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Author Topic: about that inflation  (Read 3480 times)
kathyp
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« on: March 01, 2012, 12:19:53 PM »

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505144_162-57387655/inflation-not-as-low-as-you-think/
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2012, 12:51:44 PM »

OK, so we have inflation….seems I can’t convince y’all otherwise.

So why are people are still buying billions of $ of US debt at a yield of 2% or less?  Why would capitalists eagerly do something where they are knowingly going to lose nearly 8% a year?  (-8% if we are to believe this article of yours). 

Would you loan out $1000 to somebody at 2% knowing you’re only going to get $940 back next year?  Or would you instead demand at least 8% on your loan so you at least break even?
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kathyp
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« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2012, 01:08:38 PM »

there are probably a number of answers to that. 

they are guaranteed.  we are in better shape than europe.  the same kind of people who were still buying houses when the market was becoming obviously unstable. the bank is paying less the 2% for cash savings.  and this:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/30/us-usa-china-treasuries-idUSTRE75T2MI20110630

owning debt is owning control.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2012, 05:30:59 PM »

Bought some more milk today for $2.49 a gallon.....

I did see gasoline is up to $3.73 here today.  Ouch!

I wonder how high gas will go this time?  With Europe near recession and growth slowing in Asia, demand for oil is suppose to be dropping.  When demand drops, prices are suppose to drop.  Right?  The problem is when investors/speculators start dumping $$$$ into something, the price goes up no matter the circumstances.  Take a look at Apple stock if you don't believe that.

I really don't see the Iran paranoia getting resolved in any positive manner in the near future.  I think we'll be seeing gas in the $4.50 to $5 range this spring.  Supply doesn't matter (as I've been saying), Geo politics and demand is what matters.  Excessive high gas will undoubtly dip us back into recession, killing the demand side again and prices will dip at that point.  If you don't believe a big drop in demand will drop prices like a rock, look at the charts for Natural gas prices!
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« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2012, 06:18:00 PM »

The Natural gas production boom in the Northeast near where some of the largest consumption is has something to do with the price reduction.They are drilling here and lots of it. Gas storage for the Northeast is in deep salt caverns not too far from the drilling sites. This results in needing a lot less compressor units  to move the gas through the system.It is a sign that domestic production of a fossil fuel works on reducing cost. Now if we could just tap our own supply of low sulfur coal which the Clintons sealed in a a national forest area.
There is no threat of the Iranians closing our domestic production or threatening the transport of our gas.

http://www.wnd.com/1998/05/3242/
Power companies had to buy coal from Indonesia to get the same quality.Of course adding to the cost of electricity.
 
And now with giving food to North Korea it can only feed the inflation. Someone has to pay for what we are giving away with virtually nothing in exchange.
I would not be surprised to see inflation surpass the Carter years.
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kathyp
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« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2012, 06:30:03 PM »

oil is traded like any other commodity.  even though OPEC is a big factor in price it's not so much different that the way corn or coffee is traded.  speculation has both good and bad sides.  years ago southwest airlines anticipated a rise in oil costs and locked in its purchase price for several years.  because they did that, they were able to keep prices low, build a loyal base, and keep that base even after their lock passed and prices went up.  

if purchases of commodities were based on real time factors, there would be continual panic every time there was any twitch in any market. consider the floods we had last year that destroyed a lot of the corn and wheat crops.  there was some fluctuation in price, but not what there might have been if people were buying based on real time conditions.

the down  side is that because they are not buying based on real time supply and demand, rather on what they anticipate the supply and demand will be, speculation can drive up the prices with no real cause at the moment.  

we have a lot of oil companies based in this country, but they produce and trade internationally.  the price is based on the international trade of oil, not the local production.  however....there are a lot of US companies which are smaller and would produce just for the US but many of them have been run out of business by regulation and the pulling of permits.  additionally, we have stupid requirements for multiple fuel mixes that take up refining time and run cost up.  we also have a shortage of refineries and it's near impossible to get permits to build new ones.  

some of the things we could do to bring prices down both short and long term are very easy, but have been made either hard, or impossible by this admin.  and yes...on this, the Obama admin is to blame.  

    
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2012, 01:29:09 AM »

But....but.....but....Kathy.......
                  The Fed told us inflation is only 2% !
                               Don't you believe them? !

Old Blue
Where they not only believe that stuff but support it !  in....
Kali-bone-ya
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« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2012, 10:59:29 AM »

The scary thing is we’re going to have to bail out Wall Street AGAIN if the bee keepers are right and inflation is really 8% or more.  The people who bought trillions of dollars of bonds with yields under 2% are going to lose a massive amount of money if y’all are right.  Since the politicians reward failures by the 1%ers, we’ll have to bail them out and take the hit ourselves.  Tack another few trillion on your kids backs.
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« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2012, 11:15:58 AM »

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I would not be surprised to see inflation surpass the Carter years.
13% buzzbee?

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Now if we could just tap our own supply of low sulfur coal which the Clintons sealed in a a national forest area.
Why would you want to tap coal that is more expensive than natural gas?  Once again Clinton with right.

