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Author Topic: Feeding pollen dry.  (Read 3711 times)
JackM
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« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2012, 08:56:12 AM »

And are you a Paramedic?  Not too many use the term.  Retired one here.
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« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2012, 09:14:26 AM »

Even if wax does not include protein, synthesis and running entzymatic systems use proteins.


Enzymes don't wear out because they are more active.  grin   It is true that enzyme levels in an organism vary depending on what the organism is doing at that moment.  But the amounts of protein required for making enzymes is VERY small compared to the amount of protein needed for muscle.  If the bees needed to make extra enzymes, they could easily get that protein by breaking down some muscle tissue.  They would not have to eat more.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 11:11:48 AM by FRAMEshift » Logged

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Finski
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« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2012, 09:41:16 AM »

Even if wax does not include protein, synthesis and running entzymatic systems use proteins.


Enzymes don't wear out because they are more active.  grin   It is true that enzyme levels in an organism vary depending on what the organism is doing at that moment.  But the amounts of protein required for making enzymes is VERY small compared to the  the amount of protein needed for muscle.  If the bees needed to make extra enzymes, they could easily get that protein by breaking down some muscle tissue.  They would not have to eat more.


You write something which is dwawn purely from sleave.
It seems that you do not understand enzymes and proteins not at all. Sorry to say that. Enzymes and muscle making. Nothing to do each other. Note that I have studied biology in university. Don't fool me.

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Finski
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« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2012, 09:47:26 AM »


http://www.honeybee.com.au/Library/pollen/nutrition.html

NUTRITIONAL REQUIREMENTS OF HONEY BEES
Bee body-protein

Bees store protein in their body, and use it to make wings, muscles and other body organs. The higher the level of protein in their bodies, the stronger the bees are and the longer they can live.

Bees can have a very high body-protein of over 60% crude protein, at which time they are strong, long-lived bees, with the ability to collect lots of honey. Or at the other extreme they can have low body-protein of less than 30% (Kleinschmidt 1988). When bees have low body-protein they will live only a short time, suffer from diseases like European brood disease (EBD) and nosema, and be very poor honey producers.

High body-protein bees are essential in autumn, so the bees can combat nosema, overwinter in strong condition, and have plenty of body-protein to use for hive build-up in the spring. Bees with a low body-protein in the autumn will generally not overwinter well, will be susceptible to nosema and "spring dwindles" and possibly have restricted breeding in the spring.

Bee body-protein is reduced by honey production, cold or hot weather, wax production, and an increase in breeding, especially during the spring build-up period.

Bee body-protein will increase if the bees are getting plenty of pollen with more than 20% digestible crude protein, especially if they are not stressed by heavy honey production and extremes in weather.

Bee body-protein is a good measure of the hives' ability to survive winter, collect good honey crops, and overcome many of the bee diseases, like European brood disease or chalk brood. The higher the body-protein level, the better the bees will be able to collect economic yields of honey, pollinate crops, and produce queen bees.

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Finski
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« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2012, 10:04:34 AM »

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Perhaps the need of protein is not essential in wax production.
When we think package bees, they draw combs without help of pollen foraging.
Same happens with swarms. They do not forage much pollen but they draw quite fast combs.

Here is 13 pages protein text and nothing has been menitioned about needs of wax makig.
http://www.culturaapicola.com.ar/apuntes/revistaselectronicas/apidologie/21-5/04.pdf
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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2012, 10:53:10 AM »

Note that I have studied biology in university. Don't fool me.

Reminds me of a funny song named "Virginia Woman" (by Tully Richards) that was played at my doctoral final defense party (yes, it was for a degree in Biochemistry, specifically enzyme kinetics and regulation  grin)   The lyrics go like this:

"If you don't think I can love you baby, I'm gonna show you my lover's degree.  I'm gonna reach right in and pull out my PhD."    Finski, I wouldn't dream of trying to fool you.  

