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Author Topic: Feeding pollen dry.  (Read 3860 times)
sawdstmakr
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« on: February 29, 2012, 12:07:17 PM »

Being located in Florida, I've been told if you put pollen patties in the hive, the SHB love them and really get out of control. I tried mixing the pollen substute with sugar but that does not work to well. Most of the pollen gets waisted.
Is there a way to make a feeder that you can fee them the powder dry. It will have to be protected from getting wet. I have thought about using a upside down bucket with a hole in the bottom and a container inside.

If I feed pollen close to the hives, will it cause robbing like sugar water does?

Let me know what you think.
Jim
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« Reply #1 on: February 29, 2012, 12:46:59 PM »

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Pollen must be moist that bees can eate it or handle it.

But when you have that pollen in dry balls, what bees have foraged, put into pollen some water and it will soften. Then mix  to it fructose or honey. Fructose take moisture from hive air and keeps the pollen moist.

I had 10 liter cettle. It was full of polen balls. I put there 0,7 litre water overnight, and it was enough to soften the dry pollen.  

Moist pollen takes easily mold and will be spoiled. You must use sugar so that patty has 50% sugar content.

Then flatten the patty between greese papper and put it on the frame bars. It is best place.

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« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 12:57:46 PM by Finski » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2012, 01:38:20 AM »

I feed it dry in the open when I feed it.  I put it on top of screen on top of a SBB on top of a solid bottom board with a hive on top.  The bees roll in it and collect it.  It does not set off robbing, but does seem to make them extremely happy...
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« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2012, 11:19:34 AM »

I feed it dry in the open when I feed it.  I put it on top of screen on top of a SBB on top of a solid bottom board with a hive on top.  The bees roll in it and collect it.  It does not set off robbing, but does seem to make them extremely happy...

When you feed pollen out, most of them go nature when wings whip the dusty pollen. If the pollen is dry and hard, they cannot collect it. Yes I have tried. What about windy and rainy weather?

When you feed pollen, you must feed it all the time. So, how do you feed it whole time outside?

Once I succeeded in outside feeding. In the afternoon one strong hive had pushed away other bees and 19 another hives got nothing. It was one hive show.

But life teaches. Carry on. Just my 22 years experience in pollen feeding. grin

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sawdstmakr
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« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2012, 12:07:04 PM »


When you feed pollen, you must feed it all the time. So, how do you feed it whole time outside?

Thanks for the reply.
What do you mean by that?
I just want to supplement the pollen they are already getting from nature. I won the bag of pollen substitute at our club meeting and wanted to use it before it goes bad.

Jim

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sawdstmakr
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« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2012, 12:16:10 PM »

I feed it dry in the open when I feed it.  I put it on top of screen on top of a SBB on top of a solid bottom board with a hive on top.  The bees roll in it and collect it.  It does not set off robbing, but does seem to make them extremely happy...

Thanks for the reply.
When you said hive, did you mean an empty one?
You said you put it on top of a screen on top of a Screen Bottom Board on top of a solid board.
This stuff is a fine powder. I'm not sure what you are saying to do! Are you saying you put it on a board inside of an empty hive, the SBB catches the SHB?
Please explain.
Jim
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« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2012, 12:26:43 PM »

I just want to supplement the pollen they are already getting from nature.

OK, now I see. Jacksonville Florida. Temps 25C. You really do not need pollen feeding. Propably bees do not eate extar pollen. At least my hives stop patty feeding when they get enough pollen from nature.

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« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2012, 12:29:16 PM »

I just want to supplement the pollen they are already getting from nature.

OK, now I see. Jacksonville Florida. Temps 25C. You really do not need pollen feeding. Propably bees do not eate extar pollen. At least my hives stop patty feeding when they get enough pollen from nature.



Thanks Finski. I was just trying to use this pollen up.
Jim
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« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2012, 01:11:39 PM »

If they have a decent pollen source available it is likely they will pay no attention to it.  You can always try though.