Quote
speculation has both good and bad sides.

I agree with that as long as the wall street bankers are not manipulating the market.  Remember the fake electricity crisis Enron created on the west coast?  Market manipulation.  When the Wall Streeters are buying 85% of the oil contracts, is that really the same as Southwest hedging their future fuel costs, or is it just about short term greed that hurts the entire country?

“Wall Street Fights rule limiting oil speculation”.   That’s WALL STREET, not users like Southwest!  http://money.cnn.com/2012/02/27/markets/oil_speculation_rules/index.htm
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« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2012, 11:34:48 AM »

Steven Chu O's energy secetary told congress the other day that they wanted the gas prices high.

I don't think food and gas is considered in the inflation numbers. ??
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kathyp
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« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2012, 01:01:15 PM »

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That’s WALL STREET, not users like Southwest! 


not so.  who do you think the speculators speculate for?  anyone using or selling a commodity, buys and sells by way of speculators.  they are to the commodity market what traders are to wall street.

Quote
Why would you want to tap coal that is more expensive than natural gas
?

they are not necessarily interchangeable.  you might be able to replace coal fired power plants with gas, but can it be done cost effectively and in a timely fashion.  why would a company even try when the permitting process is so nasty and expensive...+ you can be guaranteed a run in with tree huggers.

Enron was taken care of by the courts.  this is as it should be.  rather than stomping on the entire market, get the bad actors and punish them. 

Quote
The scary thing is we’re going to have to bail out Wall Street AGAIN if the bee keepers are right and inflation is really 8% or more.

no, we are going to bail out fannie and freddie again.  more billions down the crapper.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2012, 01:42:55 PM »

So let me see if I have this right….

You don’t believe the Fed when they report that inflation is low but you DO believe Wall Street when they say speculators are not driving up the price of oil huh  That is almost funny  Smiley

The local power company here just scraped plans to build a multibillion dollar coal fired plant because Natural Gas is cheaper and cleaner than coal.  That happened even after all the time and expense of getting an air permit from the State of Michigan.  Can we admit, JUST ONCE, that Bill Clinton was right?
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kathyp
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« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2012, 02:20:43 PM »

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The scary thing is we’re going to have to bail out Wall Street AGAIN if the bee keepers are right and inflation is really 8% or more.

that's not what i said. 


Quote
The local power company here just scraped plans to build a multibillion dollar coal fired plant because Natural Gas is cheaper and cleaner than coal.

that may be, and i'm all for it.  we still have many coal fired plants that are running fine and coal is cheap as long as the admin doesn't mess with it.  we have an abundance of it.  we export it. 

we also have an abundance, especially in my area, of hydro.  if you can keep the tree huggers from wanting the dams blown up, it's another good, clean, and cheap source of power.

it's not either/or or one single thing.  it's all of those things being used well in each area.  trucking in coal doesn't make sense here when we have hydro.  NG would have been a great option for my area if the tree huggers hadn't gotten the LNG line blocked.  when you have an admin more apt to listen to, and capitulate to, the tree huggers, you are going to have an abundance of Volts and not much else.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2012, 02:25:48 PM »

if you are going to spend tax dollars, why not do what need done?  rather than subsidize electric cars, failing "green " companies, and buying off unions...how about we upgrade our power grid.  not only is it a matter of survival and national security, it could be justified as a legitimate federal project.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2012, 05:32:06 PM »

I believe what I see when I pay my bills.
13 percent inflation,thats not a tiny number,especially now that 47 percent are relying on a government subsidy of one form or another.And when unemployment numbers are as high as they are.If you are comfortable with inflation at 13 percent or more and a jobless rate at the level it is now,I'm happy for you.
And no I didn't think it is a good idea for one person unilaterally (executive order versus states rights)decide what energy forms are off limits to the rest of society.He was caving to enviromentalists,not looking to save the utilities money. It is the motives,not necessarily the results.
 
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« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2012, 06:43:11 PM »

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If you are comfortable with inflation at 13 percent or more and a jobless rate at the level it is now,I'm happy for you.

Heck no, I would really be worried if inflation was at 13%. 

What was the mortgage rate during the Carter years when inflation REALLY was 13%?  It looks like the 30 year was about 18% in 1981. 

There is a RELATIONSHIP between the interest rates people will loan out money and the TRUE rate at which the dollar is inflating.  30 years are now sitting a shade below 4%!!!!  A FAR drop from the Carter years.  Only a fool would lend money at 4% if the dollar is inflating at 13%.  Capitalism and free markets simply don’t believe in the same level of inflation as our bee keepers do.  You can’t both be right.

And on that note…….I will mention I saw $4 gasoline here today!  Sad Sad Sad

For the record, Bernanke DID say that higher oil prices would likely stoke inflation in the near term.
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« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2012, 06:46:30 PM »

when you have an admin more apt to listen to, and capitulate to, the tree huggers, you are going to have an abundance of Volts and not much else.

