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Author Topic: Volt-less  (Read 4190 times)
BlueBee
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« on: March 03, 2012, 01:28:25 PM »

GM is shutting down production of the Volt for 5 weeks because supply is outstripping demand.  People aren’t buying the things.  http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120303/AUTO0103/203030322/GM-suspend-Volt-production?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|FRONTPAGE|p

Is that really a surprise to anybody?  I didn’t’ think so.  I highly doubt it’s a surprise inside GM either; they’ll never admit it publically though.  GM is well aware only the celebs can afford electric cars, they learned that lesson 10 years ago with the EV1.  Ever see the movie Who Killed the Electric Car? 

I think the Volt was just invented to placate the people in power who have no idea how energy works.  Unfortunately that includes some Democrats Sad  Did I just say that?
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kathyp
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« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2012, 03:27:17 PM »

Quote
I think the Volt was just invented to placate the people in power who have no idea how energy works.

it fit the green agenda.  when you make decisions based on agenda, rather than practical considerations, this is the result.  i don't care that folks do that with their own money, but i sure do care when they do it with tax dollars.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2012, 04:40:39 PM »

>>when you make decisions based on agenda
Isn't that the definition of POLITICS?  grin
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BjornBee
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« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2012, 08:48:55 AM »

Ah, come on now.

Perhaps they were good hearted folks just wanting to make things better.  rolleyes

It probably started years ago, by having folks suggest that "others" are idiots. You know, because they can't list all their supreme court justices, school board members, or other reasons of ignorance. They might see most folks as ignorant sports enthusiasts, able to name players but not what they think is important.

So some pompous finger pointing types, who feel "others" are a bit less intelligent then themselves, say "Hey, we need to push these things on others" cause they are too stupid to do it themselves. So they say that this is a good thing. Afterall, we will helping these poor saps keep their jobs at the factory anyways.

When folks start grouping people into boxes, defining who they are by what they know, what they do, or by some level of intelligence based on knowing their school board members, while denigrating them because they are not as good as the perception of one with their finger pointed outwards....you get crap like this!

I'm sure saving the car industry, political motivations, money, agenda, all played a part. But I also find that this is usually combined with some justification of "We know better than you, and we will force you to do it, for your own good" type attitude. Of course, I don't have to explain this to folks here, we do it all the time. Maybe not the final steps of actually having any persuasion of forcing folks to buy cars, but by the grouping, denigrating, and labeling others, which is the crucial first few steps before the final stages are carried out.

Way too many folks pointing fingers at others, denigrating others based on some perceived notion of what they do or do not know or what they did or did not read, and thinking they know better than others.

So can you really blame others up the food chain as they do the same things as we do, yet have the power to push things like cars upon others. I would think that many of us, based on what I have read, would be no better if given the chance.

Politics includes the fact that some guy, wanted to be a politician, because he can do a better job, he knows best, and he will make things better. That is why many run in the first place. But you don't need to look at politicians to see this same scenario carried out by every day folks. Everyone is worried about others. Everyone thinks "they" know what is best.

Cheers!
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« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2012, 09:01:18 AM »

In 1991 I purchased a brand new Honda civic vx.  It was the first vtech engine (which was developed underground within the Honda engineering dept).  48 city, 55 highway.  Better mileage than the current civic hybrid.
I felt I was voting with my wallet.  Most Honda's today use the vtech technology....but it is used to boost performance rather than for high fuel efficiency.  I guess my vote was not a majority...customers.want high performance, not extreme efficiency.
Better millage than the civic hybrid, yet many states allow hybrids to use the carpool lane even if the driver is alone....I would have gotten a ticket.
Some places have preferred parking for hybrids...I could not park there, yet the luxury infinity hybrid.my father drives with Milage  in the high 20s could.

Give the people what they want.

Deknow
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BjornBee
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« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2012, 09:20:17 AM »

deknow,
I would suppose that some of the reason Honda can not build the cars with 48/55 miles per gallon as they did 20 years ago, is all the regulation crap required under the hood.  rolleyes

They of course can, if you build the cars out of cardboard.

I worked in the funeral home business for years in the past. And last year while sitting at a light, this box looking toy car pulled up next to me. I mentioned to the wife that they should have three sets of screw holes on each side of that car. She asked why? I stated that they could be used for the handles if they ever got into a crash. It actually looked like 6 men could of just picked the thing up and carried the folks to the grave if needed. I seen caskets better build to withstand a crash. Watching this thing slide up along a semi-truck, I could not help think that it would be nothing more than a speed bump in a crash.

