Need Bees Removed?
International
Beekeeping Forums
November 26, 2014, 07:36:32 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: 24/7 Ventrilo Voice chat -click for instructions and free software here
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar bee removal Login Register Chat  

Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: what is evolution anyway?  (Read 8404 times)
zippelk
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 52

Location: Hopelessly Lost


« Reply #60 on: April 07, 2012, 11:56:58 AM »

Ziddelk,
If you are calling people stupid here,and I have been following your posts,you may find your self in good company somewhere. And it may not be here. You seem to be flaunting yourself as smarter than everyone else.Our members here are entitled to their opinions,but if you feel the need to call them ignorant or "less educated" and perhaps not having the "supreme" knowledge you seem to have,take it somewhere else.

Hi Ken the Moderator.

I didn't call anyone stupid. I didn't say that I was smarter than anyone else, although I do have more knowledge on certain subjects that I have studied extensively, just as everyone here has more knowledge than I based on their areas of expertise (like bees, I'm sure!). Such is life. It's a product of experience, not necessarily intelligence. I do think that there are people here who are unwilling to learn. I give them facts that they can see, touch, measure, or calculate for themselves, if they so wish. They ignore the facts and answer with 'Yea well, I think...' and then accuse me of rhetoric. Whatever, I can see that there is no latitude for constructive dialogue with those folks, so I wish them well and look for those who are receptive to new information. What would you call me if I was your neighbor, I asked you if I should split my hive now, you said no because there are no drones yet, showed my your broodnest with drones just starting to develop, and I still said 'Yea well, I think it will be OK'? I can imagine what you would think, and if you were polite, you'd say best of luck, good day.

I didn't say anyone was not entitled to their opinions; quite the opposite, I think I have been respectful (although maybe occasionally flip for humor), gracious, apologetic, and wide open to spirited discussion. I try to address everyone's questions, citing my facts and directing folks to additional sources to corroborate my posts. I do not always get the same in return. And yes I do let people know when they are unequivocally wrong. I did not call any one person ignorant, other than the human race in general. We have been and continue to be largely ignorant of many aspects of the world around us, including the consequences of many of our actions. I thought this was common knowledge. And I clearly included myself in 'we'. Sorry if anyone was offended by my portrayal of humanity. But that, sir, is my opinion. I hope you don't kick me out just because you disagree with me.

Why am I here talking about these things? 2 reasons. (1) I think everyone everywhere can benefit from a better understanding of science. As I said to BTS, why wouldn't we base such things as policy as everyday activities on our best most objective understanding of the world around us? I am sure there are people here who have never had the opportunity to study science, and I thought they might appreciate hearing about it from an actual scientist. Several people said they enjoyed reading my posts. If that ceases to be the case, I will gladly take it somewhere else. (2) I think a better understanding of science in general, and evolution specifically, benefits beekeepers. For example, someone with a solid understanding of natural selection might address the varroa issue completely differently than someone just looking for a quick fix. We all want to be better beekeepers, right? I have tried to use examples using bees as much as I could, in this and the other thread on climate.

Please let me know if I have broken any rules.

cheers
Logged
BlueBee
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4398

Location: Mid Michigan


« Reply #61 on: April 07, 2012, 12:47:44 PM »

Let me also eat a little crow and apologize as some of my posts on this thread have gotten a little condescending.  I love my fellow beeks, even when we don’t agree on everything.
Logged
BlueBee
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4398

Location: Mid Michigan


« Reply #62 on: April 07, 2012, 01:58:38 PM »

I know in my heart the day will come when science will prove the existence of God, I just wonder if they are humble enough to share that with the world.

I tend to believe (based on math) that the existence of DNA is about as solid of proof as any scientist needs since it is virtually a mathematical impossibility for such a long string of WORKING information to form by random interactions of A,G,C,and Ts nucleotides in a primordial pool.  Whom created DNA in the first place is anybody’s guess, but it wasn’t created by random means.  Obviously others disagree.   

Quote
I believe God made man to evolve, that one statement can insult both theologists and scientist, but it sure makes sense to me and explains a whole lot.

