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Author Topic: Volt-less  (Read 4062 times)
BjornBee
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« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2012, 12:40:35 PM »

The government and the car industry wants you to think that building a car today, and everything under the hood has to do with safety and milage. It does not.

Much of the statistics in the lowering of car deaths can be directly attributed to a couple thing like air bags and mandatory seat belt use. The redesigning of targeted high crash area roads also come into play. In my area, four places (The Dauphin bypass north of Harrisburg, the Lewisburg narrows on 322 going to State College, route 15 north of Harrisburg, and the 83 loop south of York) have made HUGE impacts in car crashes. You can probably add in efforts to lower drinking and driving over the past 40 years also.

But it is the car industry, many times that suggests they are to be credited. And yes, we no longer build corsairs. but have you seen the massive damage with today's cars with basic 15 mile per hour bumper crash tests? Good thing we do have air bags nowadays.  rolleyes

So where is that fantastic miles per gallon increase you would think we should have after 40 years of technology advancement? Yes, those cars years ago did not have the comforts of today. But you would think that advancements would of kept up with any negative impacts of adding a bigger sound system, or other gadgets.

Reality is, there is only so much you can do with a gas engine. So when the government come along and suggests that they will require a minimum miles per gallon standard, car manufacturers have little choice other than cut the weight of cars, and go back to basics. It's not like they can keep the cars the same size, and rely on technology advancements to give them better gas milage alone. That is why hybrids and new higher mileage cars are much smaller and the consumer gives back a certain amount of luxury. They do their best to make them sleek, and add all the cheap plastic gadgets they can, but in the end, you have a smaller lighter car. That is the only way you can even approach the gas mileage of what cars in the past gave us.

We look at the car companies as the ones forcing these cars down our throats. Not true. It is the government, who passes mileage standards, (Via emissions requirements of lowering carbon tonnage), and then require the car companies to product, market, and sell, a certain amount to get the overall company mileage standard within the requirement.

This is the same government that feels we would better off if gas hits 8-10 dollars per gallon. Do you really think they care if you get better gas mileage and do twice the driving? Their goal is to appease environmentalists and pass standards that in their minds would lower carbon and green house gasses.

To even suggest that a car is designed and manufacturered with no regard to government standards to emissions, is exactly what they want you to think.  rolleyes

For all the technology that some say we have, the only way to get better mileage is to build shoe boxes, that did no better than cars 50 years ago.

The government spent billions in green energy. Why? Because they have an agenda. And for someone to say that this is not also infused or a factor in the car industry, is missing some key points in my opinion.
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BjornBee
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« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2012, 12:45:59 PM »

I am not sure of the actual gas mileage of the bug. Running all week on five bucks was a lot more gas then. Does anyone here know the mpg of the Bug?

I stated they were stickers qoutes. What more do you want?

They came directly from the company website. All you need to do is search 2012 beetle gas mileage and 2001 beetle gas mileage.
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« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2012, 12:47:59 PM »

A gallon of gas has 125000 BTUs of energy. The first 95000 are easy to burn completely. The rest  starts costing more to capture. An engine is a thermal convertor. As long as we are transferring the heat produced out of the radiators and the exhaust pipe,we are not getting volumetric efficiency.
We need to devise a way to conserve this vented heat energy to really increase efficiency.
This is one place where the hybrid may come into bigger play some day.The energy you use now to propel the car is wasted when you stop it. the hybrids harness this rotating energy by using wheel motors to regenerate the battery when braking rather than just wearng out a set of brake pads converting the rolling energy into heat which needs to be dispersed through the brake rotors and away into the air.
 This makes the hybrid less efficient when you are over the road,but helps reclaim thermal energy in stop and go driving.
But the battery technology and the hazards the disposal still are a concern. But this is a problem I want the market to solve not the government.
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BjornBee
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« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2012, 12:53:39 PM »

I will stand strong against anyone in the future ever stating that EPA requirements may be part of why cars today, get less milage than they did 20-50 years ago.

BuzzBee you can lead a horse to water but you canít make him drink!

1960 Vollkswagon beetle:  34hp, 6.6 compression ratio, 1600lbs, 32 mpg. http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/default.aspx?carID=18967&i=2#menu

2012 Chevy Corvette: 430hp, 26mpg.  http://www.chevrolet.com/corvette-sports-car/

Yeah, if your engine was powered by a couple of hamsters, then yes, you could get more mpg 50 years ago.



Typical.  rolleyes

You compare a 1960 beetle from years ago, with a 430 horse power corvette of today.

