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Author Topic: Bailing out France  (Read 7619 times)
kathyp
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« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2012, 12:36:33 PM »

it's true that we are broke.  so, is your solution the RP solution that we have no troops stationed overseas? 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #21 on: March 14, 2012, 12:56:20 AM »

US trade deficit for 2011: http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/

South Korea: -13 billion
Japan:  -62 billion
Germany:  -49 billion

Do YOU spend more than you make?  Do YOU get free police service?

If these rich countries need our world police services, then make THEM pay for the troops.  As I mentioned we are BROKE.  B-R-O-K-E!!!  15 TRILLION BROKE!
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The Bix
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« Reply #22 on: March 14, 2012, 08:47:21 AM »

Blue,

Thanks for the compliment on my new avatar.  

Those are compelling numbers and you make a good point.  I would also like for you to tell us how much money we've spent on the Great Society and the War on poverty programs and give an honest examination of the results.

--Bix
« Last Edit: March 14, 2012, 10:31:08 AM by The Bix » Logged
BlueBee
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« Reply #23 on: March 14, 2012, 12:20:35 PM »

Bix, my calculator only has 10 digits grin  Mine isn’t supersized like the Treasury’s.

As I’ve said before, we’re broke, Broke, BROKE.  Responsible people COMPROMISE to across the board cuts in these circumstances.  Yes, that includes social programs.  The problem is compromise isn’t in the Republicans lexicon.  They’re still stuck on just saying no, no, NO.  Well, except for the stuff they want and then they say yes, yes, YES!

I’m for being fiscally responsible; don't spend more than we have.  Some might even call that a “conservative” view.  My difference with the Republicans is how our little amount of money should be spent.  I believe in investing in Americans that live in America is a better use of our limited funds.
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The Bix
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« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2012, 12:52:11 PM »

Anyone out there know how much we've spent on the War on Poverty?  Anyone?  I honestly don't know.
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kathyp
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« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2012, 01:38:46 PM »

i usually don't try to explain military stuff to civilians because it's not worth it.  let me try this:  understanding that a vacuum of power can't exist; therefor what we don't do, someone else will....is there and advantage to our own security to be able to  project power?

for instance, if we are to protect shipping, we need ships at sea.  ships need ports.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2012, 03:39:27 PM »

LOL, it sounds like you’re jumping up on somebody else’s high horse now  lau

We “civilians” are just too dumb are we?  Now that DOES sound very Republican like.  Y’all know what is best for everybody.  Right.....  The rest of us are just uneducated lackeys no matter how many college degrees or skills we have?  

As for your poor argument for a world police force, it doesn’t hold water either.  Does China police the world for free?  They’ve amassed a HUGE trade surplus with the rest of the world without a police force across the world.  Meanwhile we're 15 trillion BROKE.  Seems the Republicans might really benefit a little from Econ 101.  Time to learn that Voodo really doesn't work.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2012, 03:50:25 PM by BlueBee » Logged
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« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2012, 03:47:52 PM »

BTW…No I am NOT anti military.  I have no problem with spending money on defense of the country, it’s the FREE policing of the world and I don’t agree with.   I also don't agree with wasting 2 billion dollars a WEEK in Afganistan in an un-winnable war.  That's 4 solyndra's EVERY WEEK plus US lives lost in a pointless battle.  Not a big fan of spending $800 for toilet seats, hammers, and other overbilling either.
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kathyp
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« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2012, 04:37:00 PM »

it's not about being smart or dumb.  there was a time when almost everyone knew someone in the military.  that time is past.  trying to talk military matters to civilians is like trying to explain a foreign culture.  it's just something i have learned to stay away from....most of the time.


 
Quote
They’ve amassed a HUGE trade surplus with the rest of the world without a police force across the world.


they have.  they are the most likely candidate to step in and take up any "policing" slack that we leave.  Russia is the next best candidate.  both countries have the military and the desire.  

there are many things we could do differently.  NATO is a huge drain on us.  one of the reasons that the Europeans have been able to have such expansive social welfare programs is that they have depended on NATO, which we pay most for, as protection.  there are bases in Germany that are not necessary to our national interests, while bases in italy are.  we shut down subic bay, but kept japan.  

to be honest, i don't count temporary war cost in the things that are running us broke long term.  they don't help, but they are a small thing compared to the ever expanding bureaucracy and social welfare programs.  those are the things that will destroy us because once done, undoing them is next to impossible. if you are really worried about the budget, look to what the government is implementing for the long term.  with these programs we go from broke to broker...check Greece.

BTW...we do not pick up the entire cost of our policing.  s. korea picks up about 1/2 the cost.  japan is picking up most of the cost of moving our marines to their country, bases are usually paid for, for the most part, by the host country, etc.
if we had been really smart (less inept?) we would have built a nice base in Iraq and been the heck out of Afghanistan long ago.  we do have a strategic interest in the area and iraq was the perfect place to stay.  
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2012, 04:56:36 PM »

it's not about being smart or dumb.  there was a time when almost everyone knew someone in the military.  that time is past.  trying to talk military matters to civilians is like trying to explain a foreign culture.  
No I’m not in the military, but I registered with the selective service like all good citizens are supposed to.  I’ve got relatives who are in the military and fought in many of the wars we’ve had in the past 80 years.  BTW, there has been a LOT.  I’ve got a 96 year old uncle who flew gliders into France in WW2.  We “civilians” really don’t need to be preached too to appreciate military matters.    