What would the world be like without trees  Sad

Why don't you like trees  huh
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kathyp
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« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2012, 07:37:30 PM »

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Only a fool would lend money at 4% if the dollar is inflating at 13%

the fed is keeping the interest rate low. 

trees are a crop. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2012, 01:23:12 PM »

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the fed is keeping the interest rate low.
If the fed sets interest rates like you imagine, why didn’t they just “set” them back to 0% in 1981 instead of wreaking the economy with 18% mortgages?  Why didn’t Ronny just “set” them back to 0% when he took over?  The answer is the Fed does not control longer term interest rates, the free market does..  Haven’t we gone over that before?  We don’t have a communist system here, we have capitalism.  Free markets set prices, not the government. 

And on the subject of prices….

I see Milk is on sale at the local Krogers for $1.99 a gallon.  So it has gone from $2.50 to $1.99 in a month.  Is that inflation?  Could we be getting deflation confused with inflation? 

Chicken is cheaper for pound now than 10 years ago.  Eggs are cheaper.  Fish and Beef may be up a little.

I guess if you buy a bunch of processed foods, maybe they’re up this elusive 13%, can’t say, don’t eat that stuff.
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« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2012, 02:52:47 PM »

Milk here is 3.63 a gallon,no reduction in recent times,cheapest chicken,.99 per lb. no reduction, perhaps the government is subsidzing Mi voters?

If this chart is correct,someones paying the difference.
http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile?dDocName=STELPRDC5096546
But it's a government chart .I must be wrong on what I'm paying. Simple average is 3.62,consider your self lucky.
Maybe after bailing out GM they need to prop up the idea that all is good. But thats the conspiracy theory at work.Or is it?
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« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2012, 03:24:46 PM »

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/fed/2006-05-10-fed-explainer_x.htm

http://www.openforum.com/articles/how-the-federal-reserve-sets-interest-rates

i'm sure what you meant to say is that the market should set interest rates. 

one of the reasons they left them high in the carter years is that we did have deflation.... or at least that was what they were worried about.  remember also that we did not have the same import/export ratios then, as we have now.  higher interest and tighter money kept the dollar strong.  right now we have a weak dollar which contributes to higher oil prices and higher prices on all that we import.  the dollar is the default world currency.  oil is traded in dollars.  raising interest rates a point or two would strengthen the dollar and lower some of those costs.  also, the treasury is printing money.  this again weakens the dollar. 

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2012, 03:27:42 PM »

Hate to burst your bubble, but anyone will invest at 4% if the next best they can get is 2%, no matter what the inflation rate is. At least that way they can cut their loss from 13% to 9%.
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« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2012, 09:24:06 PM »

Milk here is 3.63 a gallon,no reduction in recent times,cheapest chicken,.99 per lb. no reduction, perhaps the government is subsidzing Mi voters?
99 cents per pound of chicken.  Isn't that pretty low?  What was it 10 years ago?  10 cents?  Not that I can remember!

I'm not disputing that we have have inflation, the Fed says we do, the CPI numbers say we do.  What I am disputing is that we don't have high inflation as would be suggested by gas prices.  Prices normally DO go up over time.  However some havent' been.  In aggregate prices are slowly rising.

What are you feeding those cows in PA  grin
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« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2012, 09:27:08 PM »

one of the reasons they left them high in the carter years is that we did have deflation
You’re claiming “deflation” during the Carter years and BuzzBee is claiming high inflation.  You can’t both be right!  I’m going to have to go with BuzzBee on this one.

As for the Fed setting interest rates, if you read you own links, you will see that the Fed sets the interest rates on OVERNIGHT loans!  That is far cry from a 10 year loan!  The longer term rates are set by the free market.  We have capitalism, not communism here.  Free markets set prices, not the government.   

As to iddees point, where investors settling for a 4% return on loaned money back in 1981 when inflation was 13%?  You tell me?
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« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2012, 11:24:49 PM »

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one of the reasons they left them high in the carter years is that we did have deflation.... or at least that was what they were worried about.


i think what they called was "stagflation"  smiley  yes there was price inflation much of that due to the interest rates that were raise by volker. the other component was the oil crisis.  
 the market does not control interest rates.  if it did, they'd be higher now and we'd be better off.  it's not about the form of government we have, it's about the form of money management we have.

if ron paul has one thing right, it's his concern with the federal reserve and their manipulation of money and markets...with no oversight.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2012, 05:25:30 PM »

the market does not control interest rates.  if it did, they'd be higher now and we'd be better off.
Where did you come up with this laughable idea that debtors set the interest rates on dollars they borrow!  Re-read that sentence again!  Debtors don’t tell creditors what to do. 

The US Government is the biggest debtor in the world.  To the tune of 15 trillion dollars!  They don’t tell the creditors what to do, it’s just the opposite.  The creditors decide how much risk there is putting their money someplace and DEMAND an appropriate interest rate if the debtor wants to borrow their money. 