How about comparing the beetle (although perhaps not the worst production year as 1960) with the horse power and mileage of what they want you to buy today like the volt?

And I'm the one with an agenda?  grin

Guess you glossed right over the actual MPG I gave for the same car just 12 years apart. Bet that shocks most to even know that gas mileage has gone DOWN over the past 20 years. Must of been due to all the safety features added.  rolleyes

And there is that sly "Your an idiot" suggestion by leading horses around and not able to make him drink. Real clever. I bet my 7 year old knows that too.  rolleyes
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BjornBee
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« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2012, 12:55:52 PM »

A gallon of gas has 125000 BTUs of energy. The first 95000 are easy to burn completely. The rest  starts costing more to capture. An engine is a thermal convertor. As long as we are transferring the heat produced out of the radiators and the exhaust pipe,we are not getting volumetric efficiency.
We need to devise a way to conserve this vented heat energy to really increase efficiency.
This is one place where the hybrid may come into bigger play some day.The energy you use now to propel the car is wasted when you stop it. the hybrids harness this rotating energy by using wheel motors to regenerate the battery when braking rather than just wearng out a set of brake pads converting the rolling energy into heat which needs to be dispersed through the brake rotors and away into the air.
 This makes the hybrid less efficient when you are over the road,but helps reclaim thermal energy in stop and go driving.
But the battery technology and the hazards the disposal still are a concern. But this is a problem I want the market to solve not the government.

Ok, so now we are not even talking cars today and cars of years ago. We are talking about cars of the future and what might happen.

I'm going to watch a game.....  rolleyes
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« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2012, 01:10:26 PM »

You compare a 1960 beetle from years ago, with a 430 horse power corvette of today.

How about comparing the beetle (although perhaps not the worst production year as 1960) with the horse power and mileage of what they want you to buy today like the volt?

OK, if that makes you feel better:

Beetle mileage in 2012   22 city  30 highway.  Source BjornBee

Beetle mileage in 2001   29 city  40 highway.  Source BjornBee

Chevy Volt in 2012  58 city  62 highway

I donít want to be accused of being condescending, so Iíll let you compare 62mpg to 40mpg and report which is the bigger number  Smiley
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BjornBee
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« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2012, 01:14:09 PM »

You compare a 1960 beetle from years ago, with a 430 horse power corvette of today.

How about comparing the beetle (although perhaps not the worst production year as 1960) with the horse power and mileage of what they want you to buy today like the volt?

OK, if that makes you feel better:

Beetle mileage in 2012   22 city  30 highway.  Source BjornBee

Beetle mileage in 2001   29 city  40 highway.  Source BjornBee

Chevy Volt in 2012  58 city  62 highway

I donít want to be accused of being condescending, so Iíll let you compare 62mpg to 40mpg and report which is the bigger number  Smiley


Did you factor in electricity? And increase purchase price, etc.

Or is this your reality of rationalization?

Now your comparing hybrid electric cars by the mere comparision of mileage factoring gas mileage alone.

What a hoot! I was comparing a gas engine to a gas engine, and what has happened to gas mileage over the past 12 years. And now you compare an apple to an orange while trying to feel not condescending.  Wink Whatever floats your boat. Driving around your volt, wishing gas at 10 dollars a gallon, so you can feel superior with your finger pointed outwards at others, saying how smart you are, is not exactly what I buy into. Sorry...I'll stick with the horse.
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« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2012, 01:16:45 PM »

And contrary to those who think nothing inside a hood of a car has anything to do with emissions, carbon, or environmental crap.....read this:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=104310731

Then tell me. What exactly are they doing to cars that would cost 1300 dollars more?

Yeah right! It's all about getting YOU better gas mileage. All about "safety". And nothing motivated by carbon, green house gasses, or governmental agendas.  rolleyes

You bought that crap hook, line and sinker.  Wink
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« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2012, 03:35:17 PM »

One reason why the government wants high gas prices???

According to Edmunds.com, the price premium paid for the Volt, after discounting the US$7,500 federal tax credit, takes a long time for consumers to recover in fuel savings, often longer than the normal ownership time period. Edmunds compared the Volt (priced at US$31,712) with the same-size gasoline-powered Chevrolet Cruze (priced at US$19,656) and found that the payback period for the plug-in hybrid is 15 years for gasoline prices at US$3 per gallon, 12 years at US$4 per gallon, and drops to 9 years with gasoline prices at US$5 per gallon. At early 2012 prices, the break even period is 14 years. These estimates assume an average of 15,000 mi (24,000 km) annual driving and vehicle prices correspond to Edmunds.com's true market value estimates

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« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2012, 05:19:47 PM »

Then tell me. What exactly are they doing to cars that would cost 1300 dollars more?
If we tell you, are you going to believe us?   