What I think MB was telling you was this.  First there are two bottom boards.  One is a normal one, and the other has the floor cut out and screen over the whole.  MB puts a normal bottom board down first. then puts the screened bottom boards on top of it, then and emptly super on that, and then a lid.  so essentially an empty hive.  But your powder would just fall through the screen, but you could just put it in a pan one a bottom board and then cover with an empty box and lid.  Maybe the bees will take some.  You could try putting a little syrup in the pan to attract them and see if they start collecting it.

But what may just happen is as finski states, what they manage to collect falls off when they take to wing.  I dont know about this but maybe he is right.  I would have to find out for myself.
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« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2012, 02:30:24 PM »

.
What I have met is that a swarm is eager to eate pollen patty when it settles down and draw combs.
When I look at swarm's stores, I cannot find pollen stores. It takes too 2-3 days before the queen starts to lay.

Wax making needs quite much protein.
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« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2012, 02:50:45 PM »

I like using it in a couple buckets turned on their sides protected from the wind.  I usually get 2-3 months where there's occasional days that are nice enough for the bees to be out before we get any natural pollen available here in the west!!  Once the silver maples start the buckets are deserted.  But up until that time it's pretty solid activity.  I spread out six different buckets pretty close to the hives and they just go back and forth alllll day. 
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2012, 09:28:48 AM »

I seldom feed pollen.  In the spring the maples start blooming and from then on there is usually pollen available somewhere.   Sometimes an early freeze kills everything off before the bees get a good round of brood reared in the fall and I feed some.  WHEN I feed it, I feed it in the open.

>What I think MB was telling you was this.  First there are two bottom boards.  One is a normal one, and the other has the floor cut out and screen over the whole.  MB puts a normal bottom board down first. then puts the screened bottom boards on top of it, then and emptly super on that, and then a lid.  so essentially an empty hive.  But your powder would just fall through the screen, but you could just put it in a pan one a bottom board and then cover with an empty box and lid.  Maybe the bees will take some. 

Yes.  The point is when I put it on the solid bottom it got wet and mildewed.  On the screen it stays dry.  If what you have is pollen substitute, that is another thing from pollen.  Pollen is in pellets.  Substitute is just powder.  Sometimes I mix substitute half and half with real pollen and it stays on a screen (window screen) pretty well but it can breath so it doesn't mold.
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Michael Bush
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sawdstmakr
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« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2012, 11:14:18 AM »

Thanks Mike.
Yesterday I put a thin layer on a plate in an almost empty hive with a SBB, left a few frame hoping to attract a swarm. I will see how they take to it and next time I will place a screen over the plate and put the pollen on the screen. Hopefully the pollen substitute that does fall through will be thin and they can eat it also with out it getting moldy. I will let you know how it works out.
Jim
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« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2012, 11:20:51 AM »

Wax making needs quite much protein.

No, I don't think so.  Wax is made de novo from sugar.  It is composed of sugar alcohols and long chain fatty acids. No protein was injured in the production of this wax.  grin

The queen needs protein to make eggs so that might explain the delay and the swarm's need for pollen.

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« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2012, 02:04:28 PM »

.
What I have met is that a swarm is eager to eate pollen patty when it settles down and draw combs.
When I look at swarm's stores, I cannot find pollen stores. It takes too 2-3 days before the queen starts to lay.

Wax making needs quite much protein.

 Bees dont store pollen patty like they store pollen--they are consuming the patty for protein reserves
 so they can feed the new larvae and also energize the queens laying process----When bees swarm they cary with them
 a full honey gut more than double when they forage -it is this Honey (carbohydrate) that they fuel the comb building    process with-also
 outside temps have a impact on there ability to build wax proficiently--- cheesy  Wink RDY-B
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2012, 04:01:59 AM »

>Wax making needs quite much protein.

Not according to Huber's rather extensive experiments in Huber's New Observations Upon Bees, Volume II Chapter II.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2012, 11:08:33 PM »

>Wax making needs quite much protein.