Surely there has to be some bee keepers out there who can back up what I’m saying?  Creditors set interest rates, not debtors.
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« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2012, 08:18:39 PM »

spend a little time reading up on the federal reserve and the treasury dept.  between the two, there are very few market forces involved in money, it's value, or the interest rates.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2012, 08:43:49 PM »

The fed is also the largest lender in the world. They set the rates they will lend to the banks at. Then all the smaller lenders fall in line, so whether the lender or borrower sets the rate, it's still the fed. You are arguing the left or right hand of the same person.
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« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2012, 07:28:00 AM »

Big Money has us exactly where they want us; divided and ignorant.  This topic is proof enough for me.

"I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country."  -Thomas Jefferson, 1816

Too late?

t
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« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2012, 09:09:16 AM »

It does not matter if inflation was 2, 4 or 8 percent. or whether you see inflation as high or not.

When your yearly salary is not keeping up with whatever the inflation rate is, it is still going to kill you over time just in small increments.

My wife has been here for twenty years. In that 20 years, her salary has not doubled. But the cost of just about everything else has. Milk, chicken, etc. And the cost of maintaining our home, including medical, electricity, and gas, has also doubled. When she got here 20 years ago, gas was 87 cents per gallon. Now it is 4 dollars per gallon. Her salary is not keeping up with that. And that goes for most folks.

So as example, if she was making 25 dollars per year (50,000 annually) 20 year ago, and now makes 35 dollars per year (70,000 annually), but the household expenses went from 20,000 dollars to 50,000 dollars, are you any better ahead. She has 10,000 less today than 20 year ago.

Businesses are charging twice for their products across the board for most items. But that does not translate into paying their workers double over that same timeframe. Because businesses do not have twice the cash they did even though the products are being sold for twice the cost.

Why is that?

Because what you need to do today to operate a small (or large) business is massive in administration, overhead, and everything else included by piled on with regulations, mandates, and requirements. This does not translate into more taxes for the government, but does play a part in the ever growing levels of government on all levels. The number of folks working at the township building has exploded over those twenty years, the number of administrators and support staff at the schools has double. We have an agency for everyone and everything. The additional small taxes, service fees, permits, and fees just to run a small business today is mind boggling as compared to 20 years ago.

So when inflation is 2 % a year, but the average household or business expense goes up 3 % each year to operate, on a single year basis, who really notices? But factor in that same model over twenty years, and it is staggering to know how far behind we are from 20 years ago.

And I blame the government for this. Just to put on a addition at the school, it will cost 80 million dollars. I think (or thought) they could build a new entire school for 80 million. But then you start looking at the project and the first 20 million go for designers, engineers, permits, environmental requirements, legal expenses, and a host of things before the first shovel of dirt is even dug. It's insane.

On a smaller scale, townships now require permits and fees for everything you can do around your house. Even 6x10 storage sheds required permits and fees. Some townships around here are even starting to charge registration fees for a backyard beehive, even though the state already collects and mandates it. We have money pouring out of our pockets for things twenty years ago they could never of even dreamed about.

So with increased costs going to run a household, with increased fees, taxes, permits, etc., then it just tips the scales that much sooner.

2% inflation is not killing us. It is everything combined with the 2% inflation that is burying folks slowly over time.

Government is causing these problems. But then they get to fool many folks by standing up and pointing fingers at a few select large businesses, and say all these problems will go away if it were not the greedy corporations, what a great plan that is. Greedy corporations have always been around. And on average, they pay very well. Comments like "Big money has us divided and where they want us" is a smoke screen and just points folks in the wrong direction. Get over it. Government is making a killing at the pumps but not a peep. And small businesses make up a huge portion of the economy, which has nothing to do with "big money". I think government red tape trumps big greedy businesses everytime in who impacts and controls inflation, expenses, etc. Most folks are not employed by huge businesses. 

Many folks are being strangled, while debating whether 2% inflation is high or low. Your missing the point.
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« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2012, 10:38:40 AM »

Blaming the government is what's easy BjornBee, especially easy in an election year.  

IMO its also lazy, unless one is actively working to make change in government and not just complaining or blaming.

It also amounts to a smoke screen whenever convenient to the fanners of flames, regardless of the chosen side of stone throwers.

Truth be told; We wouldn't have 'complex regulations and tax codes' unless the status quo wasn't dependant on them.

True wages (not necessarily income) have been stagnant for the middle and lower classes pretty much since leaving the 'gold standard' behind under Nixon in 1972.  Despite steady increases in productivity and GDP.

Not coincidentally, this also occurred when revenues on 'some' incomes, "unearned income" specifically, began taking a hit (from 70% to its current average of 15%), CEO's incomes began growing at astronomical rates, deregulations of the way Health Care (Insurance) was provided and 'bets against American success' were began on Wall-Street, with the HOUSING Industry and its victims left in the dust to clean up and pay up w/ this latest scam conducted on us all.  

Under mostly false pretenses (lying) the rich started getting richer faster than at any previous time in history, to include the robber baron era.

Paying more at the pump, huh?  Does anyone else think it just might have something to do with the fact that in 2011 BIG OIL 'EXPORTED' more American oil than at any other time in history?  That's right folks, check it out for your selves.  