In fact... I'm so impressed I'm changing my signature line to immortalize your university studies.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 11:18:40 AM by FRAMEshift » Logged

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BlueBee
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« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2012, 11:23:00 AM »

The harmony of that low buzz coming from the bee hive in the winter reminds me of the harmony among bee keepers  Smiley
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Finski
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« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2012, 11:45:50 AM »

[In fact... I'm so impressed I'm changing my signature line to immortalize your university studies.

You cannot affect to it nothing. What I learned there was desire to find facts and skill how find them.
I do not give much value to opinions if facts are present. - I am bad in that.
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Finski
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« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2012, 11:53:41 AM »

winter reminds me of the harmony among bee keepers  Smiley


We had a singer band "harmony sisters" but it is long time ago 1936-1950.




Harmony Sisters - Liisa pien' / Kodin kynttilät (1942)
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hardwood
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« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2012, 12:08:46 PM »

Finski, you must have been a mere teenager when that was filmed ! grin

Scott
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rdy-b
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« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2012, 01:01:10 PM »

**Australian researching tells that when hives have longtime heavy flow, the brooding of colony collapses.**

 the collapse they speak of is not due to WAX PRODUCTION ---what happens is the colony forages for honey
 they burn up there protein and vitilogene reservers stored in there body-to replenish this forage bees actually
 beg for jelly from the nurse bees--the bees transfer jelly via trophallaxis to parts of the colony in need of protein
 they just dont reserve this for new brood and bees--this creates a dip in brood rearing--colonies coming off honey flows
 are deprived of protein-they burned it foraging--same thing often happens in pollination of row crops where there is no flow but a small amount of pollen-the hive has a economy with its reserves of protein--extreme cases of this are witnessed
 by the cannibalism of brood-- cool RDY-B
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Finski
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« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2012, 01:32:19 PM »

Finski, you must have been a mere teenager when that was filmed ! grin

Scott

I was only a blink in my father's eye.
Film has been made during war, I suppose.
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CapnChkn
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« Reply #32 on: March 06, 2012, 12:18:19 PM »

Quote
It does makes sense to me that they might require protein to make enzymes and that enzymes may be required to make wax.  But I have not seen any research that says that.
To disambiguate and simplify.  Mostly proteins are enzymes are catalysts.  The presence of these chemicals allows a reaction to happen at either a different temperature or environment.

Hormones are proteins that tell your bodies cells how to build the sexual structures that define gender.  So quintessentially, the proteins are necessary to form the waxes.  What the waxes are made from is relative, as all chemistry in the body is centered around CHON, Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, and Nitrogen.

As you could imagine, the wax will not be synthesized without the pollens necessary to supply the nitrogen used in the production of those proteins.  Any production will use the proteins, so after what's stored is used, the bees would drop or cease production.  The sugars are C, H, and O, so the waxes will also have to have a chemistry without Nitrogen if made primarily from sugars.
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rdy-b
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« Reply #33 on: March 06, 2012, 01:05:56 PM »

** So quintessentially, the proteins are necessary to form the waxes.  What the waxes are made from is relative, as all chemistry in the body is centered **

 we dont dispute that proteins are used-  cheesy-its a transfer of energy to a DEGREE--its not a
 TAXING event for the protein reserves -much in the same way energy is used when the bee
 breaths it is using protein as a machine burns fuel-takes a defined amount of labor to burn
 all the fuel -before refueling must occur--WAX production in itself is not the depleting factor-- cool RDY-B
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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #34 on: March 06, 2012, 05:14:44 PM »


To disambiguate and simplify.  Mostly proteins are enzymes are catalysts.  The presence of these chemicals allows a reaction to happen at either a different temperature or environment.