Not according to Huber's rather extensive experiments in Huber's New Observations Upon Bees, Volume II Chapter II.

Right.  I once assumed that since the wax contains long carbon chains, it must come from fats in pollen.  But when I read up on it, I was surprised to find out that wax is totally sythesized all the way up from simple sugars.  It's the only product that bees make totally themselves.   Honey is composed primarily of foraged compounds that are be later modified by bacteria in the bees.   And propolis is primarily a foraged material.
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« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2012, 02:31:16 AM »


No, I don't think so.  Wax is made de novo from sugar.  


These are not thinking issues. I tried to find researches about pollen and protein but they all have cost.

Every wax information says that bees need pollen to make wax. Even if wax does not include protein, synthesis and running entzymatic systems use proteins.

All enzymes are proteins.

Australian researching tells that when hives have longtime heavy flow, the brooding of colony collapses. They have thinked that continouous exreceting of wax is so hard job, draw combs and cap them - . They move hives to some pollen pastures that the colonies  recover.

http://www.bee-hexagon.net/files/file/fileE/Wax/WaxBook2.pdf  WAX BOOK 17 pages
Wax production and comb construction activity in the bee colony are determined by following factors:
• Nectar flow: the greater the flow, the more combs are needed for storage.
• Brood rearing (egg laying): the more eggs are layed, the more comb cells are needed.
• The presence of a queen: only colonies with a queen build combs.
• Temperature: temperatures higher than 15° C favour comb building activity
• The presence of pollen as a protein source
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« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2012, 02:36:20 AM »

.
But Michael's comment made me think that when swarm or false swarm settles down into the hive, there are young bees which need pollen to complete their growth. Young bees 3-5 days old needs lots of pollen. That may be the main reason to eate patty (soya and yeast)in the middle of summer.
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« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2012, 03:50:24 AM »

Huber denied them even a particle of pollen for quite an extended time and they kept building wax without it.  After doing it with only honey, just in case some particle of pollen might be in the honey, he used sugar syrup with the same results.  I have not tried the experiment, but I have learned to trust Huber's results.  It does makes sense to me that they might require protein to make enzymes and that enzymes may be required to make wax.  But I have not seen any research that says that.
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« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2012, 08:56:12 AM »

And are you a Paramedic?  Not too many use the term.  Retired one here.
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« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2012, 09:14:26 AM »

Even if wax does not include protein, synthesis and running entzymatic systems use proteins.


Enzymes don't wear out because they are more active.  grin   It is true that enzyme levels in an organism vary depending on what the organism is doing at that moment.  But the amounts of protein required for making enzymes is VERY small compared to the amount of protein needed for muscle.  If the bees needed to make extra enzymes, they could easily get that protein by breaking down some muscle tissue.  They would not have to eat more.
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« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2012, 09:41:16 AM »

Even if wax does not include protein, synthesis and running entzymatic systems use proteins.


Enzymes don't wear out because they are more active.  grin   It is true that enzyme levels in an organism vary depending on what the organism is doing at that moment.  But the amounts of protein required for making enzymes is VERY small compared to the  the amount of protein needed for muscle.  If the bees needed to make extra enzymes, they could easily get that protein by breaking down some muscle tissue.  They would not have to eat more.


You write something which is dwawn purely from sleave.
It seems that you do not understand enzymes and proteins not at all. Sorry to say that. Enzymes and muscle making. Nothing to do each other. Note that I have studied biology in university. Don't fool me.

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« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2012, 09:47:26 AM »


http://www.honeybee.com.au/Library/pollen/nutrition.html

NUTRITIONAL REQUIREMENTS OF HONEY BEES
Bee body-protein

Bees store protein in their body, and use it to make wings, muscles and other body organs. The higher the level of protein in their bodies, the stronger the bees are and the longer they can live.

Bees can have a very high body-protein of over 60% crude protein, at which time they are strong, long-lived bees, with the ability to collect lots of honey. Or at the other extreme they can have low body-protein of less than 30% (Kleinschmidt 1988). When bees have low body-protein they will live only a short time, suffer from diseases like European brood disease (EBD) and nosema, and be very poor honey producers.

