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Author Topic: Explaining Socialism in an easy to understand way  (Read 8826 times)
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« on: May 13, 2012, 08:00:24 PM »

Want to know how well Obama's ideas are and how Ronald Reagan might tear them down - well... watch this!

ß~ě
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« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2012, 08:10:06 PM »

I like it.   Socialism always fails.   10% working hard, 90% collecting off that 10 and becoming dependent.   
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« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2012, 09:29:13 PM »

Hayek's Road to Serfdom is always worth another read.  all these years later, if you have ever had the chance to work with transplants from communist or socialist countries....especially the Russians, you know how dead on right he was with what he wrote.

you can get the RD version on line .pdf, but i suggest reading the whole thing. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2012, 11:11:06 PM »

I like it.   Socialism always fails. 
Is China's economy a failure?  Did you see the latest trade deficit numbers?
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« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2012, 11:46:05 PM »

Quote
Is China's economy a failure?  Did you see the latest trade deficit numbers?

wrong question.  is China a success for it's people?  in every way that we measure success, it is a failure.  until it began to allow a limited amount of free market, it's economy was a failure also.  whether or not it is a success now, remains to be seen. 

when you can control everything from labor to marketing, as china can, you can produce anything you want, in whatever quantities and marketed any way you want.  what is making it work at the moment is that profit is allowed.  profit motivates. 

on the other hand, with the amount of currency manipulation that china is engaged in, it is possible that they are not in the shape they'd like everyone to think.  it is also inaccurate to measure the health of their economy by the trade deficit.  it 1. says more about the bad shape we are in and 2. can be explained by the above manipulations and controls.  3.  Hong Kong's free markets are the driving force for the changes in Chinas business models. this alone is more a + for the power of free markets, than an ad for the controls of the communists. 

i am not at all sure what you find so appealing about china but you seem really hung up on them. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2012, 11:50:29 PM »

even though you never answer my questions, i'll ask one more.

what part of the Chinese system would you recommend we follow?  the whole communist system, parts, economic controls? 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2012, 12:08:31 AM »

Contraire!  I’m not hung up on Chinese booming economic success, but if somebody is winning at everything they’re doing and eating everybody’s lunch in the process, then maybe, just maybe, it is worth analyzing why they’ve been so successful.  It’s like in school, do you want to copy from the kid who consistently gets Fs or from the dweeb who gets As all the time?  It isn’t the USA getting A anymore.

Why are the Republicans so scared of success?  Clearly some amount of control over and economy and the “producers” and “consumers” has been very successful in China.  Yet the Republicans consistently claim otherwise.  Once again what they claim and reality are two different things. 

No I would not want to live in communist China, nor am I proposing we scrap “capitalism”.  However this Republican talk of Laissez-faire for the 1%ers to fix our problems just doesn’t stand up to real world data.
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« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2012, 12:17:03 AM »

even though you never answer my questions, i'll ask one more.

what part of the Chinese system would you recommend we follow?  the whole communist system, parts, economic controls? 
I'm sorry KathyP, I normally do try to answer questions, but I've just been so busy this spring that I'm usually too exhausted by the end of the day to politic. 

I had a college roommate (from New Jersery) who planned to be a lawyer in China back in the days when they were still red china!  I thought that was absolutley crazy at the time, but it turns out my roommate was a genius ahead of his time.  It's wise to keep an open mind.  As I said in the post above, I don't want to live in China!  I want to live in the USA, like Reagan, I believe the best place the world has ever known.  However I think many of our econonic problems are due to removal of rules, regulations, and taxes on the 1%.  That is now threatening to take us all down.
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« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2012, 12:51:48 AM »

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However I think many of our econonic problems are due to removal of rules, regulations, and taxes on the 1%.  That is now threatening to take us all down.

but you see, this is where you are wrong.  and not because i say so.  history tells us you are wrong.  regulations and government interference suppress the private sector.  government interference is what started the whole banking and housing mess. 

higher taxes suppress production and producers.   “Our tax system still siphons out of the private economy too large a share of personal and business purchasing power and reduces the incentive for risk, investment and effort – thereby aborting our recoveries and stifling our national growth rate.”
– John F. Kennedy, Jan. 24, 1963, message to Congress on tax reduction and reform, House Doc. 43, 88th Congress, 1st Session.

and he was right.  what is the incentive to produce when the government is going to take what you produce and give it away.

you want higher taxes on the so called 1%.  to what end?  what will be done with that money?  or better yet...what would be solved with that money?

what we are doing now has been done before, and failed before.  why would you want to invest in failure?
 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2012, 10:11:42 AM »

Quote
I’m not hung up on Chinese booming economic success, but if somebody is winning at everything they’re doing and eating everybody’s lunch in the process, then maybe, just maybe, it is worth analyzing why they’ve been so successful.

probably because they are flooding places like walmart with cheap products made with prison labor or people that are working for a bowl of rice and the government keeps all the profits, robbing their people blind in the process. we had a similar economic situation in the southern states back before the civil war, but oddly once slavery was outlawed their economy went into the toilet for some reason.

is the chinese government truly socialist ? do yourself a favor and read/re-read animal farm  for the answer. i'll give you a hint, the government is the pigs at the end of the story.
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« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2012, 04:30:15 PM »

""Is China's economy a failure?""