Yes, enzymes are protein catalysts. That means that they are not consumed in the reaction.  They facilitate a reaction and speed it up, but the enzyme molecule is left unchanged when the reaction is complete. So the enzyme can catalyze the same reaction over and over.  For that reason, there may be few copies of an enzyme at any given moment.  That means that the amount of protein tied up in the enzyme molecules is tiny.   There would always be enough spare protein in a bee to make necessary enzymes.
Quote


As you could imagine, the wax will not be synthesized without the pollens necessary to supply the nitrogen used in the production of those proteins.  Any production will use the proteins, so after what's stored is used, the bees would drop or cease production.  The sugars are C, H, and O, so the waxes will also have to have a chemistry without Nitrogen if made primarily from sugars.
In general the sugar alcohols and long chain fatty acids that compose wax do not contain any nitrogen.  Again, protein shortage would not be a factor.  Wax is not made from protein.
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Finski
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« Reply #35 on: March 07, 2012, 02:04:49 AM »

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What are we debating? Wax has no nitrogen. we know that.

Do you know, does a human needs protein to make his daily  feces?

Yes he needs. For example the epithelium of the gut renews every 4 th day.

When bees move syrup from feeding container to the combs and cap it, processing takes 24% from the original sugar. When animals eate forage, it is very effective if chicken of container grown salmon can store 30% of its food. The rest 70% goes to processing the food.

It is said that beed do not eate pollen in winter cluster. But why they eate it during the whole long winter and then their abdomen is full of empty pollen cells. What we know about that?

When I start patty feeding after winter and I give them the first patty, they wolf down first patties in couple of days even if they do not have larvae.



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CapnChkn
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« Reply #36 on: March 07, 2012, 09:12:48 PM »

Yep!

That pretty well exhausts my knowledge on the subject.  I couldn't tell you what proteins may be destroyed in the process, or which would continue to do the job.  Point I was trying to make is the wax doesn't have Nitrogen in it, and as a result would have to be composed of non-nitrogenous material from the proteins, or from a simpler source, the sugars.
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Finski
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« Reply #37 on: March 07, 2012, 10:31:15 PM »


 Point I was trying to make is the wax doesn't have Nitrogen in it, and as a result would have to be composed of non-nitrogenous material from the proteins, or from a simpler source, the sugars.


Here is the "most simple process", using sugar as energy.
Most of those names are proteins. They are needed to loose out the energy from sugar

Stages are about 50 in Crebs cycle.





WE may describe that same thing with glycolysis

Glycolysis
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 10:42:48 PM by Finski » Logged

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Finski
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« Reply #38 on: March 07, 2012, 10:49:27 PM »

.

Synthesis of beewax? You think that it is simple.
At least it takes energy. To make 1 kg wax, bees need 6 kg honey.

Beewax chemical composition

wax is formed from a mixture of several compounds.
(wikipedia)

Wax Content Type Percent
hydrocarbons 14%
monoesters 35%
diesters 14%
triesters 3%
hydroxy monoesters 4%
hydroxy polyesters 8%
acid esters 1%
acid polyesters 2%
free acids 12%
free alcohols 1%
unidentified 6%

An approximate chemical formula for beeswax is C15H31COOC30H61.[3]

Its main components are palmitate, palmitoleate, hydroxypalmitate[4] and oleate esters of long-chain (30-32 carbons) aliphatic alcohols, with the ratio of triacontanyl palmitate CH3(CH2)29O-CO-(CH2)14CH3 to cerotic acid[5] CH3(CH2)24COOH, the two principal components, being 6:1. Beeswax can be classified generally into European and Oriental types. The ratio of saponification value is lower (3-5) for European beeswax, and higher (8-9) for Oriental types.

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CapnChkn
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« Reply #39 on: March 08, 2012, 09:06:46 PM »

I leave the organic analysis to my brother, an organic chemist.  Though if I ask, I'm liable to hear about what the process of gasification is actually called rather than a rundown of the synthesis of plastics via bee abdomen.

But that's actually informative Finski!  Cool!  Thank you!
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