to be honest, i don't count temporary war cost in the things that are running us broke long term.  
“Not counting” is the problem!  When you’re broke, you’re broke.  You have to count everything and cut everything.  Everything should be on the table.

if we had been really smart (less inept?) we would have built a nice base in Iraq and been the heck out of Afghanistan long ago.  we do have a strategic interest in the area and iraq was the perfect place to stay.  
I hate to say it, but I do tend to agree with you here. Smiley
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kathyp
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« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2012, 08:21:21 PM »

i have plumbing in my house, but it doesn't make me a plumber.  i don't expect a plumber to explain the fine points of pipe repair.  i don't really want him to.  i'm sure it would be boring for both of us. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2012, 08:31:36 PM »

I think this is another difference in our thinking patterns  grin

If I have a plumbing problem I want to know EXACTLY what they intend to do and get a good sense of how much it is going to COST.  Do you just write a blank check to the plumber and tell them to fill it in once they're done?
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kathyp
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« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2012, 10:15:27 PM »

you do know that you take some leaps into areas not even implied?  Wink
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #33 on: March 14, 2012, 10:50:40 PM »

Just applying a little logic to what people say   Smiley
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The Bix
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« Reply #34 on: March 14, 2012, 11:52:23 PM »

Responsible people COMPROMISE to across the board cuts in these circumstances.  Yes, that includes social programs.  The problem is compromise isn’t in the Republicans lexicon.  They’re still stuck on just saying no, no, NO.  Well, except for the stuff they want and then they say yes, yes, YES!

Blue, you are so right.  Let's reelect Obama, and all of his Democrat and labor union buddies.  They are all such upstanding American citizens...pure as the wind driven snow (minus the dust molecules that the snowflake crystals get formed on), they understand and believe in compromise, really know what it means to be a public servant and have a real lock on how to responsibly spend the taxpayers' money.  I'm certain they've all taken and passed Econ 101 with flying colors.  And what's more, they have such compassion for all of us and want to take care of us and look out for our best interests....man, this has been a revelation...thanks so much. Wink

Oh and still waiting for someone to tell me how much of the taxpayers' money has been spent in the WAR on poverty.
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kathyp
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« Reply #35 on: March 15, 2012, 12:01:20 AM »

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They’re still stuck on just saying no, no, NO.


i was still waiting for an answer to what they are saying no to that he thinks will make a difference in the debt.  surely it won't be raising taxes.  no sensible person would give someone with a spending problem, more money to spend.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #36 on: March 15, 2012, 01:09:12 AM »

I’m feeling a little déjà vu huh  Haven’t we already discussed that you can’t make a 15 trillion debt magically disappear by not paying for it?  You can’t bury your head in the sand and hope all the problems disappear.  It just doesn’t work that way, sorry.

I saw a couple of these little hot wheels going down the road yesterday



Is this more of the advanced European automotive technology we hear about? 

The EU testing rates the 999 cc Smart at 50 mpg for the gasoline model and 69 mpg for the diesel.  The USA EPA rates the vehicle at 36 mpg combined.  As I’ve been trying to convince my fellow beeks, the numbers of old were bogus and Europe is not even close to American Automotive technology  grin
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The Bix
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« Reply #37 on: March 15, 2012, 09:31:36 AM »

Looks like SUV chum to me.  I wouldn't let my daughters drive one of those things, no way.
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kathyp
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« Reply #38 on: March 15, 2012, 10:17:11 AM »

Quote
Haven’t we already discussed that you can’t make a 15 trillion debt magically disappear by not paying for it?

you are absolutely right. 

it's always good to bring these things down to ground level, i think.  easier for me, anyway.

i don't know if you have kids.  you might relate to this if you do. 

you have a son.  you give your son an allowance of 10 dollars a week.  he dates, puts gas in his car, chats on his computer and plays games, and subscribes to a couple of MMORPG.  he's generous, so he's easy with his money around his friends. 

a couple of months your son runs short of money and asks for an advance on his allowance.  you give it to him.  his car needs work and you loan him the money.  the school dance comes up and he has a hot date, you help him out with the expenses.  by the end of the year, you realize that your son is in debt to you by so much that his allowance for a year wouldn't cover it. 

the next time your son comes to you for money,  you ask to see his budget.  he doesn't have one.  you ask to see his spending report and he kind of has one....and from what you can see, he's come to you for money without ever adjusting his spending.  why should he?  you have been there to help him out. 

what does the wise father do before giving his son more money?  i think he makes sure the son stops spending before he gives another dime.  if he continues to fork over money,or he raises the allowance, the son takes the lesson that there is an endless source of money and he never learns to make choices.

and so i ask again....why should anyone pay one cent more in taxes when our government is like our free spending son? no budget, no plan to cut, in fact a plan to spend even more.  our government does not have a revenue problem.  it has a spending problem.......and some say a lack of leadership, but i think this is not true.  we have leadership that is the progressives wet dream.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #39 on: March 15, 2012, 02:54:47 PM »

Looks like SUV chum to me.  I wouldn't let my daughters drive one of those things, no way.

I agree with you Bix.  Yellow Chum!  However we are probably looking at our future Sad  Obama raised the CAFÉ law for cars sold in the US to 54.5 mpg by 2025.  You don’t get to those numbers without a lot of very small cars.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_Average_Fuel_Economy  (Actually I guess it isn’t a “law”, but an "agreement").

I wonder if we could somehow adapt your rocket technology to cars?
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