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Author Topic: Feeding pollen dry.  (Read 3751 times)
sawdstmakr
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« on: February 29, 2012, 12:07:17 PM »

Being located in Florida, I've been told if you put pollen patties in the hive, the SHB love them and really get out of control. I tried mixing the pollen substute with sugar but that does not work to well. Most of the pollen gets waisted.
Is there a way to make a feeder that you can fee them the powder dry. It will have to be protected from getting wet. I have thought about using a upside down bucket with a hole in the bottom and a container inside.

If I feed pollen close to the hives, will it cause robbing like sugar water does?

Let me know what you think.
Jim
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Finski
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« Reply #1 on: February 29, 2012, 12:46:59 PM »

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Pollen must be moist that bees can eate it or handle it.

But when you have that pollen in dry balls, what bees have foraged, put into pollen some water and it will soften. Then mix  to it fructose or honey. Fructose take moisture from hive air and keeps the pollen moist.

I had 10 liter cettle. It was full of polen balls. I put there 0,7 litre water overnight, and it was enough to soften the dry pollen.  

Moist pollen takes easily mold and will be spoiled. You must use sugar so that patty has 50% sugar content.

Then flatten the patty between greese papper and put it on the frame bars. It is best place.

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« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 12:57:46 PM by Finski » Logged

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Michael Bush
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« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2012, 01:38:20 AM »

I feed it dry in the open when I feed it.  I put it on top of screen on top of a SBB on top of a solid bottom board with a hive on top.  The bees roll in it and collect it.  It does not set off robbing, but does seem to make them extremely happy...
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Michael Bush
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Finski
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« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2012, 11:19:34 AM »

I feed it dry in the open when I feed it.  I put it on top of screen on top of a SBB on top of a solid bottom board with a hive on top.  The bees roll in it and collect it.  It does not set off robbing, but does seem to make them extremely happy...

When you feed pollen out, most of them go nature when wings whip the dusty pollen. If the pollen is dry and hard, they cannot collect it. Yes I have tried. What about windy and rainy weather?

When you feed pollen, you must feed it all the time. So, how do you feed it whole time outside?

Once I succeeded in outside feeding. In the afternoon one strong hive had pushed away other bees and 19 another hives got nothing. It was one hive show.

But life teaches. Carry on. Just my 22 years experience in pollen feeding. grin

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sawdstmakr
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« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2012, 12:07:04 PM »


When you feed pollen, you must feed it all the time. So, how do you feed it whole time outside?

Thanks for the reply.
What do you mean by that?
I just want to supplement the pollen they are already getting from nature. I won the bag of pollen substitute at our club meeting and wanted to use it before it goes bad.

Jim

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sawdstmakr
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« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2012, 12:16:10 PM »

I feed it dry in the open when I feed it.  I put it on top of screen on top of a SBB on top of a solid bottom board with a hive on top.  The bees roll in it and collect it.  It does not set off robbing, but does seem to make them extremely happy...

Thanks for the reply.
When you said hive, did you mean an empty one?
You said you put it on top of a screen on top of a Screen Bottom Board on top of a solid board.
This stuff is a fine powder. I'm not sure what you are saying to do! Are you saying you put it on a board inside of an empty hive, the SBB catches the SHB?
Please explain.
Jim
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Finski
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« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2012, 12:26:43 PM »

I just want to supplement the pollen they are already getting from nature.

OK, now I see. Jacksonville Florida. Temps 25C. You really do not need pollen feeding. Propably bees do not eate extar pollen. At least my hives stop patty feeding when they get enough pollen from nature.

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sawdstmakr
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« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2012, 12:29:16 PM »

I just want to supplement the pollen they are already getting from nature.

OK, now I see. Jacksonville Florida. Temps 25C. You really do not need pollen feeding. Propably bees do not eate extar pollen. At least my hives stop patty feeding when they get enough pollen from nature.



Thanks Finski. I was just trying to use this pollen up.
Jim
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bee-nuts
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« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2012, 01:11:39 PM »

If they have a decent pollen source available it is likely they will pay no attention to it.  You can always try though.

What I think MB was telling you was this.  First there are two bottom boards.  One is a normal one, and the other has the floor cut out and screen over the whole.  MB puts a normal bottom board down first. then puts the screened bottom boards on top of it, then and emptly super on that, and then a lid.  so essentially an empty hive.  But your powder would just fall through the screen, but you could just put it in a pan one a bottom board and then cover with an empty box and lid.  Maybe the bees will take some.  You could try putting a little syrup in the pan to attract them and see if they start collecting it.

But what may just happen is as finski states, what they manage to collect falls off when they take to wing.  I dont know about this but maybe he is right.  I would have to find out for myself.
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Finski
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« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2012, 02:30:24 PM »

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What I have met is that a swarm is eager to eate pollen patty when it settles down and draw combs.
When I look at swarm's stores, I cannot find pollen stores. It takes too 2-3 days before the queen starts to lay.

