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Author Topic: Bailing out France  (Read 7436 times)
BlueBee
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« on: March 09, 2012, 11:46:18 AM »

I’m sure the anti American car crowd will love this one.  The company we are part owners in (General Motors) is bailing out Frances Peugeot auto company to the tune of 400 million!  As the article says, a day after the deal was announced the credit rating for Peugeot was downgraded to junk status.  Oh, don’t we just love those Wall Street Credit agencies…..

Why on earth GM is investing in a French automaker is beyond me.  This cover story that it is “to gain access to Peugeots expertise in small car and hybrid tech” is laughable.  I seem to recall GM lost some 2 billion in some deal gone sour with another “small car expert” in Europe about 10 years ago.  Seems the CEOs never learn; but their pay checks keep getting bigger and bigger. 

http://news.yahoo.com/american-auto-bailout-france-100824412--abc-news.html
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BlueBee
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« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2012, 11:54:24 AM »

Speaking of bailouts, is the Fisker car company going to make it?  They sold 1 car to the Bieber! 

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The Bix
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« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2012, 12:34:15 PM »

BB,

Perhaps you should consider the fact that the ownership of GM has something to say about how the company is run instead of solely fingering those evil, big-cigar CEOs.

Not sure where the ownership currently stands, but the last I checked, GM is owned by:

United States Department of the Treasury (61%)
United Auto Workers Union Voluntary Employee Beneficiary Association (17.5%)
Canada Development Investment Corporation (7.9%)
Government of Ontario (3.8%)
Bond holders of Motors Liquidation Company (9.8%)

If these numbers are still accurate, now who's fault is it?
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BlueBee
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« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2012, 01:34:37 PM »

OK, I suppose I should have been more precise:  board of directors AND the CEO. 

Day to day operations in public companies is not controlled by stock holders.  How often do the CEOs meet with the “shareholders”?  Maybe once or twice a year.  When is the last time a company asked any of YOU for approval in making day to day decisions in a company stock you own? 

This argument that GM ownership is to blame is like claiming the shareholders is what drove Enron in the ground!  Those good hearted execs at Enron would never do anything without the shareholders blessings!
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The Bix
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« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2012, 01:45:34 PM »

Fatal flaw in your argument as it relates to GM is that there is a decentralized group of shareholders...not so.  If Turbo Tax Timmy was to call the GM CEO, he would answer the phone and say "Yes sir, Mr. Secretary, what can I do for you today?"

Enron is not an apples to apples comparison as I believe they did have a decentralized shareholder base...certainly the shareholders of Enron are not to blame for what befell that company.

GM is for all practical purposes a closely-held corporation...the majority shareholders of closely held corporations have immense power.

So why do you suppose the shareholders of GM want to bail out Peugeot?
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BlueBee
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« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2012, 02:00:03 PM »

I'm going to have to agree with you there bix.  The ownership in GM is still pretty concentrated by just few groups as you correctly pointed out.  In this case, I might conceed the "ownership" probably did buy into the deal too.  Why, I have no idea! 
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The Bix
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« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2012, 03:07:04 PM »

Well it certainly doesn't make business sense....hmmm what does that leave?
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2012, 12:34:02 AM »

>“to gain access to Peugeots expertise in small car and hybrid tech”

We drove a Peugeot all over Europe.  Seemed like you fill the tank up and drive for a month... I never measured the gas mileage, but I'm sure it was astronomical compared to US cars.  It has always been a mystery to me how poor US technology is in this field...

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Michael Bush
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« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2012, 06:33:57 AM »

Didn't the Obama administration fire the CEO of GM during the takeover and put someone in his place? Well,forced him to resign anyways.
So I guess the fat cat at the top now is of the administrations choosing. A bureaucrat paid indirectly  with taxpayer funds.