BuzzBee already pointed out many of the technical issues, if we tell you more is it really going to change your opinion?
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BjornBee
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« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2012, 06:47:20 PM »

Believe what? I'm sure I won't see things as you do. So that is the requirement of leading a horse to water. You will only lead him, if he promises with sprinkles on top, poke a needle in my eye, and whatever else your grade school humor requires.

I'll stick to my position. If it were not for the governments involvement in requiring us to use ethanol which brings down mpg, the requirements to produce cars that need to account for dozens of gas blends, and their intrusion within an industry, based on manufacturing a product based on carbon counting....the market could probably do a better job of raising mpg on their own.

What we have now, is government dictating the market, by using the consumer pocketbook to pay for carbon efforts, expecting the public to pay a premium for these mandatory requirements, while telling them they should be happy to pay for the extra "supposed" safety and mileage.

Yes, have the consumer pay for half a car, with the same mileage of cars 30 years ago, at twice the price, and try to trick them into thinking this is not about carbon emissions or the governments control.

But the consumer is not being fooled. They did not drink the tainted water afterall. And some actually think this is all by design to appease some, while oil still rules the day.  Wink

I think if the government allowed it, and encouraged it, you could design a car today with something such as the rotary engine used 40 years ago that was awesome. But we all know bigger forces at play that would kill anything like that.
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« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2012, 07:08:18 PM »

Of course, the fact that gasoline 40 years ago was 100 octane, some even more, and it is barely above 80 now, had nothing to do with mileage, did it.
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« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2012, 07:46:57 PM »

For the record, I could buy a 2012 Toyota corolla starting at 16,000 with 30-38 mpg, and be much further ahead. But I suppose some will think that being charged 31,000 for a volt, and saving at the pump will work out around 15 years from now.  rolleyes

That is the only way I could see figuring it out. Electricity is not clean, and I know my price for electricity in Pennsylvania has gone up and will continue to increase. making that savings of a hybrid smaller and smaller, or probably about 25 years to break even.
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« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2012, 07:47:42 PM »

Of course, the fact that gasoline 40 years ago was 100 octane, some even more, and it is barely above 80 now, had nothing to do with mileage, did it.

 Wink

Of course the volt requires premium gas....
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« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2012, 08:01:44 PM »

If your compression ratio is a measly 6.6 as in the 1960 Beetle that some seem to see as the glory days, 100 octane fuel is a complete waste!  Iím sure I donít have to remind the bee keepers on here that 100 octane fuel of old had tetraethellead in it to get to that 100 level!   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraethyllead. 

Was it a bad thing for those big bad horrible government regulators to ban this toxin from the environment and the children in America?

Something our esteemed colleague T said in another post comes to mind:

Here's a little hint about debates and debating;  LEARN the MATERIAL you're going to debate!  One can't debate a person who has 'no idea' what the other is talking about, so someone must either get over themselves or get educated.  Its a choice thing  Wink   

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« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2012, 08:38:50 PM »

Better learn them yourself, Bluebee. AMOCO white gas was unleaded and 100 octane. The lead just made it cheaper to get it up to 100. It could be and was, done without lead.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2012, 09:00:52 PM »

OK, I did learn something new there grin  I was unaware of "white gas" since I wasnít born at the time. 

It is good to admit when youíre wrong from time to time; others might want to give it a try too.
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« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2012, 09:27:01 PM »

That's why I get a bit frustrated on the forum sometimes. The younger folks argue about what they've read, when I've actually lived through it. Hard to get them to believe the truth. The propaganda sounds so much better.
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« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2012, 11:14:12 PM »

Well iddee, Kerosene is unleaded and the octane is a lot more than 100.

60 years ago, you might find an American car that would run on white gas. It was considered tractor fuel in West Michigan and I think only available as a bulk delivery. TetraEthylead (Ethyl) was invented(?) in the 1930's, by Dupont.

Propaganda ?, I was grinding valves in 1974.
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« Reply #39 on: March 05, 2012, 05:43:26 AM »

""Propaganda ?, I was grinding valves in 1974.""

Well, Hello, YOUNG fellow.  I owned and ran a shoe shine stand 1952. R & R'ing engines in 1958.

Yes, white gas was considered regular", not "ethyl". That's why I am saying, they know how to produce 100 octane gas without lead. They are just cutting cost at the expense of our mileage.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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