I'll pay extra to strap my kids in the SUV.  grin
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« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2012, 09:24:35 AM »

The market has spoken on the volt.And deknow,in the end it did seem like a waste of resources to build a separate lane that fewer motorists could travel.
Another bit of social engineering by the ones who know whats good for us.
 If the volt would have been a hit,we do not have the power grid to supply a many fold increase in electric demand. I just can't really see people pedaling a home generation device to power recharge their car.
And Bjorn, the Civic has evolved into a larger car with more features that ultimately make the car larger,and heavier. But Honda has consistently produced a car that people want to buy. I think they have kept a good compromise of mileage versus creature comfort.
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BjornBee
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« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2012, 09:27:14 AM »

Ok, I stand corrected. It has nothing to do with governmental requirements, and EPA emission standards, etc.

Good to know.
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« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2012, 09:44:24 AM »

both honda and toyota have hybrids that the oregon folks love to drive; but even here, where tree hugging is akin to religious worship, the electric car has not caught on. 

cities put in chargers with grant (tax) money, but the people of the nose ring, and pink spiky hair did not come.......
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2012, 09:45:55 AM »

I'm sure some of the safety requirements have lent a hand,but the technology is there to keep the mileage up in the engines.The regulations have added much more on the cost side than performance / mileage side. Fuel management is much better than models from even 10 years ago,which is why you see much longer engine life,but this has added to cost without adversly hurting performance.
  They also have to pay Vince and Larry a lot of money to go hurling in cars toward immovable objects,just to see if they survive. grin
 Even though a car model was perfectly acceptable from a safety standpoint last year,it could have become very dangerous because the calendar rolled over into another year.
 But as DeKnow said,he voted on the car manufacturer with his wallet,as it should be.
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BjornBee
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« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2012, 10:23:32 AM »

Yes, Yes....I have already acknowledged that the stuff under the hood has everything to with milage, and nothing to do with EPA emissions. I think you are mixing safety, emissions requirements, and demand. Each time, you add another item to my comments. I never said anything about safety but did leave it open by the original comments I made by stating "some of the reasoning" meaning other things are at play also..

but yes....now it is about safety as to why cars can not get 55/48. Although after seeing the small boxes they now produce, safety might be somewhat questionable.

But as I said twice, and now stand corrected again, it has nothing to do with emissions and EPA standards. I acknowledge it has to do more with demand of a bigger car, and now added safety features. And nothing with emissions requirements. I will stand strong against anyone in the future ever stating that EPA requirements may be part of why cars today, get less milage than they did 20-50 years ago.

I wonder if the bug produced 50 years ago, would be allowed on the road today, if manufactured in the same manner as it was years ago?  They got great milage. I would think perhaps a bumper upgrade would be needed. But I wonder if they would pass the mandatory emissions testing I now pay for?  rolleyes emissions testing....I wonder what that is all about anyways? I keep hearing it is about milage and safety. I have never paid a "milage inspection". Hmmmm.....
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« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2012, 10:32:29 AM »

both honda and toyota have hybrids that the oregon folks love to drive; but even here, where tree hugging is akin to religious worship, the electric car has not caught on.  

cities put in chargers with grant (tax) money, but the people of the nose ring, and pink spiky hair did not come.......

They are holding out for free cars.  rolleyes Just give it some time....... They have great faith in an Obama second term.  grin

Of course this says nothing about the whole "Do as I say, and not as I do" stance which is strong among some groups. Didn't Gore smirk and laugh when he said "Hey....come on now folks, I wasn't talking about me", when he suggested folks live in mud huts and ride bicycles to work every day" as he slammed the front door on his 33,000 square foot home.  rolleyes
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« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2012, 10:58:39 AM »

Other than lower compression in the engines not much of the emmission equipment effects the mileage that much.It affects cost.Performance  and mileage is greatly reduced if a misfiring engine is allowed to damage a catalytic convertor.
 Although I think we should be able to purchase what we want,I would like to know which piece of equipment ( other than lower compression) actually reduces the mileage,other than adding weight to the car? The enhanced control of the fuel being burned is a plus to the mileage.A carb failed its mission on fuel control miserably outside of it's original parameters. It was not able to adapt well with changing temps,altitude or fuel qualities. A cat is not actually a power parasite,it is oversized to the rest of the exhaust system so flow is not a problem.Any air injection pumps now are electric and only run long enough to preheat a cat at startup.No belt driven loss of power.
 I am not a tree hugger by any mean,but some of these advancements have kept the mileage up despite the addition of lower BTU/ Gallon fuel(alcohol).
Perhaps that is where the mileage argument could be better made. Another thing that can have an effect on mileage is not just tire pressures,but tire design. Some cheaper tires can actually have a stronger rolling resistance than a premium tire which greatly changes mileage,but there is no way to compare them.
I am also guessing keeping the vapors stored from the fuel tank to be burned in the engine also contributes to lesser mileage,but that is just a guess.
 