High body-protein bees are essential in autumn, so the bees can combat nosema, overwinter in strong condition, and have plenty of body-protein to use for hive build-up in the spring. Bees with a low body-protein in the autumn will generally not overwinter well, will be susceptible to nosema and "spring dwindles" and possibly have restricted breeding in the spring.

Bee body-protein is reduced by honey production, cold or hot weather, wax production, and an increase in breeding, especially during the spring build-up period.

Bee body-protein will increase if the bees are getting plenty of pollen with more than 20% digestible crude protein, especially if they are not stressed by heavy honey production and extremes in weather.

Bee body-protein is a good measure of the hives' ability to survive winter, collect good honey crops, and overcome many of the bee diseases, like European brood disease or chalk brood. The higher the body-protein level, the better the bees will be able to collect economic yields of honey, pollinate crops, and produce queen bees.

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Finski
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« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2012, 10:04:34 AM »

.
Perhaps the need of protein is not essential in wax production.
When we think package bees, they draw combs without help of pollen foraging.
Same happens with swarms. They do not forage much pollen but they draw quite fast combs.

Here is 13 pages protein text and nothing has been menitioned about needs of wax makig.
http://www.culturaapicola.com.ar/apuntes/revistaselectronicas/apidologie/21-5/04.pdf
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« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2012, 10:53:10 AM »

Note that I have studied biology in university. Don't fool me.

Reminds me of a funny song named "Virginia Woman" (by Tully Richards) that was played at my doctoral final defense party (yes, it was for a degree in Biochemistry, specifically enzyme kinetics and regulation  grin)   The lyrics go like this:

"If you don't think I can love you baby, I'm gonna show you my lover's degree.  I'm gonna reach right in and pull out my PhD."    Finski, I wouldn't dream of trying to fool you.  

In fact... I'm so impressed I'm changing my signature line to immortalize your university studies.
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« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2012, 11:23:00 AM »

The harmony of that low buzz coming from the bee hive in the winter reminds me of the harmony among bee keepers  Smiley
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« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2012, 11:45:50 AM »

[In fact... I'm so impressed I'm changing my signature line to immortalize your university studies.

You cannot affect to it nothing. What I learned there was desire to find facts and skill how find them.
I do not give much value to opinions if facts are present. - I am bad in that.
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« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2012, 11:53:41 AM »

winter reminds me of the harmony among bee keepers  Smiley


We had a singer band "harmony sisters" but it is long time ago 1936-1950.




Harmony Sisters - Liisa pien' / Kodin kynttilät (1942)
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« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2012, 12:08:46 PM »

Finski, you must have been a mere teenager when that was filmed ! grin

Scott
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« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2012, 01:01:10 PM »

**Australian researching tells that when hives have longtime heavy flow, the brooding of colony collapses.**

 the collapse they speak of is not due to WAX PRODUCTION ---what happens is the colony forages for honey
 they burn up there protein and vitilogene reservers stored in there body-to replenish this forage bees actually
 beg for jelly from the nurse bees--the bees transfer jelly via trophallaxis to parts of the colony in need of protein
 they just dont reserve this for new brood and bees--this creates a dip in brood rearing--colonies coming off honey flows
 are deprived of protein-they burned it foraging--same thing often happens in pollination of row crops where there is no flow but a small amount of pollen-the hive has a economy with its reserves of protein--extreme cases of this are witnessed
 by the cannibalism of brood-- cool RDY-B
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« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2012, 01:32:19 PM »

Finski, you must have been a mere teenager when that was filmed ! grin

Scott

I was only a blink in my father's eye.
Film has been made during war, I suppose.
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« Reply #32 on: March 06, 2012, 12:18:19 PM »

Quote
It does makes sense to me that they might require protein to make enzymes and that enzymes may be required to make wax.  But I have not seen any research that says that.
To disambiguate and simplify.  Mostly proteins are enzymes are catalysts.  The presence of these chemicals allows a reaction to happen at either a different temperature or environment.

