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The Bix
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« on: March 29, 2012, 12:13:30 AM »

ObamaCare: It's A Tough Sell


So funny that the liberals are throwing the poor guy under the bus, I do feel a little sorry for him because he did have quite the uphill slog.  Nobody knows who this guy is, he's been a good little liberal all his life and then suddenly he gets carpet-bombed by all of his fellow lefties and will never be invited to another cocktail party.

Maybe they should have had Pelosi present for the government.

Justice Scalia: "Madam Speaker, could you explain your comment, 'We have to pass the bill so you can find out what's in it'" 
Pelosi: "uhh, uhh" 5 gulps of water, followed by "uhh, uhh"

But seriously, it is somehow so extremely wrong that the future of our country is going to be held in the hands of just one man (Justice Kennedy).
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kathyp
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« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2012, 01:03:42 PM »

it should be an easy call, but it's not going to be.  there is no way to read the constitution and come to the conclusion that this is a constitutional law.  problem is, there are to many who either don't read it, or don't like it as it is written.  some of those people are supremes.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2012, 06:38:55 PM »

Are we going to see bee keepers dancing in the streets if Obamacare is struck down by the Supreme Court?  My guess is yes, you will be dancing and celebrating.  But what happens after that?  Did y’all think that far ahead?  The health care problem doesn’t magically go away the next day, the 50 million un-insured don’t vanish like voodoo, all the bankruptcies due to medical costs don’t disappear.  SOMEBODY will still have to pay the bills.  If the court says it’s unconstitutional to make people be responsible and pay for their health care insurance, then just who do you all think will end up paying?

If you guessed YOU, then BINGO, you are the winner! 

Is that really a better solution in your minds than making everybody pay for healthcare?  I thought personal responsibility was a conservative concept; guess I was wrong on that one too.  But I didn’t think the Republicans were in favor of subsidizing things (except for big oil of coarse) and yet if Obamacare gets struck down YOU are going to be subsidizing everybody else with higher premiums.  I see some logic failures in what you wish for!
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kathyp
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« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2012, 07:15:40 PM »

darlin, i love you, but i wonder if you really think through what you post.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
The Bix
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« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2012, 07:27:18 PM »

Bluebee and his liberal comrades have rose-colored glasses and all they see is government as the solution to everything that ails us (sorry).  The rest of us believe that government is the cancer that needs to be cut out.  That's is at the core of the big divide in this country.
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kathyp
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« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2012, 07:39:12 PM »

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Obamacare gets struck down YOU are going to be subsidizing everybody else with higher premiums

and if i am forced to pay for government approved insurance, i'm not going to be subsidizing the many more who won't be able to afford it and are forced into the exchange program?

the real number of long term uninsured is around 15 million.  many of those by choice.  some choose no insurance because they can afford to pay cash for what they need.  there are some who can't afford to self insure.
they came up with the 50 millionish by counting everyone who went without insurance for a period of time.  for instance, if i changed jobs and chose not to pay for insurance between one job and another, i would have been counted in the 50 million even if it was a matter of a few weeks. 

we have been through this before and you never answered the questions i asked, so i'm not inclined to have this conversation again.

personal responsibility doesn't mean government enforced responsibility.  it's like the difference between charity and welfare.

  the flip side of responsibility is consequences. 

one note:  i have been to the doc twice in the last 6 months.  because of obamacare, i paid NOTHING for the stuff i had done.  this includes two separate sets of some rather expensive tests.  you tell me....how is this going to keep cost down?  it's not.  it will 1. drive costs up and 2. cause the availability of services to be cut/rationed. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2012, 09:15:17 AM »

Let’s see, in sentence one you are complaining about Obamacare because you would have to subsidize many people who couldn’t afford it.  Then in sentence 2 you then claim the un-insured is no where as high as the reported 50 million.  Suggesting there really isn't that many uninsured people.  Once again, you’re giving us diametrically opposing statements here huh huh huh
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BlueBee
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« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2012, 09:17:50 AM »

This is the ironic thing: if Obamacare gets killed in the courts, then the only way the Dems will have left to implement a “universal” health care system is to make it a tax payer funded system.  There is no law that says they can’t tax us for new programs (at least no law the courts will strike down).  This is what you’ll eventually end up with if Obamacare is killed.  A tax payer funded system like medicare is bound to be more costly than Obamacare since the bills/costs are more hidden from the recipients.  Obamacare is actually more privatized, more Republican like, than many liberals would like. 

My green colored glasses (they see money flows) clearly show the current system is financially unsustainable and hence something new will arise at some point in time.  Ultimately your premiums will keep going through the roof until the costs are distributed over a wider group of people.  How you all fail to see this basic fact of economics is beyond me.  Hope you like paying more $$$ to keep government from regulating this industry.
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The Bix
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« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2012, 10:18:49 AM »

  Hope you like paying more $$$ to keep government from regulating this industry.
Wow, that statement is intellectually vacuous or intellectually dishonest...whichever, it doesn't look good for you.
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kathyp
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« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2012, 12:44:29 PM »

i think you probably ought to download and read the law. 

my statements are not opposed.  there are not as many chronically uninsured as have been reported.
  there will be fewer people with private insurance under obamacare, and those people will be forced into the government exchanges which we will pay for!


obama care was never to fix health care.  it is to destroy private insurance so that single payer can be implemented as a fix.  when is the last time you saw a complicated bill of a couple of thousand pages popped out of congress in just a few months?  and no one read it.  no debate was allowed.  that thing has been sitting around for a long time waiting for the time when libs could push it though.  they don't care what it says.  they only care what it does.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2012, 01:48:41 PM »

obama care was never to fix health care.  it is to destroy private insurance
I think you're wrong here.  The liberals DESIRED it to destroy wasteful private insurance, but we didn't have enough dems to get the public option through the system (this time).  We ended up with a bill that will in all likelyhood be a boon to the private insurance industry since everybody will have to buy their product is the law stands. 
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BlueBee
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« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2012, 01:51:33 PM »

OK ,since you are all clearly using different economics than I am, just what do you predict will happen to your health insurance rates if the current system persists?  Will your premiums go down while you’re subsidizing 50 million people who don’t pay anything for their hospital visits? 