2011 was another 'record" year for BIG OIL.  Most Americans still believe American produced and refined oil 'stays' in America.......NOT!

In 2011 we emptied our TEXAS refineries for quick profits in Asia, Europe and Latin America, to the tune of 117 million gallons per day.  All while we listened to the whining and 'deliberately confusing' debate over the KEYSTONE PIPELINE, the 1700 mile (target?) 'gift' to BIG OIL running through the middle of America and more drilling on and off-shore.  

TransCanada has already admitted that the majority (up to 80%) of Canadian Tar Sand Oil running through that pipe will be going to Asia and Europe, yet the BIG OIL puppets will yap endlessly about the urgent 'need' to build it for the benefit of 'all' Americans.  There's that cat  Wink

Truth is, us Americans can't buy our own gas fast enough to satisfy the only motive of BIG OIL these days.  Sell gas, make money (GREED).  

THE MORE OIL THEY SHIP OVERSEAS THE LESS THERE IS AT HOME THE MORE THEY CAN CHARGE US FOR IT (and/or convince us we need to drill for more).  See the web yet?

To add insult to injury, the NATURAL GAS Industry is now lobbying hard to get Congress to allow for the EXPORTATION of OUR Natural Gas.  You know, all that gas just sitting under America that is 'supposed' to save us  rolleyes  making us independent from the Middle East and all that crap  shocked shocked shocked.

For the first time in our history fuel EXPORTS have a bigger dollar value than 'all' other American made export products.  

This absolute control and manipulation of a (LAND RESOURCE) product that IMO belongs to all of America (at least that's what they keep telling us every day, as a reason to 'drill baby drill') is the most glaring problem with our current blind acceptance of an economic system that only favors the already well-off.  

While supporting this 'unsustainable' system will eventually spell our collective doom, it will also spell theirs  cool.  It may very well be the only way  huh huh  

The wise among us already know who the survivors will be  Wink

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« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2012, 11:45:06 AM »

I could care less about your political position. While I agree with some of the details, I could pass on your  position that you know better than anyone else.

The conversation at hand, was a debate of whether there was, or was not, inflation. My last post was an over view of sorts of what is happening to many folks. But you need to offer rebuttals thinking everyone else but you is throwing stones or fanning flames. Not one comment in my last post was political, and except for perhaps you, probably was read differently than your unique way of interpretation.

Anybody can pick one large business such as oil, claim they are to blame, call them greedy, and state what you did.

Giving tacit approval or completely ignoring governments involvement does what? Does that really help, claiming others who feel the government is part of the blame, by suggesting this is some election year scheme.

I think I will pay more attention to the PMs of those who keep telling me I'm wasting my time even discussing these things with you.

Yes, the world is not perfect. Corporations are out to make money. But I fail to understand how you can give government a complete pass, claiming anyone who mentions them as part of the problem, as nothing more than political hacks.

Your stance that everyone is "lazy" unless they are actively trying to make change, is shown by what? I have no clue who is active or not. And I find comments such as those you continue to suggest about others useless chatter.

Have a good one.
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« Reply #32 on: March 05, 2012, 12:30:18 PM »

+1000 everything T said. 

Not one comment in my last post was political, and except for perhaps you, probably was read differently than your unique way of interpretation.
 

And now from the previous post…..

I blame the government for this. Just to put on a addition at the school…... It's insane.

On a smaller scale, townships now require permits and fees for everything you can do around your house…….

increased fees, taxes, permits, etc., then it just tips the scales that much sooner.

Government is causing these problems.  But then they get to fool many folks by standing up and pointing fingers …… Government is making a killing at the pumps but not a peep. ……I think government red tape trumps big greedy businesses everytime in who impacts and controls inflation, expenses, etc. Most folks are not employed by huge businesses. 
 

OK.

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« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2012, 12:53:11 PM »

+1000 everything T said.  

Not one comment in my last post was political, and except for perhaps you, probably was read differently than your unique way of interpretation.
 

And now from the previous post…..

I blame the government for this. Just to put on a addition at the school…... It's insane.

On a smaller scale, townships now require permits and fees for everything you can do around your house…….

increased fees, taxes, permits, etc., then it just tips the scales that much sooner.

Government is causing these problems.  But then they get to fool many folks by standing up and pointing fingers …… Government is making a killing at the pumps but not a peep. ……I think government red tape trumps big greedy businesses everytime in who impacts and controls inflation, expenses, etc. Most folks are not employed by huge businesses.  
 

OK.



Political means to me choosing a side or blaming one side or the other. Every one of my statements, clearly stated I was referencing a 20 year period. So now even mentioning governments part in the working of the economy, and it is "political'. there are a few "political" folks on here, but it is not me.

And since you agree 1000%, that it has nothing to do with government, let me just list a couple things you might understand as to my comments that beyond taxes, a drain on income comes from added areas mandated or required by government.