This is about the only hypothesis that withstands the rigors of mathematical probabilities.  I think you are right Wink
Logged
BlueBee
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4398

Location: Mid Michigan


« Reply #63 on: April 07, 2012, 02:03:06 PM »

Zippelk, I’ve known about the Drake Equation for decades.  The Drake Equation is based on PROBABLITIES and MATH.  So you accept using PROBABILITY MATH for predicting the possibility of aliens but not when it comes to the random formation of long DNA polymers from a primordial soup of A,G,C,T?  Interesting  grin

As for your aliens, the Drake Equation supposedly gives the probability of alien life evolved to the point they can communicate.  Hence if you believe in Drake, then you should believe there are lots of aliens out there that can communicate.  I grant you that intelligent life would probably NOT be trying to communicate in fear of getting eaten, but the most basic form of communication any civilization is likely to discover at some point is radio waves.  This is because there are only 4 fundamental forces of physics in the known universe (strong nuclear, weak nuclear, electromagnetic, gravity).  Of those 4, EM is the simplest to manipulate. 

Hence at some point in your alien’s development, they will likely generate radio waves.  Radio waves travel at the speed of light and eventually radiate out to large angles of space.  We use radio telescopes to listen to radio waves all over space.  Yet, we don’t hear any of your aliens.  Why?
Logged
bee-nuts
Queen Bee
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1101


Location: Northwest Wisconsin


WWW
« Reply #64 on: April 07, 2012, 06:22:03 PM »

To think that all intelligent life forms would use our form of communication is absurd.  There may be hundreds of thousands of planets with life.  Even if there were that number of planets with life I would guess the chance that any developing our level of intelligence would be quite rare and even if they did there is no way of knowing that they would even have the capability of making technology.  Could a smart whale make a space ship?  We are very fortunate that we evolved with the body we have which allowed us to create technology the way we have.  Even with the body we have it took almost forever to get to the point where we are today.  Its only been about a hundred years that we have possessed any real tech!  So assuming that all intelligence life forms are listening to rap music, fly into space, send signals for others to hear or are listening for us is absurd.
Logged

The moment a person forms a theory, his imagination sees in every object only the traits which favor that theory

Thomas Jefferson
beyondthesidewalks
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 286


Location: Very rural Navarro County, TX

I need a shave


« Reply #65 on: April 07, 2012, 06:55:30 PM »

It is true that the earth is constantly producing new oil and natural gas.  I engineered communications for old well sites, abandoned in the 1940s and 50s, when it was discovered that they could flow again.  We've been bombarded with information leading us to believe that the earth's fossil resources are finite and that we are exhausting them but we continually find new underground reserves and constantly find old wells that can produce again with the aid of horizontal drilling and fraccing.

Everyone wants to have electric cars these days but they are a pipe dream.  They haven't been perfected.  They have limited range and ultimately, their fuel is electricity produced, mostly, by fossil fuel fired and nuclear plants.  Until solar panel technology gets to a point where we can put solar panels on the skin of the car and it can charge itself while parked or driving down the road, electric cars are getting us no where, much like the CFL light bulb.

Back to evolution, I have been very careful not to mention creationism as my argument against evolution.  I simply do not know how we all came to be.  It would be silly to argue the point because I do not know, neither does anyone on this thread because they weren't there either.  I am content in that.  I can go on not knowing for sure how mankind got here.  Anyone who has proposed a solution to the mystery has a belief, not based on fact but faith in a religion or science.  There is no doubt man has evolved since 1200AD.  I just cannot believe that we evolved from another species or the primodial ooze like proponents of the theory of evolution propose.

Scott, you are right.  That would be a great name for a band.
Logged
BlueBee
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4398

Location: Mid Michigan


« Reply #66 on: April 07, 2012, 08:20:36 PM »

So assuming that all intelligence life forms are listening to rap music, fly into space, send signals for others to hear or are listening for us is absurd.

I agree with you here Bee Nuts.  Any INTELLIGENT aliens will not be listening to rap music  Smiley
Logged
SEEYA
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 274

Location: USA

Poke a meek dog enough times.........!


« Reply #67 on: April 07, 2012, 08:44:20 PM »

I agree with you here Bee Nuts.  Any INTELLIGENT aliens will not be listening to rap music  Smiley
[/quote]
 applause
Remember the 60's: "Are there any intelligent life forms on Earth?"

IMHO zippelk has done nothing but enlighten. I have seen a lot of posts, mine included, that where more belligerent and insulting!