Before you answer that question, you might want to look at this graph and realize that health care costs are rising far faster than CPI inflation (which by the way, bee keepers seem to believe is on the order or 10%).  There seems to be a disconnect between what you think is happening, and reality.

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kathyp
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« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2012, 02:02:57 PM »

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We ended up with a bill that will in all likelyhood be a boon to the private insurance industry since everybody will have to buy their product is the law stands.
 


no, they will not.  1st, choice in insurance is take away.  you must have a policy that the government approves of.  cost will be higher.  2nd. there is an option for business to pay a fine rather than pay for more expensive insurance.  if you are a small  business, it is smarter to pay the fine than provide more expensive government approved insurance.  even for individuals who choose not to be insured, the fine is cheaper. 

since the mechanism is not in place to collect the fine...yet, and because the businesses have already realized this, the admin granted wavers to many businesses.  they didn't want the cost, both in laid off employees and lost insurance, to hit the press so early. 

there are solutions to the cost of health care.  we have listed many for you before.  among them is not obama care or single payer.  both will drive cost up and care down. even if you did nothing, it is cheaper to pay for those who are uninsured by way of our own premiums, than to implement this system.

you think private insurance is wasteful.  i agree that it has some major problems.  there are no market forces in it.  we all have come to believe that someone else should pay for what we need/want.  if we really want accountability in health care cost, we need to be consumers of health care, not users of 3rd party insurance.

now....show me the government program that is not wasteful?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
kathyp
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« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2012, 02:12:28 PM »

the only county(s) that i can speak to with any real knowledge is the UK.  i can grantee that you would not want what they have for health care. i have no doubt that we spend more.  i also know that what i just had done either would not be available at all, or would have taken me months to get done....and lots of travel.

england has about 65 million people.  in order to provide care, they are rationing.  in addition, they have no money to update facilities and equipment.  wards, which we haven't seen here for decades are still the norm.  hospital born infections are growing.  communal bathrooms and eating are the norm.  diabetic care is about 20 years behind ours. 
so, sure, you can save money.....if you want to.....

 http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/oct/13/hospitals-lambasted-old-people

?  do your numbers take into account that those who work for NHS are government employees?  how does a country with 65 million people have an NHS that is the 3rd largest employer in the world??
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2012, 08:30:59 AM »

Folks, it is obvious not one of you works or worked in the medical field.  People have always received the care they need.  Hospitals won't treat toothaches, but will treat someone septic from a tooth abcess.  Why?  Well not all toothaches become an abcess, which can go systemic and kill. 

As a Paramedic, countess times I took folks to the hospital who had transportation, no funds, but thought by using the ambulance they would get preferential treatment.  But the hospitals turf that crap. 

The whole point as I digressed a little is that we have been paying for this type of medical care since at least 1989 that I am aware of.  Hospitals write that crap off.  They need it to save their profits. Those that really need medical care get it....for example the person cooking meth that gets a 70% major body burn but doesn't die.  That stuff we have been paying for for years, years.  The obamacare is less about healthcare than government control in my opinion.  (and pork necessary to get the passage votes)

Forcing small business to carry health insurance is death to small business. Costs of good will have to rise.  This is one reason the recovery has been so slow.  Smart business people waiting to see, as it could make the difference between staying open and closing doors. 
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2012, 04:35:51 AM »

Outlaw any kind of insurance and you will straighten this out almost overnight.  Third part payers are the cause of the attitude that it doesn't matter what it costs.  If people had to pay for what they get they would consider it far more carefully and doctors wouldn't wast money on needless tests whose only purpose is to avoid getting sued, which only happens because there is malpractice insurance.  Insurance is the root of all evil and it begats lawyers... and out of control costs because people are no longer responsible for the costs.

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Michael Bush
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iddee
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« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2012, 06:42:20 AM »

 applause applause applause cheer

MB hit the nail on the head with that one.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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JackM
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« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2012, 08:55:32 AM »

Nope, lawyers begat insurance
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The Bix
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« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2012, 01:58:23 PM »

If people had to pay for what they get they would consider it far more carefully 

You are quite correct Michael...AND...nobody has yet hit on the point that the government (before Obamacare) is taxing us in a hidden manner.  We directly pay Medicare tax...us self-employed folks know this quite well.  But the government's "reimbursements" to the providers in most cases do not cover the cost of the services.  It is far, far worse for Medicaid, which, at best, covers 60% of the costs.  The rest of the money has to come from everyone else with inflated prices.  The government has jacked up the healthcare system long ago.  It is completely unconstitutional, but setting that aside, why do we want to give government bureaucrats increasing power over our lives with Obamacare when the track record is so abysmal?

So....

1) Make people shop around for healthcare services and force them to pay attention to how much the services they receive actually cost.

2) Get the government out of healthcare, period.



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kathyp
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« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2012, 02:53:54 PM »

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It is far, far worse for Medicaid, which, at best, covers 60% of the costs.

and then there is the stuff we pay for that we can't really quantify.  these are the patients who over use the medical system, show up late, or don't show up at all.  they will still go to the ER if they can't get the appointment they want, when they want it.
  if i miss an appointment, i get charge at least my co-pay.  if they don't show up, they get charged nothing.  the slot they would have had, sits vacant, but the staff is all there....being paid for not seeing the patient.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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