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Author Topic: Wind Farm paid not to produce  (Read 2095 times)
buzzbee
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« on: March 08, 2012, 07:05:10 PM »

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2012/03/wind_farms_paid_with_taxpayer_money_not_to_produce_electricity.html
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BlueBee
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« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2012, 07:51:02 PM »

This is another reason why deflation is bad!  When prices drop, we seem to always end up subsidizing somebody:  Farmers, Oil drillers, wind farms, bankers, etc.  And some beeks think electricity prices are going through the roof  huh

I completely agree with the article; it is ridiculous to subsidize dumb investments by the 1%er, like the wind mills (and solar cells).  When those guys make a bad bet, they should get just as much compensation for losses as I get when I make bad bets and loose money: which is $0.  As usual the system to rigged so they never lose money; I’m sure that was in the fine print of the contract  evil

Even Boone Pickens didn’t expect Natural Gas prices to implode like they have done.  Really nobody predicted such a huge drop in NG prices.  That alone puts the kibosh on all other power sources for generating electricity.  Now if somebody can only get the stuff to power our cars and trucks in an efficient manner we'll be on easy street for while  Smiley  
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luvin honey
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« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2012, 07:56:09 PM »

This is exactly how crop subsidies originated.
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« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2012, 08:02:00 PM »

That a county. Just my $0.02



    BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
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« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2012, 08:17:40 PM »

How much longer before I will get paid not to work?   
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« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2012, 08:20:39 PM »

Allen are you a 1%er?

If yes, your check is in the mail

If no, go hit the bricks and be "responsible"  grin
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luvin honey
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« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2012, 08:24:53 PM »

I don't understand all of this, but I'm assuming that there was not enough storage capacity, so everything was "working" but had no way to store the excess electricity?
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buzzbee
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« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2012, 10:12:30 PM »

The only way to store Alternating Current electricity is to store the energy source that produces it. Green energy like wind and solar are totally dependent on the wind blowing and the sun shining. No way to store them so they must be used when present. Water is able to be stored for times when it isn't raining.
But the enviromentalists worry too much water through the dams turbines kill too many fish,but also now say to much water over the spillway will over oxygenate the water,potentially harming the fish. However we also know raging torrents without the dams will stir up silts that harm fish.
It has more to do with the dams and making them pay than it does with excess energy.
If the power grid in this country were to be updated,perhaps the excess energy could have been transported a further distance and sold to users ,rather than charge the Northwest consumers for their excess production.
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luvin honey
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« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2012, 10:20:47 PM »

I thought perhaps it could be stored in batteries...
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« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2012, 10:57:32 PM »

Electrical power can be stored away as potential energy behind a dam by pumping water in reverse.  When more electrical power is needed in the future, that potential energy can be recovered by flowing that water down through the darn and spinning a generator.  However in general, as Buzz says, it's not practical to store electrical energy.

I saw on Modern Marvels (TV show) that some power company in Alaska does have a massive battery bank to store some electrical energy, but the sad fact is Batteries don’t hold squat for power.  This is why electric cars aren’t taking over anytime soon.  DC batteries can provide AC power via an inverter.

The Northwest did attract some of the Aluminum reducers from the Ohio Valley / Pittsburgh area to take advantage of their excess electrical capacity.  Making Aluminum consumes massive amounts of electric energy.  However after Enron created that fake energy crises on the west coast, the AL companies may have just packed up and moved to China.
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kathyp
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« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2012, 10:59:38 PM »

eat the fish.  make the power.  water we have plenty of.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2012, 11:01:09 PM »

we also got some server farms because they require lots of power.  they built close to the Bonneville dam.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2012, 11:27:12 PM »

>How much longer before I will get paid not to work?   

I think a lot of people already are...

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Michael Bush
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« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2012, 08:07:51 AM »

ya too many paid to work or to look for jobs online only.

The wind farms are close to me.  The dams for some reason get priority, which makes no sense as they have stored power as in the water held back.  But the Columbia is a big river.  A shame to see those majestic windmills sit idled.  But it only seems to occur in the spring of big runoff years.

Frankly, they should put in a huge offshore setup, the wind never stops out there.

Part of the problem is the power grid is not able to disperse all the power when the wind is blowing and the water is running high.  Meanwhile Phoenix is getting brown outs from air conditioner use.
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« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2012, 08:32:36 PM »

It’s a long ways from Washington State to Phoenix! 