Hormones are proteins that tell your bodies cells how to build the sexual structures that define gender.  So quintessentially, the proteins are necessary to form the waxes.  What the waxes are made from is relative, as all chemistry in the body is centered around CHON, Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, and Nitrogen.

As you could imagine, the wax will not be synthesized without the pollens necessary to supply the nitrogen used in the production of those proteins.  Any production will use the proteins, so after what's stored is used, the bees would drop or cease production.  The sugars are C, H, and O, so the waxes will also have to have a chemistry without Nitrogen if made primarily from sugars.
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« Reply #33 on: March 06, 2012, 01:05:56 PM »

** So quintessentially, the proteins are necessary to form the waxes.  What the waxes are made from is relative, as all chemistry in the body is centered **

 we dont dispute that proteins are used-  cheesy-its a transfer of energy to a DEGREE--its not a
 TAXING event for the protein reserves -much in the same way energy is used when the bee
 breaths it is using protein as a machine burns fuel-takes a defined amount of labor to burn
 all the fuel -before refueling must occur--WAX production in itself is not the depleting factor-- cool RDY-B
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« Reply #34 on: March 06, 2012, 05:14:44 PM »


To disambiguate and simplify.  Mostly proteins are enzymes are catalysts.  The presence of these chemicals allows a reaction to happen at either a different temperature or environment.

Yes, enzymes are protein catalysts. That means that they are not consumed in the reaction.  They facilitate a reaction and speed it up, but the enzyme molecule is left unchanged when the reaction is complete. So the enzyme can catalyze the same reaction over and over.  For that reason, there may be few copies of an enzyme at any given moment.  That means that the amount of protein tied up in the enzyme molecules is tiny.   There would always be enough spare protein in a bee to make necessary enzymes.
Quote


As you could imagine, the wax will not be synthesized without the pollens necessary to supply the nitrogen used in the production of those proteins.  Any production will use the proteins, so after what's stored is used, the bees would drop or cease production.  The sugars are C, H, and O, so the waxes will also have to have a chemistry without Nitrogen if made primarily from sugars.
In general the sugar alcohols and long chain fatty acids that compose wax do not contain any nitrogen.  Again, protein shortage would not be a factor.  Wax is not made from protein.
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« Reply #35 on: March 07, 2012, 02:04:49 AM »

.
What are we debating? Wax has no nitrogen. we know that.

Do you know, does a human needs protein to make his daily  feces?

Yes he needs. For example the epithelium of the gut renews every 4 th day.

When bees move syrup from feeding container to the combs and cap it, processing takes 24% from the original sugar. When animals eate forage, it is very effective if chicken of container grown salmon can store 30% of its food. The rest 70% goes to processing the food.

It is said that beed do not eate pollen in winter cluster. But why they eate it during the whole long winter and then their abdomen is full of empty pollen cells. What we know about that?

When I start patty feeding after winter and I give them the first patty, they wolf down first patties in couple of days even if they do not have larvae.



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« Reply #36 on: March 07, 2012, 09:12:48 PM »

Yep!

That pretty well exhausts my knowledge on the subject.  I couldn't tell you what proteins may be destroyed in the process, or which would continue to do the job.  Point I was trying to make is the wax doesn't have Nitrogen in it, and as a result would have to be composed of non-nitrogenous material from the proteins, or from a simpler source, the sugars.
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« Reply #37 on: March 07, 2012, 10:31:15 PM »


 Point I was trying to make is the wax doesn't have Nitrogen in it, and as a result would have to be composed of non-nitrogenous material from the proteins, or from a simpler source, the sugars.


Here is the "most simple process", using sugar as energy.
Most of those names are proteins. They are needed to loose out the energy from sugar

Stages are about 50 in Crebs cycle.





WE may describe that same thing with glycolysis

Glycolysis
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« Reply #38 on: March 07, 2012, 10:49:27 PM »

.