On the Fisker, I think Consumer Reports purchased one direct from a showroom,not a media prepped car, and it broke down and needed to be towed from the driveway.
http://www.slashgear.com/fisker-karma-breaks-down-in-consumer-reports-testing-09217763/

There's your tax dollars at work folks!!
http://dailycristo.com/politics/green-car-built-overseas-tax-dollars-green/

 The people have to remember,the government has no money at all. It is your money they are spending.They have spent my parents money,my money and our kids money. Now they are after your grand childrens money.
People are foolish to continue to  give it to them.They are good at letting you think they are investing government money on this waste,But it is our money they spend. The government runs on what we send them.Plus what we have allowed them to borrow and confiscate from others.

OPM is how they survive,thats Other People Money
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BlueBee
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« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2012, 06:59:20 AM »

BuzzBee, they’re spending your grandkids money to the tune of 2 billion a week in Afghanistan.  That’s 4 Solyndra’s a week down to tubes!   Few seem to be complaining about that though  huh

If they’re going to spend our money (and they always will), I would rather have them INVEST in American jobs and technology IN America.
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BlueBee
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« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2012, 07:11:11 AM »

We drove a Peugeot all over Europe.  Seemed like you fill the tank up and drive for a month... I never measured the gas mileage, but I'm sure it was astronomical compared to US cars.

Mystery solved:  It’s called high compression diesel + SMALL body.
http://www.topgear.com/uk/peugeot/207/specs
Note:  diesels get the 50 to 60mpg while the gasoline versions of these matchbox cars only get 30mpg.

For various reasons, including carcinogenic particulate emissions from diesels, they have not gained wide spread acceptance here.  To get to Obama’s new CAFÉ requirements, you will see these here in the future.
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kathyp
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« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2012, 09:31:16 AM »

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grandkids money to the tune of 2 billion a week in Afghanistan.

when the senate had the chance this week to vote on dumping the redundant programs identified by the GAO, the chose not to.  you do know who runs the senate?  some of the programs needing to be cut were in the defense dept.

i'll be the first to tell you that we should have been out of Afghanistan long ago, but wars....even long ones, are temporary.  congressional spending on foolish crap, is eternal and ever expanding. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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BlueBee
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« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2012, 11:10:26 AM »

i'll be the first to tell you that we should have been out of Afghanistan long ago, but wars....even long ones, are temporary.  congressional spending on foolish crap, is eternal and ever expanding. 
I imagine we'll be pulling out of Japan, Germany, Korea any day now  rolleyes
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indypartridge
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« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2012, 06:40:07 AM »

Why on earth GM is investing in a French automaker is beyond me. 
Because their investment in Saab went so well...
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BlueBee
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« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2012, 12:11:33 AM »

Good point Indy!  I was thinking of their investment disaster in Fiat in the late 90s.  Lately Opel has also been a huge drag on earnings.  The point is, GM has been in Europe in one way or another for decades.  They've been making small cars with high MPG diesels over there for decades.  This is why it is so baffling they would now buy into some French Automaker.  I highly doubt there is anything the French engineers know that the Germans haven't already invented  grin
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BlueBee
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« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2012, 12:24:04 AM »

Isn’t this the latest and greatest French Automotive Technology?  A car that runs on hot air

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6138972/ns/us_news-environment/t/car-runs-compressed-air-will-it-sell/



These little babies make a Ford Fiesta look like a Hummer.  I wonder if they get as good of mpg as those magical 1960 VW beetles we hear about?  
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kathyp
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« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2012, 10:08:57 AM »

Quote
I imagine we'll be pulling out of Japan, Germany, Korea any day now  


well, lets see....i was in germany a few years ago, and saw no war.  was in japan last year, and no war.  my niece lives in S. korea, and no war....

i think you and i define war differently.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
BlueBee
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« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2012, 11:38:07 AM »

I think you and I define policing the world differently Smiley  

I wasn’t aware all our troops have left these places.  Those must be imaginary US soldiers we hear about on the DMZ.  Thanks for elucidating that.
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kathyp
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« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2012, 11:42:16 AM »

but we were talking about war, not the place we have troops.  you might not know the difference, but war is about killing people and breaking things.  being stationed in Japan is about eating really good sushi.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
BlueBee
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« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2012, 11:56:47 AM »

being stationed in Japan is about eating really good sushi.

And spending lots and lots of US tax payers dollars.  BTW, we are broke  Sad
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