Vehicle emissions testing.... 1992 - No fee    2012 - 32.95 per vehicle. (I have four vehicles, meaning I have 131,80 less in today's dollars than I had 20 years ago. Go ahead and try to blame that on big oil.  grin

Apiary registration ...............  1992 - No fee.   2012 - 10 dollars.

Chew on those awhile. If you need more, I can list them also. My electric bill and the added fees over the past 20 years will amaze you.  Wink You can't even buy tires today without mandated disposal fees. And if you listed everything today, as compared to 20 years ago, the list is really long. And many are mandated or required by the government on all levels.

These two examples are probably more in line with households. But we could also start a list of items that are burying small business also. Items not really calculated in inflation, but fees required to be paid to operate today.

But yeah....you keep saying government is not part of the problem of why folks today have less purchasing power as they did years ago.
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« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2012, 12:58:37 PM »

But yeah....you keep saying government is not part of the problem of why folks today have less purchasing power as they did years ago.
Oh, how contraire!  I have always said the Republicans are a big part of the problem.  They’ve given our jobs to China and transferred our wealth to the top 1%.  Did you miss that thread?
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« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2012, 01:10:48 PM »

But yeah....you keep saying government is not part of the problem of why folks today have less purchasing power as they did years ago.
Oh, how contraire!  I have always said the Republicans are a big part of the problem.  They’ve given our jobs to China and transferred our wealth to the top 1%.  Did you miss that thread?

Yawn......


Are you in complete agreement with t-beek 1000% or not? You said you are. That is what I went with.


Now your becoming political after falsely claiming I was. Just change the point, and slide away. But I see that it is your view that it was the republicans "mainly" responsible for anything you selectively choose. I would not expect anything less from you.

You really think folks today don't see through this tit for tat "choose your side" and blame 100% of the problems on one party or the other?

Thank goodness for the many more sensible folks who see both sides for what they are.  Wink  Many folks are beyond that partisan stuff. You should catch up. A real shame that a simple discussion on inflation, turns political after some suggest that government is not any part of the problems. And you agree 1000% with them. Makes your thread either wrong, or your completely lost on the facts. You can't agree with another person 1000% on a stance that it is not the government but big oil as the one responsible, while claiming something else on another thread. Well...I guess I am wrong. Yes you can!
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« Reply #36 on: March 05, 2012, 01:13:59 PM »

C'mon BjornBee; for someone who claims they "could care less"  you've sure provided us w/ an ample, albeit a denigrating  Wink response, so glad you find I'm still worthy  grin  

But now, back to the content;  Of which you addressed; NOTHING

If you had been paying attention to my words, instead of presuming to already know, you'd know very well that I've NEVER tried to let the government or its servants off the hook for its involvement in the troubles of the day.  I am merely forced to point out OVER AND OVER AND OVER to those who don't know or don't want to believe or accept that WE ARE THE GOVERNMENT.  

Some I've found, including you, seem to have a real dislike for that.  Sorry man, but sometimes your (and other)comments deserve an alternative response and viewpoint, whether 'you' think so or not.  Talk about pompous  rolleyes  

If you don't like what I'm saying or can't/won't challenge the 'content' rationally, why respond at all?  As I keep telling folks, I used to work for the government so I'm used to being ignored by all kinds of folks grin  It really was part of the job  Wink

OK, So unless you are also blaming "US" (all of us) whenever you blame government you're gonna loose me and if watching I'll challenge the thought, despite the denigrating comments that come along with it  Wink.  

I guess that still might be called looking at the BIG picture IMO  grin.

"Entertaining another's thought/opinion without accepting it is a sign of ones intelect"  -Aristotle

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« Reply #37 on: March 05, 2012, 03:49:58 PM »

Thank goodness for the many more sensible folks who see both sides for what they are.  Wink  Many folks are beyond that partisan stuff. You should catch up.

Hmmmm....then we have this.....

Obamas got a point.  lau  He is a moron, just barely smart enough to fool half of the voters who happened to be bigger morons, vote for him.  Wink

Some proverb about a pot and a kettle come to mind about now…. cheesy
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« Reply #38 on: March 05, 2012, 04:31:35 PM »

Thank goodness for the many more sensible folks who see both sides for what they are.  Wink  Many folks are beyond that partisan stuff. You should catch up.

Hmmmm....then we have this.....

Obamas got a point.  lau  He is a moron, just barely smart enough to fool half of the voters who happened to be bigger morons, vote for him.  Wink

Some proverb about a pot and a kettle come to mind about now…. cheesy


I hope you didn't waste too much time looking for that.  Wink

I guess taking something out of context, from another discussion, is about what I would expect. So I agreed with someone on another thread calling Obama voters idiots, as I remember most being fooled about some "hope and change". Funny how those bumpers stickers came off only after a few months. So yeah, I think many folks who voted for obama were idiots, thinking that he was going to actually do everything he promised. I had friends say that within two years we would be off oil. That the only reason we were not already was Bush. Yeah, I heard all that before. Superman was supposed to walk again if certain people got elected, and we all know how that ended. But that means what in this discussion? Who cares? Not even relevant to this discussion. If you look hard enough, oh wait, I'll save you the time....just in this thread alone, I trashed all those in politics. I don't like government across the board. Hmmmm....now what does that show? Is that the "politics" as you call it.  lau  Sounds to me, that my message is right on target about Government, or is at least a tad bit less partisan than yours position.

