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Author Topic: When will our girls Finnish Capping the Honey?  (Read 2433 times)
rawfind
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« on: March 01, 2012, 01:16:35 PM »

Hello Neil!
The honey is still edible but liable to ferment.  You can eat it quickly or freeze it too if you like. 

Now, that is a very good question about under supering.  I have no idea what the term means.  But I want to know too in which order it is best to add supers.  In a couple of hives I had a super full of honey but just not fully capped.  I wanted to encourage finishing the capping and then replace with empty frames.  But the numbers grew and I got that burr comb and still not fully capped.  I added an empty super on top thinking that they would finish the lower one and move up.  In a week or so they had drawn a lot of the frames out and started filling with honey, but they hadn't capped the original super.  One of my beek mentors told me that they work from the top down and I should put the fuller one at the top and the emptier one below, which is what I did.  Now the new super is fully drawn and just about ready to start capping and they still haven't finished capping the older one. Do they work from the top or bottom, and what is the best order to add supers? 

Hey Lone,
              started a new topic on this one might be easier to get answers and help others with the same problem find the topic.

We would like to know if anyone has most of their frames capped but are still waiting for the  last little bit to be capped?

How long will they take?
Can  they be somehow induced to cap the rest?
Undersupering how should this be performed?
re Neil
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Lone
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« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2012, 03:39:33 PM »

phew, thanks for all that cutting and pasting, it's saved me a heap of work!

Lone
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rawfind
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« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2012, 12:09:46 AM »

phew, thanks for all that cutting and pasting, it's saved me a heap of work!

Lone
no probs Lone,
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shan777
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« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2012, 02:30:03 AM »

good question! Having same issues.
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rawfind
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« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2012, 10:16:07 AM »

good question! Having same issues.
Hopefully someone will be able to shed some light on it for us newcomers Shan
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Lone
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« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2012, 04:24:05 PM »

oh no, a question without an answer is like a ship without a sail, a coat without a collar-button....
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rawfind
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« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2012, 11:23:39 PM »

oh no, a question without an answer is like a ship without a sail, a coat without a collar-button....
youre not wrong there.

Had a peek in the hive i was going to add a 3rd super to today, to my horror there was brood in the top box above the excluder!
saw her up there, she looked like a big italian queen, not the nice black carnolian i had requeend with.
This particular box has give me nothing but greif this year, checked out the bottom box it was mainly pollen and some honey, a remmant of brood that hadnt quite hatched yet, i must have missed the queen when i put the excluder on and trapped her up top, not my intention.
There was nothing to do but reverse the boxes around to get it right second time around.
Got sick of waiting for all my other frames to get sealed so i decided to take whatever was ready just to perk up my confidence and get at least something out of the work i have put in. Seems to take forever.... you hear about other pulling kilo after kilo out their hives and think "hey when are mine going to reward me"   so what the heck im going to dirty my extractor for one frame of honey! 3kgs is at least something to keep me from despair. Plus i got to get the hang of this heated knife plus the whole process, Neil
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the-ecohouse.com
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« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2012, 11:42:58 PM »

where aborts you based Rawfind?
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2012, 12:02:16 AM »

Every time I see this thread I fight the urge to respond... but I give up.  I keep thinking of the joke about the Russian, the Himalayan and the Finnish... I'm kind of surprised that Finski hasn't responded since he is Finnish...

I've never noticed a big difference in the order of the supers.  They fill the space available.
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rawfind
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« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2012, 01:35:19 AM »

where aborts you based Rawfind?
North east vic, in Wallan
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rawfind
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« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2012, 01:36:43 AM »

Every time I see this thread I fight the urge to respond... but I give up.  I keep thinking of the joke about the Russian, the Himalayan and the Finnish... I'm kind of surprised that Finski hasn't responded since he is Finnish...

I've never noticed a big difference in the order of the supers.  They fill the space available.
they are filling ok just seem to be taking their sweet time capping the last inch at the bottom
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Lone
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« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2012, 05:20:22 AM »

I've found an answer, finally!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is...


Patience!!!   It's been one and a half weeks since the last inspection and today we pulled 10 fully capped frames!  These were the older ones they'd had 75% capped for 3 months.  Yabbadabbadoo yeehaa.  Smiley  My honeypot is now full!
The flywire below the lid is working great - none of that comb built in the lid, so they are forced to plant wax and honey below.

Neil, you need to fill up your honey pot, so extract it for sure!  When you get a little spare liquid gold, you could put that frame in the freezer and wait till you have a few to do together. It's not dirtying the extractor is the problem, it's the cleaning up! (I'm thinking of your wife..)

My breed of queen generally goes through the excluder a couple of times and is shifted back down until she takes the hint.  It's interesting it wasn't the queen you introduced.  Perhaps they superceded her, or if there were eggs at the time you introduced her, maybe decided to make their own? 