Every inch that electrical current travels over a wire, you waste power due to Ohmic heating of the wires.  This is why Edison’s DC power system failed and why Telsa’s AC power system (via Westinghouse) took over the world. 

With AC power you can easily step up the voltage to cut down on current flows over the transmission wires.  This allows for longer distance xfer of power without excessive Ohmic losses.  However even with AC you STILL waste power over the transmission lines!  This is combated by going to higher and higher voltages, but there is STILL a limit to how far you can transmit electrical power over wires.

You can’t put windmills in Timbuktu and hope to power homes in Kalamazoo.   
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kingbee
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« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2012, 09:46:18 PM »

... Even Boone Pickens didn’t expect Natural Gas prices to implode like they have done... 

I think he saw it coming and since Pickens owns so much natural gas production potential he was trying to get out in front of the problem by jazzing up demand for his product.  The same thing would happen to gasoline prices with Obama out of the way.
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« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2012, 09:53:00 PM »

I had been thinking ever since I heard that natural gas prices were going way low due to production, that T. Boone was saving his bacon by trying to get more people burning it.    He knew it was coming and he was looking for more market to sell to.
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« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2012, 10:30:10 PM »

'We tinks a like'  sic
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« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2012, 11:47:28 PM »

Pickens lost his proverbial shirt betting on windmills.  Luckily he’s a billionaire and can afford to lose a few hundred million here and there.  As the OP suggests, the government almost always make sure the big guys don’t lose money and hence subsidize them with us poor tax payers when things don’t play out as they hoped. 

Pickens started up a company to build natural gas filling stations across the country to refuel the trucker’s big rigs.  I won’t plug the name or the stock since it looks way overvalued to me, but then again so does Apple stock.  Since the big trucks use so much fuel, it makes strong economic sense for them to scrap their diesel engines and switch over to CNG, or a CNG + Diesel hybrid.  The business model looks like a good idea at this point, but who knows what tomorrow will bring!  We can’t have Chesapeake energy and all their stock options going belly up either so there will be lots of forces trying to open up LNG plants for NG exports.  Prices don’t go up here until a lot of excess supply is removed from the market.   
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kingbee
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« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2012, 04:47:07 PM »

... Pickens lost his proverbial shirt betting on windmills.  ...Pickens started up a company to build natural gas filling stations across the country to refuel the trucker’s big rigs... Since the big trucks use so much fuel, it makes strong economic sense for them to scrap their diesel engines and switch over to CNG, or a CNG + Diesel hybrid....

There is only one dinosaur in Pickens’ NG ointment but it’s a biggy.  That stumbling block is that LNG is not a  robust fuel on either a volume or on a per weight basis compared to diesel oil..  That means that huge new and did I mention HEAVY fuel tanks will be needed to hold more (highly pressurized) liquid natural gas.  Furthermore larger engine displacements will be required to wring the same amount of work from an increased amount of fuel. This results in a decrease in the net cargo weight that can be hauled by big rigs.  Don’t plan on raising truck weight limits either.  The geriatric RV owners and their seeing eye dogs will howl Bloody Murder at any bill in Congress that will increase allowable truck weights on the same interstates where  RVs operate .   The up side is that natural gas powered commercial transportation is a job creator.  The reason being all the new Slow Truck Lanes that will need to be gouged out of existing Interstate right-of-ways. 

When it absolutely, positively, has to be there on time… better not ship it LNG.
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kingbee
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« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2012, 05:23:52 PM »

... there will be lots of forces trying to open up LNG plants for NG exports.…

Maybe not as many as you may imagine.  The Georgia Goober Grubber made a deal in 1978 I think it was with the Sierra Club.  This deal gave the Sierra Club (they say the final) option of approving or denying any new or increased LNG facility on the East Coast.  At the present this deal is being tested in Maryland over plans to increase the size of a little used LNG IMPORT facility in Maryland and convert it into a large LNG EXPORT facility. 

Did any of you know that the Sierra Club is one of the Federal Government's regulatory apparatuses?

Do you understand now why the good jobs are leaving America?