Synthesis of beewax? You think that it is simple.
At least it takes energy. To make 1 kg wax, bees need 6 kg honey.

Beewax chemical composition

wax is formed from a mixture of several compounds.
(wikipedia)

Wax Content Type Percent
hydrocarbons 14%
monoesters 35%
diesters 14%
triesters 3%
hydroxy monoesters 4%
hydroxy polyesters 8%
acid esters 1%
acid polyesters 2%
free acids 12%
free alcohols 1%
unidentified 6%

An approximate chemical formula for beeswax is C15H31COOC30H61.[3]

Its main components are palmitate, palmitoleate, hydroxypalmitate[4] and oleate esters of long-chain (30-32 carbons) aliphatic alcohols, with the ratio of triacontanyl palmitate CH3(CH2)29O-CO-(CH2)14CH3 to cerotic acid[5] CH3(CH2)24COOH, the two principal components, being 6:1. Beeswax can be classified generally into European and Oriental types. The ratio of saponification value is lower (3-5) for European beeswax, and higher (8-9) for Oriental types.

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« Reply #39 on: March 08, 2012, 09:06:46 PM »

I leave the organic analysis to my brother, an organic chemist.  Though if I ask, I'm liable to hear about what the process of gasification is actually called rather than a rundown of the synthesis of plastics via bee abdomen.

But that's actually informative Finski!  Cool!  Thank you!
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« Reply #40 on: March 09, 2012, 03:04:00 AM »


But that's actually informative Finski!  Cool!  !


Somebody wrote about "simple" things.Only to be and breath is very complex in creature.

When I first time heard about mitochondria in University, it made me felt fizzy. They are energy units in living creatures, where sugar will be splitted to energy + CO2 + H2O

Wikipedia: A recent study[58] by researchers of the University of Hawaiʻi at Mānoa and the Oregon State University, indicates that the SAR11 clade of bacteria shares a relatively recent common ancestor with the mitochondria existing in most eukaryotic cells.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrion



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« Reply #41 on: March 09, 2012, 10:59:46 AM »

Jim
What I have been doing for open feeding of dry pollen sub is.  I use a 6 inch piece of 4 inch pvc pipe.  On one end I have an end cap and the other end is a down spout.  I secure the caps to the pipe to keep it water tight and then paint them.  The down spout converts the round hole into a small square, I like to run some sand paper on the inside just to give the girls something to grip.  I then hang this in a tree and keep the opening pointed down to keep the wind and water out of it.  It has worked fantasticly for me the past few months untill we started getting real pollen here.  Now the girls are no where near them but I am sure when it dries up here they will return to them.
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« Reply #42 on: March 10, 2012, 10:46:11 PM »

Jim
What I have been doing for open feeding of dry pollen sub is.  I use a 6 inch piece of 4 inch pvc pipe.  On one end I have an end cap and the other end is a down spout.  I secure the caps to the pipe to keep it water tight and then paint them.  The down spout converts the round hole into a small square, I like to run some sand paper on the inside just to give the girls something to grip.  I then hang this in a tree and keep the opening pointed down to keep the wind and water out of it.  It has worked fantasticly for me the past few months untill we started getting real pollen here.  Now the girls are no where near them but I am sure when it dries up here they will return to them.
Any chance of posting a picture. I cannot picture it.
Thanks,
Jin
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« Reply #43 on: March 11, 2012, 03:03:29 PM »

Jim I will take a picture tomorrow when I get off work
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« Reply #44 on: March 11, 2012, 09:49:22 PM »

If you have the February isue of American Bee Journal there is pictures and how to of the PVC pipe, made feeders.
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« Reply #45 on: March 12, 2012, 11:37:00 AM »

Jim I will take a picture tomorrow when I get off work
Thanks
Jim
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« Reply #46 on: March 12, 2012, 07:00:27 PM »

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« Reply #47 on: March 12, 2012, 07:01:12 PM »



Hope this helps, its the same thing that was posed in the bee magazine
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