So be careful about calling pots and kettles. Your much more closer than I am, buying into one side or the other. I played my comments right down the middle on this discussion. It was you who want to keep dividing it with your playbook stuff. But I would venture to guess that no matter my position, you would feel the need to express your self imposed superior stance on everything.

When your pulling out comments from last year, and resort to the old "Pot calling the kettle black" rhetoric, I must be hitting a nerve. Cause you certainly have not taken on much more than that in this discussion.  rolleyes
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« Reply #39 on: March 05, 2012, 06:16:14 PM »

OK, if you’re finally ready to get off your high horse and stop denigrating everybody else, let's get to the facts.  applause applause applause

Let’s explore your electricity claims:  According to PG&E their current rate for residential customers is 18 cents per kw-hour.  In 1996 it is 13 cents per kw-hour.  That averages out to about a 2% increase per year.  Is that your definition of high inflation?   http://www.pge.com/tariffs/electric.shtml#RESELEC

Even at a low inflation rate of 2%, things will EVENTUALLY double in price.  Complaining that prices keep going up in absolute values is being disingenuous to the debate; of course they go up unless we are deflating.  Pay no attention to your home values dropping like a rock….

What we're debating here is rather or not we are inflating at 2%, 8%, or 13%.  The DATA says 2% but our bee keepers seem to know something the experts don’t.  If we were inflating at 8%, then your electricity would be more like 44 cents per kw-hour.  Is that what you are paying per kilowatt hour along with your $4 milk?
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« Reply #40 on: March 05, 2012, 07:20:45 PM »

OK, if you’re finally ready to get off your high horse and stop denigrating everybody else, let's get to the facts.  applause applause applause


Grow up.


Let’s explore your electricity claims:  According to PG&E their current rate for residential customers is 18 cents per kw-hour.  In 1996 it is 13 cents per kw-hour.  That averages out to about a 2% increase per year.  Is that your definition of high inflation?   http://www.pge.com/tariffs/electric.shtml#RESELEC


Are you even reading or considering other people's comments. I specifically stated that my bill went up eluding to the fact it was other fees and taxes, beyond the narrow minded approach of just the kilowatt fee. Things like transmission fees, maintenance fees, taxes so every person can have internet and so on.

Even at a low inflation rate of 2%, things will EVENTUALLY double in price.  Complaining that prices keep going up in absolute values is being disingenuous to the debate; of course they go up unless we are deflating.  Pay no attention to your home values dropping like a rock….


Who is complaining? I went to great length to state that it was not 2% killing folks. it was losing 1% every year, while being killed with new fees, taxes, etc., that is not even covered in the inflation rate.

What we're debating here is rather or not we are inflating at 2%, 8%, or 13%.  The DATA says 2% but our bee keepers seem to know something the experts don’t.  If we were inflating at 8%, then your electricity would be more like 44 cents per kw-hour.  Is that what you are paying per kilowatt hour along with your $4 milk?


Who is debating 2, 8 or 13%  I used those rates to make a complete other point. nobody but you is debating those rates. Looking at one item, and suggesting that if overall inflation was some made up number by you, that electricity should be this particular number, is useless.

Funny how you select which items you want to pick to make your points to your favor. But mention gas 20 years ago at 87 cents per gallon. and you don't want to even mention that.

And when I mentioned milk at 4 dollars (4.09 to be exact) with buzzbee backing up that he being right up the road is paying 3.63, you seemingly scoffed as if I was making that up and full of crap.

I mentioned new taxes, fees, and other factors at play, and even backed it up with examples, of how the average homeowner is being squeezed, and yet, you gloss right over that, and limit the discussion to what you want to talk about, while dismissing others who have tried to carry the discussion along, regardless of your comments.

Go ahead, I'm finshed playing this game.
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« Reply #41 on: March 05, 2012, 08:19:27 PM »

as an example:  the bill for my beach house, used little most of the year, went like this....

303 kwh  

basic charge                                 9.00
delivery charge                              11.44
tax                                                .36
supply charge block                      16.11
public purpose (welfare)                 1.11
energy conservation charge              .79
low income assistance (welfare)        .85
two separate dam removals total       .41


now that may not seem like much of an add on, but most of that is some kind of tax.  i haven't even pulled my big bill, but if you want, i'll share that with you also.  do we even know what most of this crap is?  why am i paying for a dam removal that will drive my bill up?  i didn't want the thing down.  let the tree huggers pay for it.  why am i paying for someone's heat bill when i have to keep my own temps down to save?  what is the energy conservation charge?  for that little use, i should be getting a conservation credit.

total bill ends up at 38.47 and near as i can tell, i used 9 bucks worth of power.
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« Reply #42 on: March 05, 2012, 09:04:51 PM »

Kathyp, good to see real data!  Most people refer to the rate they pay for electrical power as a composite of all these things you noted.  Most people realize that power doesn’t go from point A to point B through thin air, it goes through expensive to build (and maintain) transmission lines. 