This idea of “where” the jobs went is a racist red heron dragged through the dirt by environmentalist to avert our attention from the rancid scent of “why” these jobs are no longer here.  Find out “why” the jobs went where they ended up if you are looking for the right someone to blame or if you wish to change the failed policies and get these jobs back in America where they belong.    The choice is yours!  Chose wisely.
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« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2012, 07:25:03 PM »

I agree with you kingbee; natural gas is not a great fuel source for transportation.  This is why Detroit is not behind the idea; but a Texas oil man is!  Detroit has done the engineering work on CNG vehicles for decades and knows of all the problems.  If NG for IC engines was simple, it would have been done long ago. 

That said, Pickens diesel to CNG plan does make some economic sense since most of the cost of running a big rig is the fuel.   I haven’t seen any drawings of Boone’a CNG truck cabs, but I recall him saying they would put tanks on the cab to hold the CNG and make the cabs more areodynamic at the same time.  Modern CNG tanks are wrapped in carbon fiber to hold the pressure and are relatively light; but you are right they still need to be BIG.  There is a company in the pacific northwest that supposedly has a bunch of patents on injecting CNG into a diesel to power a conventional diesel engine as a hybrid to help compromise on tank size vs range. 

There are already people running medium duty and heavier trucks on CNG, it can be done.

I tend to agree with you about LNG exports.  The elite that live on the coasts will reject anything that obstructs their view.  We’ve seen that time and time again off Cape Cod.  However big oil will get around many of those problems by exporting through Canada.     
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kingbee
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« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2012, 01:18:32 PM »

You are correct Blue Bee.  Compressed Natural Gas as well as Liquefied Petroleum Gas have both been used for generations to power some medium duty trucks.  The City of Florence, Alabama I think it was snagged a Carter era grant to convert their garbage dump into a CNG fueling station for police cars.  The LP gas industry has burned LPG for years to deliver LPG to the Propane tanks of chicken houses for heating, silos for grain drying, and rural households for uses of every kind.

The reason CNG and LNG are in the news as a motor fuel is the almost non polluting nature of this fuel.  That is why there are so many gas turbine power plants being built nowadays.  The "sorta of" GREEN environmentalists love NG because of the nonpolluting nature of this gas.  The lunatic fringe of the GREEN movement however is bound and determined to banish every form of artificial lighting from bees wax candles to nuclear reactors.  If the lunatics win, the next time your children ask for a new computer made in China, you'll be buying an abacus.
But the cleanest or the least air polluting form of home lighting fuel is whale oil.  Go figure. 

One side issue on home lighting:
"In 1885, John D. Rockefeller wrote one of his partners, “Let the good work go on. We must ever remember we are refining oil for the poor man and he must have it cheap and good.” Or as he put it to another partner: “Hope we can continue to hold out with the best illuminator in the world at the lowest price.”

Even after 20 years in the oil business, “the best . . . at the lowest price” was still Rockefeller’s goal; his Standard Oil Company had already captured 90 per cent of America’s oil refining and had pushed the price down from 58 cents to eight cents a gallon. His well-groomed horses delivered blue barrels of oil throughout America’s cities and were already symbols of excellence and efficiency. Consumers were not only choosing Standard Oil over that of his competitors; they were also preferring it to coal oil, whale oil, and electricity. Millions of Americans illuminated their homes with Standard Oil for one cent per hour; in doing so, they made Rockefeller the wealthiest man in American history."
http://www.thefreemanonline.org/columns/john-d-rockefeller-and-the-oil-industry/

Folks, greed and envy is certainly involved in the oil business, as certainly as greed and envy is involved in the higher education lobby or in beekeeping.  The trick is figuring out who are the envious ones and who are the greedy ones.  However it seems all to often that they are one in the same.

http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/doe01
I am not a big conspiracy buff.  But before any of you buy into the bleep an bull story about oil, now coming out of Washington, read a little history.   I am of the opinion that there is much more recoverable oil, and at a much lower price than Washington is willing to acknowledge.  Anyway DC is the largest holder and beneficiary of oil wealth in the USA so it is in my and in your Uncle Sam's long term intrest to extract the highest price for this oil while at the same time extracting the smallest amount of oil.  In 1930 Texas oil was $1.10 a barrel.  By 1931 the governors of Texas and Oklahoma were forced to use their National Guards to seize the oil fields in their states in an attempt to RAISE crude oil prices from $.10 (yes that is ten cents a barrel) oil finally settled at $.40 per barrel.
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« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2012, 11:15:57 PM »

Opps I read that wrong so I'm retracting my previous bytes  Smiley
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