A country where the politicos make millions and the producers make less than 1 dollar per day is what you call successful socialism?? Where did you get that definition?
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« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2012, 04:57:33 PM »

The video was spot on.  Thanks for sharing John.

James
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« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2012, 05:04:55 PM »

I was strangely attracted to the animation and all the characters - I'll leave the political stuff to the pros here, but it sure made sense to me!!!

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« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2012, 08:37:11 PM »

Does this really mater ?are u paying taxes when selling honey?
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« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2012, 08:47:32 PM »

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Does this really mater ?are u paying taxes when selling honey?

you have found the coffee house  grin  this is where we argue/discuss things other than beekeeping.  beemaster was kind of brilliant to make a separate space for this so that we don't get into it on the various bee forums.  well...we shouldn't get into it.  we get scolded when we do and if we are lucky, our stuff gets moved here.

to answer your questions.  yes, this really matters and no, i don't pay taxes on my honey sales.  Wink
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2012, 09:46:04 PM »

I would gladly pay taxes on my honey sales if they would let me deduct my expenses. I spend more on gas in a week than I sell honey in a year.

Yes, it matters. Everyone needs to let a bit of steam off now and then. Just watch me and bluebee. We will show you how it's done. Cheesy
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« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2012, 09:51:24 PM »

I didn't think you were suppose to pay taxes on cash income.    evil
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« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2012, 10:39:52 PM »

Hi , I will give my opinion too, because I'm sure I know what I'm talking of. I did grow up in socialist east Germany befor the wall came down. Now I live in the USA ,not because it is the best country in the world, no, but I found the only fit for me and we have 2 wonderful kids. But back to the socialists, I would call it bureaucracy it is defiantly not socialism.I did just a wile ago a presentation in a school, about growing up in commie east Germany, I think I need to go and do more presentations to explain what socialism and communism means.
 Look at Germany now, lots of government regulations but it seams like many of them in favor for it's economy, Germany is regulated and booming.
 A coworker just came back from China he didn't see the sun for a week because of the smoke, no freedom and you really think it can grow endless. When is their  bubble bursting?
I think Obama doesn't bring this country down, it's the greed, he is just not a big help to turn it around.

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« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2012, 11:07:42 PM »

ch.cool, your perspective will be a welcome addition!

i remember when the wall came down.  a lot of west Germans were complaining that those from the east were lazy.  at about the same time, i was working with some Russians and people were saying the same about them.  i came to understand that it was not laziness.  it was a broken spirit. by that i mean that those from communist countries had lost the motivation to change their lives.  several generations of living under communism had made them passive.  survival was not about working hard, it was about not being noticed. 

i choose the definition statist because communism, socialism, and fascism, are all degrees of statism. they all take from the individual the right to determine their own destiny and make them, to some degree, dependent on the government. when the government gives, the government controls.

that's not to say that we don't need some regulations.  we have stop lights so we don't all run into each other.  we have standards for clean water and air.  however, any time you regulate, you have to use great caution that you do not take it to far.  it is one thing, for instance, to provide for those who can't provide for themselves.  it's another, to take from producers and give "free stuff" to those who won't provide for themselves. 

some business regulations are required.  you don't want a cattle feed lot in the middle of the downtown business district.  on the other hand, you shouldn't make it so difficult to get required permits that you can't have a cattle feed lot anywhere...or the cost to build one is prohibitive.  you don't want poisons dumped in rivers, but you also don't want such unreasonable and technologically impossible regulations that a business must shut down or be massively fined.

our constitution intentionally limited the federal government so that the people and the states would be free to prosper and regulate as they saw fit.  we were not designed to be a nation with 50 states.  we were designed to be 50 states with a limited federal government and maximum freedom to innovate and succeed. 

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2012, 11:09:44 PM »

Good points ch.cool.  I also believe it is uncontrolled greed that is bringing down America.  Yes, we also spend WAY too much and I’m in favor of massive spending cut IF at the same time the 1%ers do more for their/our country.

Beemaster, the Animation was very good in that clip! 
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