Quote
Every time I see this thread I fight the urge to respond... but I give up.  I keep thinking of the joke about the Russian, the Himalayan and the Finnish... I'm kind of surprised that Finski hasn't responded since he is Finnish...

Michael, I think Finski knows he can never point out bad spelling!  He'd have too many people pointing back to his unique spellings.

What is the joke?

Quote
I've never noticed a big difference in the order of the supers.  They fill the space available.

That is good to know - everyone is right!

Lone
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rawfind
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« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2012, 01:16:36 PM »

I've found an answer, finally!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is...


Patience!!!   It's been one and a half weeks since the last inspection and today we pulled 10 fully capped frames!  These were the older ones they'd had 75% capped for 3 months.  Yabbadabbadoo yeehaa.  Smiley  My honeypot is now full!
The flywire below the lid is working great - none of that comb built in the lid, so they are forced to plant wax and honey below.

Neil, you need to fill up your honey pot, so extract it for sure!  When you get a little spare liquid gold, you could put that frame in the freezer and wait till you have a few to do together. It's not dirtying the extractor is the problem, it's the cleaning up! (I'm thinking of your wife..)

My breed of queen generally goes through the excluder a couple of times and is shifted back down until she takes the hint.  It's interesting it wasn't the queen you introduced.  Perhaps they superceded her, or if there were eggs at the time you introduced her, maybe decided to make their own? 

Quote
Every time I see this thread I fight the urge to respond... but I give up.  I keep thinking of the joke about the Russian, the Himalayan and the Finnish... I'm kind of surprised that Finski hasn't responded since he is Finnish...


Lone
Great to hear they finally capped it off Lone,
                                                     seems exactly what mine are doing (75%)   got a stack of bud coming online so i dont think its its over here just yet. I extracted the one frame that was ready, was a good learning curve, even with empty frames to help try balance it , it still took some holding, me and the missus !     

Nice golden honey really nice, got 3 jars at about 540grams each plus one just under a quarter filled , dosnt add to 3kgs so i guess there are other factors like different honey weighs more?

Ive no doubt they superceded my queen its the second time that hive has done it now, its nice to have a few jars of my own honey sitting in the pantry! Wink
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Lone
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« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2012, 09:39:34 PM »

Quote
I extracted the one frame that was ready, was a good learning curve, even with empty frames to help try balance it , it still took some holding, me and the missus !     

You'll have to put your wallet in the extractor to balance the weight  cheesy

Congrats on your honey - your own always tastes the best.  3kg would be an above average size frame for sure.  I think 2kg would be more typical.  We finished filling up one and a half containers this morning, the most we've ever had.

Lone
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rawfind
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« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2012, 11:14:32 PM »

Quote
I extracted the one frame that was ready, was a good learning curve, even with empty frames to help try balance it , it still took some holding, me and the missus !     

You'll have to put your wallet in the extractor to balance the weight  cheesy

Congrats on your honey - your own always tastes the best.  3kg would be an above average size frame for sure.  I think 2kg would be more typical.  We finished filling up one and a half containers this morning, the most we've ever had.

Lone

Yes im think 2 to 2/& 1/2 must be the norm, by containers you mean 20 litre tubs Lone?
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2012, 03:34:29 AM »

From the Australasian Bee Manual:

"RIPENING EXTRACTED HONEY. 
"The thorough ripening of honey before placing it on the market is a matter of the greatest importance, both to the owner and to the industry generally.  When first gathered as nectar, it may contain an amount of water ranging from 18 per cent., up to 25 per cent., or more.  Honey containing an excess of moisture is unripe, and if it remain in that condition it is certain sooner or later to ferment; it is then unfit for table use.  But, if such mois-ture be reduced below a certain percentage the honey is said to be ripe, and it will then keep, with ordinary care, for almost any length of time.  At what point the excess of moisture commences I have not yet been able to ascertain, nor, so far as I am aware, has it ever been decided by analysts or sugar experts.  It is beyond the accomplishment of the average bee-keeper to determine by evaporation the amount of moisture in a given sample of honey; but by close observation of the specific gravity of the class of honey he raises, he will in a short time have a serviceable guide as to its fitness for market at any time.  During my term as Government Apiarist I tested over 100 samples of different grades of honey (see Bulletin No.  18 on Bee-Culture), by the hydrometer, in order, if possible, to formulate a standard specific gravity for ripe honey of different varieties.  Though I had not completed my investigations, the tests made of clover honey, which constituted more than three-fourths of them, lead me to believe that any of this class showing a density of 1.420 or over is fit for market.  Though I cannot speak so positively of other varieties, I have little doubt that a similar density would denote a fair degree of ripeness.  It must be understood that in speaking of “clover honey,” I mean that the bulk of a given sample had been gathered from white clover blossoms, of which fortunately we can raise plenty in New Zealand. 