To paraphrase a movie I really enjoy: You might be descended from an ape, and you might even believe I am descended from an ape, show me ONE man who believes Robert E. Lee is descended from an Ape!
!!!!! 150 years ago: The battle of SHILOH was fought!!!!!!!!!!!     stay on topic sorry!
« Last Edit: April 08, 2012, 08:36:59 AM by ray » Logged

Live long and prosper!
Johnny253
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 92

Location: South Australia


« Reply #68 on: April 08, 2012, 10:32:24 AM »

"Dude, I'm not sure where you got your education, but you should ask for a refund.  grin Sorry. I don't think that a single thing you said is correct. But apparently you're in good company here.   evil  Best of luck."
[/quote]

Why should I ask for a refund? What are you implying? Why don't you think anything I said is correct?

You have confused natural selection with evolution and then argued that evidence for natural selection is evidence for evolution. This is a false argument.

I think "Best of luck" is a copout.

Where are the examples and proof for evolution?
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 01:37:06 AM by Johnny253 » Logged
Johnny253
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 92

Location: South Australia


« Reply #69 on: April 08, 2012, 11:29:46 AM »

>>The genetics of the bees resistant to varroa already existed. There is no new genetic information.
 Genes do mutate, does that not increase the genetic code?

In this example, mutation is not required for bees to become resistant to varroa. Bees already exist that are resistant to varroa, so it is simply a matter of selecting for those that are resistant.

To answer your question though, mutations do not usually increase the genetic code. They more commonly change the genetic code or reduce it. Most mutations are meaningless or harmful.

Mutations are real, observable and make changes in traits. They don't really help the evolutionary theory though due to the mathematical challenges, the fact that they usually go the wrong way (result in breakdown of genetic order) and point to creation (mutations are changes in genes that already exist).
Logged
kathyp
Universal Bee
*******
Online Online

Gender: Female
Posts: 15277


Location: boring, oregon


« Reply #70 on: April 08, 2012, 11:43:37 AM »

kind of a pointless argument, i think.  if you begin with the premise that there is no creator, whatever you call that creator, then you have to fashion and argument that explains mans progenitor...and what are you left with?  slime and stuff.  oh, and vague fussings about your tail bone and appendix.   grin

if you begin with the idea that there is a creator you don't have to tie yourself in knots trying to explain what the above can't figure out, or prove.

there is another component to this argument.  the study of anthropology includes the study of ancient religions.  there is no ancient civilization that i am aware of, that does not have a creation story.  it is interesting to me that for all the history of man, creation has been a given....until we have become "enlightened" and decided we have no need of god(s).  perhaps this explains their evil man? 
Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
beyondthesidewalks
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 286


Location: Very rural Navarro County, TX

I need a shave


« Reply #71 on: April 08, 2012, 11:54:47 AM »

Kathyp, I tend to agree with you.  The thread was about evolution, not necessarily evolution vs. creation, although there was no doubt that it would go there.  On its own merit the theory of evolution seems farfetched and very unlikely yet its proponents say the same about creation.  They have a real problem with detractors, kind of like living in glass houses and not tolerating stone throwers.  What this thread makes evident is that, for some, science has become a religion.  Christians put a fish on the back of their cars.  Evolutionists put a fish with legs and the letters DARWIN in the fish on the back of theirs.  They don't KNOW that evolution is how we got here but they believe it - have faith in it.  It's really become a religion unto itself, requiring faith of its proponents who will tell us something they don't know is a fact.
Logged
buzzbee
Ken
Administrator
Galactic Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 5495


Location: North Central PA


WWW
« Reply #72 on: April 08, 2012, 12:43:42 PM »

Quote:
Sorry. I don't think that a single thing you said is correct. But apparently you're in good company here. grin  Best of luck.

When speaking of other forum members,lines like this do not sit well with me. I know there are others that feel this way,but choose not to say anything.
However I do not speak for everyone else. But it sure seems like a belittling statement to the group as a whole.
Logged
Jim 134
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2280


Location: Hinsdale, New Hampshire 03451 USA


WWW
« Reply #73 on: April 08, 2012, 08:48:32 PM »


Dude, I'm not sure where you got your education, but you should ask for a refund.  grin Sorry. I don't think that a single thing you said is correct. But apparently you're in good company here.  evil  Best of luck.

zippelk................


  I must bee because you are here.


    BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
« Last Edit: April 08, 2012, 09:20:46 PM by Jim 134 » Logged

"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/
bee-nuts
Queen Bee
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1101


Location: Northwest Wisconsin


WWW
« Reply #74 on: April 08, 2012, 09:50:27 PM »

Well, however you want to explain the existence of life on this planet, we are here.  Unfortunately humans (other than myself) have not evolved enough intelligence yet to agree on how, and until then many will die because of their beliefs or the beliefs others in the matter.
Logged

The moment a person forms a theory, his imagination sees in every object only the traits which favor that theory

Thomas Jefferson
kathyp
Universal Bee
*******
Online Online

Gender: Female
Posts: 15277


Location: boring, oregon


« Reply #75 on: April 08, 2012, 11:04:54 PM »

Quote
Unfortunately humans (other than myself) have not evolved enough intelligence yet to agree on how, and until then many will die because of their beliefs or the beliefs others in the matter.

hardly think a discussion on evolution is enough to kill over!
Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
beyondthesidewalks
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 286


Location: Very rural Navarro County, TX

I need a shave


« Reply #76 on: April 08, 2012, 11:33:01 PM »

"Unfortunately humans (other than myself) have not evolved enough intelligence yet to agree on how, and until then many will die because of their beliefs or the beliefs others in the matter."

Huh?  Care to explain that?
Logged
BlueBee
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4398

Location: Mid Michigan


« Reply #77 on: April 09, 2012, 12:33:20 AM »

And I thought politics was a divisive topic!  It’s funny because I’m usually in the minority among beeks when we’re talking politics and economics.  It’s kind of nice to be on the same side as most the beeks for a change Smiley

I don’t really think this is a discussion that has gone off course into a “evolution” vs “creationism” debate.  I still see it as a debate on the legitimacy of the “theory of evolution”.  If one is really using the “scientific method” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method to support their opinion, then it CAN be tested.  If a scientific hypothesis can’t account for observed data, then it has to be rejected or refined if you are indeed using the scientific method.  Otherwise you are using religion, not science.

If one can show using basic math that DNA can’t form by random from the evolutionists pools of A,G,C,and T, then I have just punched a hole in the legitimacy of your whole hypothesis.  If you are using the Scientific method, then evolution has to be refined to fix this flaw, or thrown on the trash heap of history.  All that is required to invalidate an entire scientific theory is ONE instance where it fails.  Just ONE!

One instance of a perpetual motion machine would instantly make the 1st law of thermodynamics invalid.  That would be one of the strongest laws in all of physics, flushed down the tubes in an instant.  That’s the way people who are true to the scientific method analyze things.  It just takes ONE violation.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 12:44:21 AM by BlueBee » Logged
bee-nuts
Queen Bee
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1101


Location: Northwest Wisconsin


WWW
« Reply #78 on: April 10, 2012, 03:24:26 PM »

"hardly think a discussion on evolution is enough to kill over!"

Really! People are murdered because of what they believe or don't believe or what they preach or discuss all the time and have and will.  A discussion on evolution is absolutely enough to kill over and I bet I would not have to dig very far to find an example.

Huh?  Care to explain that?

"Well, however you want to explain the existence of life on this planet, we are here.  Unfortunately humans (other than myself) have not evolved enough intelligence yet to agree on how, and until then many will die because of their beliefs or the beliefs others in the matter."

"(other than myself)" is really just a joke.  What I mean is people as a whole will never agree, there will always be different religions, theory, ect, and people will tell others what to believe and preach adult fairy tales no different than telling children that Santa is coming. 

I agree that there is not proof of creation one way or the other and choose to just go with the facts that are there and dont go beyond that point.  I dont say there is a God, I dont say there is not.  I dont say a big bang created everything or that it did not.   What I say is, we are, we is, we aint, what we are what we is what we aint.  And I choose to evolve with that facts as they show them selves plain and simple, nothing more, nothing less.  I just wish others could evolve to do the same.
Logged

The moment a person forms a theory, his imagination sees in every object only the traits which favor that theory

Thomas Jefferson
kathyp
Universal Bee
*******
Online Online

Gender: Female
Posts: 15277


Location: boring, oregon


« Reply #79 on: April 10, 2012, 05:01:11 PM »

Quote
evolution is absolutely enough to kill over and I bet I would not have to dig very far to find an example.

do let us know what you find. 

Quote
people will tell others what to believe and preach adult fairy tales no different than telling children that Santa is coming. 


you do know that there was a St Nickolas?  often legend has it roots in fact.

Quote
And I choose to evolve with that facts as they show them selves plain and simple, nothing more, nothing less.  I just wish others could evolve to do the same.

it would be boring if all people took no position....is this only for evolution, or should we take no position on everything??  evil
Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Beemaster's Beekeeping Ring
Previous | Home | Join | Random | Next
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines | Sitemap Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.384 seconds with 22 queries.

Google visited last this page October 29, 2014, 04:24:04 AM