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Author Topic: Volt-less  (Read 4271 times)
indypartridge
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« Reply #40 on: March 05, 2012, 07:06:41 AM »

...customers.want high performance, not extreme efficiency.
We have a winner!  I worked for GM for many years, and this was ALWAYS the case. It didn't matter how high gas prices were, performance always outsold fuel efficiency. For any vehicle where we offered a choice of a 4 or 6 cylinder engine, the 6 always outsold the 4 by at least 2-1, often 3-1 or even 4-1. More horsepower always translated to higher sales.
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BjornBee
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« Reply #41 on: March 05, 2012, 07:46:15 AM »


Something our esteemed colleague T said in another post comes to mind:

Here's a little hint about debates and debating;  LEARN the MATERIAL you're going to debate!  One can't debate a person who has 'no idea' what the other is talking about, so someone must either get over themselves or get educated.  Its a choice thing  Wink   


Very clever using someone elses words to denigrate others.  Wink
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« Reply #42 on: March 05, 2012, 07:47:59 AM »



It is good to admit when you’re wrong from time to time; others might want to give it a try too.


There you go. Perfect record still intact.  Wink
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« Reply #43 on: March 05, 2012, 07:54:40 AM »

...customers.want high performance, not extreme efficiency.
We have a winner!  I worked for GM for many years, and this was ALWAYS the case. It didn't matter how high gas prices were, performance always outsold fuel efficiency. For any vehicle where we offered a choice of a 4 or 6 cylinder engine, the 6 always outsold the 4 by at least 2-1, often 3-1 or even 4-1. More horsepower always translated to higher sales.

Winner for what?

Nobody was debating whether folks wanted mileage over performance. I must not be getting all the posts again.  rolleyes I could of answered that long ago.

Of course the reality of what you said is the reason except for a few, nobody is buying the volt, unless they give it away for pennies.  grin

I certainly do not drive the best mpg cars, trucks, or SUV. Of course, I'm not praying for 10 dollar gas either, thinking this will solve global warming.  grin

Obama response....."We need to double down!"

So maybe some are waiting for 15,000 tax credits next year for the volt.  rolleyes
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BlueBee
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« Reply #44 on: March 05, 2012, 12:49:05 PM »

Beetle mileage in 2012   22 city  30 highway.  
Beetle mileage in 2001   29 city  40 highway.

What a hoot! I was comparing a gas engine to a gas engine, and what has happened to gas mileage over the past 12 years.


For those that haven’t made up their mind that a 1960 beetle is more fuel efficient than a 2012 engine, you might also want to take into account that the EPA changed the test for rating mileage in 2008.  The EPA determined that the old ratings were too optimistic.  So the tests were changed to better reflect the mileage people really should expect in the real world. 

“Under the new system, most cars will carry a significantly lower number than before”  http://cargasmileagecomparisons.net/gas-mileage-chart/new-epa-gas-mileage-estimates/
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bee-nuts
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« Reply #45 on: March 05, 2012, 01:21:11 PM »

Its electric range is not practical.  I don't think its that people are not open to electric cars, its they have to be practical.  If they get a 100 mile range and you can plug it into the wall without having to re-wire your house, then people will start buying them.  The volt is simply not practical with a pathetic 25-50 mile range, expensive or not!

I hope the Nissan leaf has better luck.  I would consider one with its 100 mile range if it can be purchased for the 27k they say.  At $5 a gallon it would pay it self of if you drive over 50 miles a day rather quickly.  compared with my 17mpg gas guzzling 03 blazer at $70-80 a week minimum at $3.75 a gallon it looks rather nice.
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« Reply #46 on: March 05, 2012, 01:59:54 PM »

Bee Nuts, that’s the whole idea of the Volt, an electric car that will NOT strand you in the middle of some bee bog in Wisconsin.  When the thing runs out of electricity the gas motor powers on and runs at a high efficiency load point to generate electricity to keep you going for 300+ miles.  If a Leaf is rated at 100 miles, in the cold of Wisconsin, you would get nothing close to that.  When you're out juice, you have to call the Wrecker company.  Last time I had to get towed, it was rather expensive.