"RIPENING HONEY INSIDE AND OUTSIDE THE HIVE. 
Little need be said with regard to ripening honey inside the hive, as the capping or sealing of the honey cells is generally understood to indicate that the contents are ripe.  Some bee-keepers, however, consider it necessary to leave the honey in the hive for some little time after it is capped to be certain of it being thoroughly ripened.  I know a few who leave all the surplus honey on the hives till the last of the season, which, in my opinion, is unnecessary and a very wasteful way of working an apiary. 

"With regard to extracting honey from combs partly capped and finishing the ripening outside the hive, I maintain in the absence of chemical proof to the contrary, and so far as the palate can detect, that equally as good honey for marketing purposes can be produced in this manner as in the more costly method of ripening within the hive. 

"RIPENING HONEY OUTSIDE THE HIVE. 
My experience in this matter goes back to the sea-son of 1883-1884, when my first experiment was with ten tons of clover honey, and it was so successful that I have continued the method since, both as a private bee-keeper and as Director of the New Zealand Government Apiaries with equal success. 

"As I have already pointed out, during a heavy flow of honey, when it is left in the hive to ripen it is neces-sary to keep adding top boxes to take advantage of the flow, as the honey will be stored faster than it can be ripened.  This means the providing of a large quantity of extra material and combs at considerable cost.  Each top box would be worth at least 2s.  6d., and the nine frames of comb at 1s.  3d.  each, 11s.  3d., making a total of 13s.  9d.; and two of these extra boxes may sometimes be needed for each hive if full advantage is to be taken of the conditions mentioned. 

"RIPENING AND MATURING TANKS. 
The most effective method of ripening and maturing honey is to expose a large surface of comparatively shallow mass to a warm, dry, atmosphere.  Even when the honey is allowed to ripen within the hive it is necessary to have shallow tanks to mature or clarify it, for, no matter how small in the mesh the strainer may be or how carefully the honey is strained, it is impossible to prevent very fine particles of wax and pollen-grains running from the extractor into the tank with the honey.  If the body of the honey is deep these particles cannot rise to the surface as they do in a shallow tank, forming a scum, which, when skimmed off, leaves the honey in the very best form for market.  Air-bubbles, which in themselves may contain moisture (and it is absolutely certain that honey containing air-bubbles quickly deteriorates), cannot rise or escape through a deep mass of honey. 
 
"The tank shown in Fig. 76 is, as indicated, 6 ft. long, 4 ft. wide in the two compartments, and 20 in. deep, outside measurements; and calculated to hold about 1,250 lbs. of honey in each compartment.  It represents those in use at the Government Apiaries, which are made of 1¼ in. timber, and lined with stout tin. Of course, each bee-keeper will decide for himself as to the size of his tanks, but the depth should be limited to from 20 to 24 in. at most. 

"For an apiary of, say, two hundred colonies, two such tanks as the double tank illustrated would in most cases answer the purpose.  There is a great advantage in dividing the tanks into compartments, so that the honey from each day's extracting may be left undisturbed until it has matured and is ready to run into tins.  It is unwise to run two or three days' extracting into the same tank, as the frequent disturbance is against the honey maturing properly. "

Fig. 76: www.bushfarms.com/images/ABMHoneyTank.JPG

The Australasian Bee Manual
 
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Michael Bush
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the-ecohouse.com
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« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2012, 05:02:37 AM »

dam your just about in melbourne
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rawfind
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« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2012, 05:55:56 AM »

dam your just about in melbourne


Huh??
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Lone
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« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2012, 07:41:11 AM »

Neil, I'm not sure if they are 20 or 25 litres but I can ask my supplier.

Michael, how on Earth did you come up with that?
Do you know how bees ripen honey?  Do they suck out the moisture, or fan, or something else?  I've heard they ripen it at night.

The mystery seems to be why honey down the bottom of the frame, which has been sitting there as long as the honey on the top, exclusively remains uncapped for so long when apparently it is subjected to the same conditions.

Lone

PS Michael, I read every word of your entry, but I still can't find the joke about the finn, russian and himalayan.  In the downunder section, we integrate humour is a funny thing into all our posts..
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ShaneJ
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« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2012, 08:20:09 AM »

Since the other thread where this was mentioned, I took out one of the frames that had a section that wasn't capped. I used uncapping/scratcher fork thing to scrape over the uncapped section purposefully damaging the cells. Today in between rain I checked and the "damaged" section wass repaired and fully capped.
This frame had maybe a 5x5cm section that wasn't capped. Doing what I did probably isn't best practice but it was an interesting experiment.
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Shane
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