Wax making needs quite much protein.
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Brandy
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« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2012, 02:50:45 PM »

I like using it in a couple buckets turned on their sides protected from the wind.  I usually get 2-3 months where there's occasional days that are nice enough for the bees to be out before we get any natural pollen available here in the west!!  Once the silver maples start the buckets are deserted.  But up until that time it's pretty solid activity.  I spread out six different buckets pretty close to the hives and they just go back and forth alllll day. 
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2012, 09:28:48 AM »

I seldom feed pollen.  In the spring the maples start blooming and from then on there is usually pollen available somewhere.   Sometimes an early freeze kills everything off before the bees get a good round of brood reared in the fall and I feed some.  WHEN I feed it, I feed it in the open.

>What I think MB was telling you was this.  First there are two bottom boards.  One is a normal one, and the other has the floor cut out and screen over the whole.  MB puts a normal bottom board down first. then puts the screened bottom boards on top of it, then and emptly super on that, and then a lid.  so essentially an empty hive.  But your powder would just fall through the screen, but you could just put it in a pan one a bottom board and then cover with an empty box and lid.  Maybe the bees will take some. 

Yes.  The point is when I put it on the solid bottom it got wet and mildewed.  On the screen it stays dry.  If what you have is pollen substitute, that is another thing from pollen.  Pollen is in pellets.  Substitute is just powder.  Sometimes I mix substitute half and half with real pollen and it stays on a screen (window screen) pretty well but it can breath so it doesn't mold.
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Michael Bush
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sawdstmakr
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« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2012, 11:14:18 AM »

Thanks Mike.
Yesterday I put a thin layer on a plate in an almost empty hive with a SBB, left a few frame hoping to attract a swarm. I will see how they take to it and next time I will place a screen over the plate and put the pollen on the screen. Hopefully the pollen substitute that does fall through will be thin and they can eat it also with out it getting moldy. I will let you know how it works out.
Jim
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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2012, 11:20:51 AM »

Wax making needs quite much protein.

No, I don't think so.  Wax is made de novo from sugar.  It is composed of sugar alcohols and long chain fatty acids. No protein was injured in the production of this wax.  grin

The queen needs protein to make eggs so that might explain the delay and the swarm's need for pollen.

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rdy-b
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« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2012, 02:04:28 PM »

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What I have met is that a swarm is eager to eate pollen patty when it settles down and draw combs.
When I look at swarm's stores, I cannot find pollen stores. It takes too 2-3 days before the queen starts to lay.

Wax making needs quite much protein.

 Bees dont store pollen patty like they store pollen--they are consuming the patty for protein reserves
 so they can feed the new larvae and also energize the queens laying process----When bees swarm they cary with them
 a full honey gut more than double when they forage -it is this Honey (carbohydrate) that they fuel the comb building    process with-also
 outside temps have a impact on there ability to build wax proficiently--- cheesy  Wink RDY-B
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2012, 04:01:59 AM »

>Wax making needs quite much protein.

Not according to Huber's rather extensive experiments in Huber's New Observations Upon Bees, Volume II Chapter II.
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Michael Bush
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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2012, 11:08:33 PM »

>Wax making needs quite much protein.

Not according to Huber's rather extensive experiments in Huber's New Observations Upon Bees, Volume II Chapter II.

Right.  I once assumed that since the wax contains long carbon chains, it must come from fats in pollen.  But when I read up on it, I was surprised to find out that wax is totally sythesized all the way up from simple sugars.  It's the only product that bees make totally themselves.   Honey is composed primarily of foraged compounds that are be later modified by bacteria in the bees.   And propolis is primarily a foraged material.
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Finski
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« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2012, 02:31:16 AM »


No, I don't think so.  Wax is made de novo from sugar.  


These are not thinking issues. I tried to find researches about pollen and protein but they all have cost.

Every wax information says that bees need pollen to make wax. Even if wax does not include protein, synthesis and running entzymatic systems use proteins.

All enzymes are proteins.

Australian researching tells that when hives have longtime heavy flow, the brooding of colony collapses. They have thinked that continouous exreceting of wax is so hard job, draw combs and cap them - . They move hives to some pollen pastures that the colonies  recover.

http://www.bee-hexagon.net/files/file/fileE/Wax/WaxBook2.pdf  WAX BOOK 17 pages
Wax production and comb construction activity in the bee colony are determined by following factors:
• Nectar flow: the greater the flow, the more combs are needed for storage.
• Brood rearing (egg laying): the more eggs are layed, the more comb cells are needed.
• The presence of a queen: only colonies with a queen build combs.
• Temperature: temperatures higher than 15° C favour comb building activity
• The presence of pollen as a protein source
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Finski
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« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2012, 02:36:20 AM »

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But Michael's comment made me think that when swarm or false swarm settles down into the hive, there are young bees which need pollen to complete their growth. Young bees 3-5 days old needs lots of pollen. That may be the main reason to eate patty (soya and yeast)in the middle of summer.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2012, 03:50:24 AM »

Huber denied them even a particle of pollen for quite an extended time and they kept building wax without it.  After doing it with only honey, just in case some particle of pollen might be in the honey, he used sugar syrup with the same results.  I have not tried the experiment, but I have learned to trust Huber's results.  It does makes sense to me that they might require protein to make enzymes and that enzymes may be required to make wax.  But I have not seen any research that says that.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
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