So your total bill ended up being $38.47.  That’s 3847 cents for 303kwh of power.  3847/303 = 12.6 cents per kw-hour.  A very economical rate compared to some other parts of the country.  Your hydropower is cheap.  Here in Michigan we’re about 12 cents per kw-hour too and yes that includes all the other little fees some people obsess over. 

Looks like PA is around 13 cents when all is combined.  According to the DATA, PA electricity is only up about 6% in 20 years.  So that’s 0.3% per year.  http://www.puc.state.pa.us/electric/electric_index.aspx.  Data is more important than opinion in debates.  Some people just like to throw up straw men to obscure the data.
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« Reply #43 on: March 05, 2012, 09:36:30 PM »

Opps, looks like that sub link to the PA electricity rates is not working.  You can go here and click on the numbers tell the story if you’re interested in some data.  http://www.puc.state.pa.us/electric/electric_index.aspx

The fact of the matter is; picking electrical rates as an example of run away inflation is a poor choice if you’re trying to debate a case for high inflation.  The fact is electrical rates have really been near a flat line for a VERY long time, unless you live far away from coal, NG, or hydro. 

Same thing can be said of computers, TVs, electronics, etc.  All these things have taken a big dive in prices as manufacturing has moved from high cost labor in the USA to pennies on the dollar in China.  My first computers cost well over $2000 each.  Now they’re under $500. 

What has been going up is stuff that includes American labor in it.  Sad but true.  Food, Medical Care, Education, Roads, Construction, etc.   These things and global commodities HAVE been rapidly rising, I don’t dispute that.  However when you combine everything together, the net sum of inflation is still low to modest……for the time being.
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« Reply #44 on: March 06, 2012, 07:17:24 PM »

This may be a little overly simplistic: If I had A LOT of money and wanted more; I would buy a tankership load of crude and then have the captain of said ship stop at the Bahamas for a week.  evil 
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« Reply #45 on: March 06, 2012, 09:27:21 PM »

The Wall Street Bankers are one step ahead of you!  The bankers played that game on the oil run up in 2007 and 2008 and again after the oil crash of 2008.  It’s called contango (actually taking advantage of contango).  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil-storage_trade
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contango
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« Reply #46 on: March 07, 2012, 08:30:24 AM »

 shocked  Little surprise here that while prices rise at the pumps BIG OIL is setting 'profit' records selling American OIL to overseas buyers. 

Just wait;  once our refineries are emptied (won't be long now) then the real money will be made and the masses will again be told to 'drill baby drill' or 'build that pipeline' or 'extract that gas' so BIG OIL/GAS can sell off more of 'our' oil/gas to keep their profits up.

As an aside to this issue, I just read a recent report on fracking and how it has been based on some blatant industry lies.  Some recent science has now shown that the amount of NATURAL GAS  lying below American soil was/is largely inflated. 

For those paying attention, the NATUARL GAS INDUSTRY has been telling us that American Natural Gas dwarfs Saudi OIL with as much as 200 years worth of energy for 'AMERICA', but now science has found there may be 'less than 50' years worth. 

Of course this does not take into consideration that MONEY is the most important motive for these folks and they are hellbent on selling "OUR" Natural Gas, just like 'our' oil, to the highest bidder (that's not us).  BIG OIL/GAS does not care about America or Americans, they care about themselves and their money, just like any sociopath would. 

We should not be fooled into believing they are here for us  rolleyes

Natural Gas (unknown to most, the Industry is in very deep debt trouble) may very well turn out to be the NEXT BUBBLE to burst, even before Student Loan debt. 

Turns out its easier to squeeze blood out of students (who cannot go bankrupt) than getting any honesty from BIG OIL/GAS.  shocked  rolleyes

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« Reply #47 on: March 07, 2012, 12:43:32 PM »

As usual T, I think you’re about spot on with your analysis.

I’ve been paying attention to Nat Gas and you’re right the drillers are sitting on a huge valuation (stock) bubble while their income is dropping like a rock.  The price of Nat Gas has already collapsed in monumental proportions.  The companies haven’t collapsed yet, but they are sitting on massive debts and wells that cost more to operate than they get back in profit. 

I do find it a little suspicious that they’re now coming up with reports that the supply of Natural Gas may only be 50 years as opposed to 200 years.  This sounds to me more like the big drillers are just trying to spook people (Wall Street Bankers) to drive the prices up so they can resume making huge profits from NG.  The whole LNG thing is also just a way to get prices to rise at home.

BTW, I don’t think anybody in the Natural Gas industry is going to listen to our bee keeps who claim we are experiencing massive inflation!
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« Reply #48 on: March 07, 2012, 03:03:08 PM »

I have similar suspicions with regards to any sincerity from the industry.  They do not care about America or Americans.  It really is that simple.

t
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