 Do you remember why the big three almost died in the late seventies? Because when the oil crisis hit,none had a car that would produce any mileage. And every domestic four cylinder was a piece of crap.I don't think that holds true anymore. But that was dictated more by the consume than the fed.

Some points:
When was the last time you saw someone in for a "valve job" in under 100k miles?
Spark plugs go 100k without much trouble
Rarely do engines need pulled for overhauls anymore.
Rarely do you see puffs of blue smoke out the tailpipes.
  Compare fuel useage of a 318 dodge from the seventies to a 5.2 of today. They are much better.And they will go a lot further.
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BjornBee
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« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2012, 11:26:03 AM »

So what you are saying is those bugs 50 years ago, which put out a good amount of smoke, but got fantastic milage, was being hindered in the milage ability, and would of been better off being built in today's times? What would they get today taking in account all the faults of the engines of years ago as you suggest?

A car like the bug which got great milage, would never be allowed to be built like that in todays world. And you can bet it has to do with emissions and things including safety or milage.

Wow...you would think that a bug today, would be around 80-100 miles per gallon with all the stuff they put under the hood today. You know, enhanced fuel delivery systems, and other stuff based solely on getting good milage. I remembered years ago, being able to stand in the wheel well and work on cars. Today, under the hood is filled with so much stuff, doing an oil change is nearly impossible. But none of that stuff has anything to do with emissions, just milage.  rolleyes

So if cars small built today, run better, than why are they not better in milage, than what was built years ago? You would think those smoke producing cars you say ran so inefficiently years ago, would of gotten far less than they actually did.

Could a bug of 50 years ago, with the change in gas over the years, even run as good as they could 50 years ago? Or is the stuff under the hood in today's cars different based on changing gas?

Beetle mileage in 2012   22 city  30 highway.

Beetle mileage in 2001   29 city  40 highway.

Those were sticker quotes.

The stuff thy need to include with cars today, to keep them clean enough to pass emissions testing, is part of the problem. Yes, safety and more comforts are included in that. But you can not just dump a great mileage slant four engine in a car today, and not be able to pass other EPA requirements.

for all the advancements, mileage is not getting better. So they build smaller cars, lighter in weight, so they can get mileage up, while passing the smog requirements.

To suggest that emissions is not part of the equation, I can not see that.

Sorry.
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« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2012, 12:16:46 PM »

I am not sure of the actual gas mileage of the bug. Running all week on five bucks was a lot more gas then. Does anyone here know the mpg of the Bug?
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« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2012, 12:22:25 PM »

My first car, a '64 1400cc bug got 55mpg. At $.25/gal I could run all week on $2.

Scott
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« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2012, 12:26:57 PM »

I will stand strong against anyone in the future ever stating that EPA requirements may be part of why cars today, get less milage than they did 20-50 years ago.

BuzzBee you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink!

1960 Vollkswagon beetle:  34hp, 6.6 compression ratio, 1600lbs, 32 mpg. http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/default.aspx?carID=18967&i=2#menu

2012 Chevy Corvette: 430hp, 26mpg.  http://www.chevrolet.com/corvette-sports-car/

Yeah, if your engine was powered by a couple of hamsters, then yes, you could get more mpg 50 years ago.
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« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2012, 12:29:10 PM »

A lot of the perception of more stuff is the fact that in todays cars the engine and transmission are both under the hood. The transmission is no longer tucked under the floor.
 Also stored under the hood on many cars are the workings for the ABS and the rack and pinion that most cars are using today.On top of that a lot of the bodies are pushed forward over the transaxle
assembly as the engine and transaxle are installed as a unit from underneath.
They have eliminated a lot of the vacuum controlled devices and related hoses and wiring.As the PCMs control more of the functions in the engine and transmission,the parts hanging on the engine are becoming fewer.
 But you as a consumer do have some choice as there are companies out there that provide reprogramming for the PCMs so you can increase the performance and some claim mileage if you wish to purchase the upgrade.
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« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2012, 12:31:27 PM »

Im betting a Beetle with 36 hp is not a fair comaparison to a 460 HP corvette. Todays motorcycles get far better mileage than 36.With  more horsepower than that bug had.I am still not convinced that Beetele got that great of mileage or if you would do near that on alcohol blended fuel.
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« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2012, 12:35:50 PM »

I agree with you Buzz.  The point is that engines HAVE improved a lot in 50 years despite what some believe.  Nobody would run a 6.6 compression ratio engine today.  Compression ratio = efficiency = mileage.
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