The Volt can be recharged from a normal 120VAC garage outlet for about $1.50 a day.  If you live near an urban city like most of the US population, you may be able to get to and from work on that 35 mile electric range and commute gas free.  This solution would also let the family make that trip to Florida whereas that would be very difficult with a leaf.  http://www.chevrolet.com/volt-electric-car/

Personally I think a high compression diesel makes more sense than an electric or hybrid, but if a person is dead set on going electric, the Volt seems far less likely to leave you stranded than the Leaf.
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buzzbee
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« Reply #47 on: March 05, 2012, 05:26:39 PM »

For anyone considering a volt or other electric car,do you actually know what it is going to cost to charge it up for equivalent mileages? Kilowatts are not cheap either.And what is the turn around time to recharge? If you have to jump in your gasser because the battery is dead,doesn't it defeat the purpose?
And if you need a recharge once you get to work, do you expect your employer to provide the juice? Or do you get it towed home for a recharge?
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BlueBee
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« Reply #48 on: March 05, 2012, 06:23:24 PM »

The Chevy Volt has a 16 kilowatt hour battery.  Electricity costs 12 cents per kilowatt hour in Michigan.   12 cents per kilowatt-hour x 16 hours = $1.92 for a full charge.  Price of gas in Michigan is now $3.99.
 
That’s a range of about 35 miles for $1.92 with the Volt.  Your avg car these days probably averages around 25 mpg.  So they cost you $4 to go 25 miles while it’s only $2 to go 35 miles in the Volt.   Power cost for a typical commute is very likely half the cost of a gas car.

BuzzBee makes some good points about getting stuck high and dry with a pure electric, that’s the argument for going with a hybrid instead.
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bee-nuts
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« Reply #49 on: March 06, 2012, 12:10:25 PM »

the figure is somewhere around the equivalent of 99 miles to the gallon.

Yes blue bee I get it.  The point is 25-50 miles is a joke.

The leaf gets anywhere from 60-130 miles a charge depending on if you have the heat or ac on and driving conditions.  Of course its not a drive across the county car.  Its a go to work and shopping car.  You would still need a gas powered car in the family but in my mind its a better concept and much more affordable than the volt.  What I dont like is you have to rewire your garage.  Thats plain dumb.  you should be able to plug in to any outlet so you can go to your brothers or sisters or what have you and fill up and give em a five or ten bucks.  You can by gauges to track kilowatts used and most folks I know would have no problem letting you plug in if you could show them how much electricity you used and offered to pay them.  Same for my employer.  Its not beyond realistic.  It would take years but eventually motels and such would provide charging ability and as with any other technology, battery life would improve as time goes by, and you should be able to by better batteries with longer life spans etc as time goes by.  I think its a good option that some day could end up being very practicable.  I almost never drive more than 60 miles a day before I am back home.  I bet most drive less than that before returning home.  And thats MOST!

But thats an issue they need to figure out.  But at 5 bucks a gallon or higher there will be more interest in the idea so it may actually get the demand needed to fuel the concept beyond an idea.
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« Reply #50 on: March 06, 2012, 12:47:16 PM »

Leaf Battery capacity = 24kw-hours.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf

15 Amp 120VAC outlet = 1800 watts max power output.  This is a limit of physics.

Leaf evidently limits power intake to 1400 watts to reduce ohmic heating losses.

1400watts x 1 hour = 1.4kw-hours into the Leaf per hour (minus heat losses)

24kw-hour capacity / 1.4kw-hours per hour of charge = 17 hours.

You can charge the Leaf or the Volt from a 120VAC plug, however you still have to obey Physics.   

Some people don’t have 17 hours to wait for their car to recharge; they get a hybrid or rewire their garage for higher voltage/current.
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SEEYA
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« Reply #51 on: March 06, 2012, 06:39:33 PM »

Keep figuring folks: I just saw an AMISH buggy go by, and if gas hits $5/gal I gonna get me one.
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« Reply #52 on: March 06, 2012, 08:01:39 PM »

Quote
But thats an issue they need to figure out.  But at 5 bucks a gallon or higher there will be more interest in the idea so it may actually get the demand needed to fuel the concept beyond an idea.

better that than tax dollars to force the idea.
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« Reply #53 on: March 06, 2012, 09:13:54 PM »

Who knows Ray, maybe there is a subsidy on horses too  grin

Then there is that Tennessee Professor trying to drive across the US on 10 gallons of gas.  http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/technology/2012/03/tennessee-professor-tries-to-drive-across-us-on-10-gallons-of-gas/

