he was right.  what is the incentive to produce when the government is going to take what you produce and give it away.
 


Kathy, have you ever really known a genuine entrepreneur?  They don't avoid a good business opportunity simply because of taxes or regulation.  Sure that factors into the mix.  But it's just another consideration to be managed, like any other overhead category.  As a self-employed small businessman, I can tell you it's laughable to think that I'd walk away from a profitable idea simply because I had to pay tax on it.

There may have been a  time ( in the 50s) when business felt some obligation to give back to the community and support those that help them get what they have.  But these days, if we give business a tax break to create job incentives, they'll stick in as deep in their pocket as possible ( or hide it offshore).  The big business world has become all about making as much for the executives as possible as quickly as possible.  There's no loyalty, obligation,or integrity left in 99% of busineses with more than 50 employees.

you want higher taxes on the so called 1%.  to what end?  what will be done with that money?  or better yet...what would be solved with that money?

what we are doing now has been done before, and failed before.  why would you want to invest in failure?
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« Reply #29 on: May 31, 2012, 05:07:10 PM »

I know a couple entrepreneurs that shy away from quite a few investments purely because of the tax ramifications. And guess what, when they choose not to follow those paths,jobs are not created.Or taxable revenue for that matter.
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beek4018
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« Reply #30 on: May 31, 2012, 05:49:23 PM »

I know a couple entrepreneurs that shy away from quite a few investments purely because of the tax ramifications. And guess what, when they choose not to follow those paths,jobs are not created.Or taxable revenue for that matter.

Buzbee, if you queried them closely, I'm sure taxes were not the only reasons.  Nobody with any brains says "I'm not going to invest in a sound, worthy, morally upodtanding endeavor that could make me millions of dollars because I'd have to give 40% to the gov't.  Instead I'll go find something less profitablre, and/or morally questionable in a third world nation just so I can pay 30% ( on less money)."  That just doesn't happen in the real world.

Republicans present that fiction repeatedly, but it's simply used to falsely instigate fear, which is the entirety of the  platform on The Right these days.
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kathyp
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« Reply #31 on: May 31, 2012, 10:32:13 PM »

beek, don't think you know many business owners.  i know many.  it's not that they'd shy away from a good investment because of taxes.  that's not even the issue we are discussing here.  what they will do is not expand, take their business to a more tax friendly environment, be that another state or country, or...as in the case of a couple of my friends, simply sell off and be done with it.  no...not the business...but the business assets. 

they will refrain from hiring more people, they will not expand, and they will not had a growing business to their children.

taxes do make a difference, but so do regulations.  by the time you have piled on both, it's not worth it to many people, or they sink under it all.

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Republicans present that fiction repeatedly, but it's simply used to falsely instigate fear, which is the entirety of the  platform on The Right these days.

so says the left...the party of redistribution and failure to thrive.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #32 on: June 01, 2012, 03:11:16 AM »

Kathy,  you can call the Left the party of "failure to thrive", but the market is up what, oh, 150% since Obama took office.  Yes, jobs are slow coming back, but anybody with any real understanding of the downturn knows that this was a debt-based recession and they ALWAYS take much longer to turn around, and jobs are the very last thing to come back in those situations.

No, The Right are the party of the old and fearful.  The Republicans have been lying in wait for the Boomers for decades.  The knew they had a generation (or more) of aging population headed their way, and that the elderly are VERY easily ( and understandably)  manipulated by fear.  Look at everything the Repubs. say and do, it's always based in the rhetoric of "these people" are trying to take things away from you".  It's everywhere on the conservative radio and TV.  Just look at the ads: for Carbonite computer security, and emergency food and water, identity theft, gold brokers (because the markets are bad and your savings is in danger).

Conservatives have suckered the aging population over to their side with fear and false manipulation.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2012, 08:32:20 AM by beek4018 » Logged
c10250
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« Reply #33 on: June 01, 2012, 08:31:01 AM »

The last I checked, China was communist, not socialist.

For true comparisons, you should look at countries like Finland, Norway, Sweden . . .  which consistently rate among the best places to live in the world.  High life expectancy, high happiness rating on most scales used, low infant mortality (which the US should be ashamed of), standardized test scores that blow the US away, . . . . etc.  To use China as a "socialist" example is incorrect.

Now, I'm not advocating socialism, but I hardly see those socialist countries "failing".  I see doctors, highly-skilled engineers, . . . etc. coming out of these countries.  I see an education system that far exceeds in test scores.  I see them thriving, and DEMOCRATIC.  To call them "failing" is a joke.  Take a trip to Sweden . . . everyone there isn't getting an F.

Thoughts?
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beek4018
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« Reply #34 on: June 01, 2012, 08:36:46 AM »

C,

I'm actually living in Europe these days, and I have to say you seem to have something there. 