The News Media seems to always pick the nuts for their stories.  Batteries and Hydrogen gas huh  A much more sensible and realistic plan would  be to use CNG.  I did hear that Chrysler was working on a CNG powered pickup.  Boone is also trying to convert a fleet of Semis to CNG.
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luvin honey
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« Reply #54 on: March 08, 2012, 08:04:42 PM »

In 1991 I purchased a brand new Honda civic vx.  It was the first vtech engine (which was developed underground within the Honda engineering dept).  48 city, 55 highway.  Better mileage than the current civic hybrid.
I felt I was voting with my wallet.  Most Honda's today use the vtech technology....but it is used to boost performance rather than for high fuel efficiency.  I guess my vote was not a majority...customers.want high performance, not extreme efficiency.
Better millage than the civic hybrid, yet many states allow hybrids to use the carpool lane even if the driver is alone....I would have gotten a ticket.
Some places have preferred parking for hybrids...I could not park there, yet the luxury infinity hybrid.my father drives with Milage  in the high 20s could.

Give the people what they want.

Deknow
Isn't that crazy? I got a Saturn in 1996. It was 40 mpg consistently. It was excruciating to have to move backwards in fuel technology when we finally got another car last year. What on earth?!?

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« Reply #55 on: March 09, 2012, 01:26:47 PM »

"Isn't that crazy? I got a Saturn in 1996. It was 40 mpg consistently. It was excruciating to have to move backwards in fuel technology when we finally got another car last year. What on earth?!?"

I often wonder how much pollution is really saved when emision laws bring gas milage down.  For instance if you can get 50mpg with more lax emissions and only 35 when you recover a ton of it, are you now making more pollution burning more gallons of gas trying in the end or would it just be more effective to maximinze millage.  It does seem insane that we were getting 40 plus mpg easily in the 80s n 90s and now you can hardly get 30
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luvin honey
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« Reply #56 on: March 09, 2012, 01:34:59 PM »

That's exactly what I've wondered also. What are the emission standards in Europe, where I hear their cars easily get 60 mpg?
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BlueBee
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« Reply #57 on: March 09, 2012, 01:37:39 PM »

Isn't that crazy? I got a Saturn in 1996. It was 40 mpg consistently. It was excruciating to have to move backwards in fuel technology when we finally got another car last year. What on earth?!?
Plenty of blame for the current state of affairs can be placed on our good buddy Dubya.  In Jan 2001 the Bush administration scrapped a $1.5 billon Clinton era program to develop an 80 mpg car by 2004.  2004!!!  Do you really think we would be paying $4 per gallon NOW if cars had gone up to 80 mpg by 2004? 

As usual the Republican’s like to claim it’s not their fault we consumed ever more oil under Bush.  Their solution is always “drill baby drill” and then we can all drive hummers for $2.50 a gallon, pretty much forever.  Right…..that sounds realistic.
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BlueBee
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« Reply #58 on: March 09, 2012, 01:40:57 PM »

That's exactly what I've wondered also. What are the emission standards in Europe, where I hear their cars easily get 60 mpg?
High compression ratio diesels and SMALL cars get you to 60mpg.
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BlueBee
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« Reply #59 on: March 09, 2012, 01:56:18 PM »

I often wonder how much pollution is really saved when emission laws bring gas mileage down. 

You do realize that when you pump raw gasoline out of the cylinders without burning it, you are not extracting power from it!  You don’t gain MPG by pumping out unburned fuel.  One goal of emissions controls is to burn as much of that gasoline in the combustion chamber as possible and make POWER OUTPUT as opposed to just sending it out the tail pipe.  That’s good for MPG and good for the environment.  Finer injector sprays and better combustion dynamics get you more fuel burned = more mileage.

What the general public calls “emissions” is really a combination of unburned hydro carbons (gasoline), oxides of Nitrogen (NOx), and Carbon monoxide (CO).  NOx comes from running too hot.  Do you really want to melt down your valves?  CO comes from running too cold.  Do you really want to cake up your cylinders with carbon?   

It does seem insane that we were getting 40 plus mpg easily in the 80s n 90s and now you can hardly get 30

EPA changed rating system for mpg in 2008 to reflect actual mileage better.  The old numbers were bogus.
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