The countries you mention have their issues (high cost of living, and xenophobia/immigration concerns), but failure to thrive ain't one of them.  When you talk to most of those folks, they admit they pay A LOT in taxes, but they don't begrudge it, because they get a great deal in return. 
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c10250
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« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2012, 08:39:27 AM »

News flash . . . . You guys in the US lived in a socialist country well before Obama took office.  I believe that somewhere upwards of 50% of the US budget went to pay medicare and social security, farm subsidies, . . . etc. ,  . . . even before Obama.

When 50% of your budget goes for social programs, I would say you are well on your way to being socialist.

And some of the worst offenders in my opinion are the farmers who take farm subsidies.  These subsidies from CRP to ethanol subsidies for corn do nothing but drive up food prices, drive up land prices, and give the farmers my hard-earned money.
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« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2012, 08:55:57 AM »


For true comparisons, you should look at countries like Finland, Norway, Sweden . . .  which consistently rate among the best places to live in the world.  High life expectancy, high happiness rating on most scales used, low infant mortality (which the US should be ashamed of), standardized test scores that blow the US away, . . . . etc.  To use China as a "socialist" example is incorrect.

Thoughts?

So you are going to compare tiny countries in europe where it works because most everybody is the same (same race, same color, same genetics, same families, same climate) to hugely diverse countries like the US?

Socialism works great if everybody is the same.

As those countries become more diverse, their systems aren't working as well.  And why are they taking all that success and not sharing it??? 

Now take an area the size of the US in the European region and you'll get a much better comparison.  Most recently Greece...but what about Serbia? Croatia? Are they still 2nd or 3rd world countries? Why aren't the Swedes or Norse sharing their successes?  That's only 1/2 of the continental US away from them...  THEY should be ashamed of themselves!

China is becoming more capitalistic.  They're where the US was in the 40's and 50's - young, hungry, and willing to work for it.  We're old and sitting on our laurels and trying to enjoy our success.  No wonder they're eating our lunch...as we're becoming more and more socialistic!  Yeah...we know that, and have been trying to fight against it!
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c10250
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« Reply #37 on: June 01, 2012, 09:02:40 AM »


 . . . . Socialism works great if everybody is the same. . . . .



i just spit coffee all over my computer  grin  Now that was funny . . .

Just throw in a couple of immigrants and you totally screw up your socialist system.  I can't stop laughing!
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c10250
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« Reply #38 on: June 01, 2012, 09:18:56 AM »

.... Greece...but what about Serbia? Croatia? ....

Are they socialist??  I know they have socialist parties, but I do not think they are socialist . . . IDK
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kathyp
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« Reply #39 on: June 01, 2012, 09:40:46 AM »

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but the market is up what, oh, 150% since Obama took office

if you use the stock market as a measure of a presidents success, then sure, he's been a heck of a guy.

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Yes, jobs are slow coming back, but anybody with any real understanding of the downturn knows that this was a debt-based recession and they ALWAYS take much longer to turn around, and jobs are the very last thing to come back in those situations.

there is some truth to this.  it really doesn't matter what the cause of a recession is, the jobs are a lagging indicator of the health of the economy.  again though, not really the point. historically, recessions are natural swings of the economies.  they are not really a bad thing.  if they are not manipulated (helped) they are usually short and self correcting.  the best help a government can give an economy in recession is to give it less government.  
we have examples.  the 20's depression was deep but short with a great recovery.  the 30's depression was deep and long.  the major difference between the two was the government reaction.  in fact, the depression of the 30's was only ended because we got into the war game.

admins that have presided over the best economies have been the ones who have gotten out of the way.  kennedy knew it.  Reagan knew it.  clinton was eventually convinced of it.  bush 2 knew it.  

where ever president has gone wrong, FDR and Obama the worst of them, is in the spending.  they grow government in the good times because they can meet the demands of the lazy and the grow government in the bad times to pacify the lazy.

Quote
No, The Right are the party of the old and fearful.  The Republicans have been lying in wait for the Boomers for decades.  The knew they had a generation (or more) of aging population headed their way, and that the elderly are VERY easily ( and understandably)  manipulated by fear.  Look at everything the Repubs. say and do, it's always based in the rhetoric of "these people" are trying to take things away from you".  It's everywhere on the conservative radio and TV.  Just look at the ads: for Carbonite computer security, and emergency food and water, identity theft, gold brokers (because the markets are bad and your savings is in danger).

you are joking, right?  whenever anyone tries to talk about reforming SSI and medicare, you get a commercial from the loony left with grandma being tossed off a cliff.
as for commercials on radio, i don't know how you equate the commercials for private companies with things the right might want to do?

if i tell you that  the frayed wires you have strung around your house will eventually cause a fire, is that fear mongering?  if i tell you that SSI and Medicare are going to go broke....is that fear mongering?  these same elderly that you say are so easily scared are the ones that put these systems in place.  they have been told for decades that it was not a sustainable system.  if this was their retirement plan and it fall apart for them, i don't have much sympathy.

we have had many years to fix this and just because we were to stupid and stubborn to do it, does not mean that may grandchildren should be saddled with the burden of our stupidity.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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