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Author Topic: So clear and idiot should get it.......  (Read 6380 times)
T Beek
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« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2012, 09:20:49 AM »

Jeesh yourself Bjornbee;  Its kinda obvious you haven't bothered to look at what she's written to me.  Please take the time.  Do you think kathyp really needs your denfence?  The girl is fully capable of defending her position 'whenever' it suits her, just like anyone on this forum, maybe even more so as she can be quite articulate (clear) when she wants to. 

Fact is, she's made a habit of inviting debate with me, then shuts it down in apparent frustration because she fails to know or even try to know the material she's already decided (assumes) is nonsense, deciding there's nothing to learn, much less know.  Then a while later it starts all over again.  Its probably very entertaining for some.

Tell us please Bjorn Bee, how can anyone debate that on an open forum? 

I certainly agree that it would do us all good to look in the mirror more often.  If you had actually read any of my posts you'd see that I've tried hard to be a unifier considerably more often than a divider around here, but it seems your mind is made up and for that I am sincerely sorry. 

But that's all I'm sorry for grin.

t
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boca
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« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2012, 09:34:32 AM »

Leo Tolstoy once said of George, "People do not argue with the teaching of George, they simply do not know it".
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T Beek
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« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2012, 09:52:25 AM »

Exactly right boca, and exactly why this entire conversation has been so frustrating, to say the least; 

I am unaware of a single instance whereby Henry George's "SINGLE TAX theories and/or 'currently applied' practices have been successfully refuted, NOT ONE! 

And I'm 'always' looking  Smiley

t
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kathyp
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« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2012, 10:02:34 AM »

perhaps TBeek and i think differently?  when i  advocate for a position, practice, or theory, i try to think through the broad application of my position.  a view of the broad application in the 21 century is what i was asking of T, but perhaps that was asking to much. 

it's ok, guys.  we can always talk about something else if he wants to think about it.  if he doesn't?  that's ok too. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #44 on: February 28, 2012, 10:06:12 AM »

Fact is, she's made a habit of inviting debate with me, then shuts it down in apparent frustration because she fails to know or even try to know the material she's already decided (assumes) is nonsense, deciding there's nothing to learn, much less know. 

I rest my case.  Wink  
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T Beek
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« Reply #45 on: February 28, 2012, 10:28:08 AM »

I provided what was requested and it was and remains, completely ignored and therefore UNDEBATED.

I'm done repeating myself to someone that refuses to look at what is right in front of them.

DONE! I say  grin

Way too easy to just 'rest your case' Bjornbee.  Never figured you for a quitter  Wink.

t
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kathyp
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« Reply #46 on: February 28, 2012, 10:53:59 AM »

you provided the example of a couple of towns.  if that's what you want, it's done.  i thought you wanted broad application?  i wondered how you thought that would work...not in the far past, but in the here and now.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
T Beek
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« Reply #47 on: February 28, 2012, 11:21:41 AM »

I smell a trap being laid but what the heck Wink  

I'm already ready for the upcoming storm (for real now, we're about to get hit w/ up to 15" of snow if you can believe the weather experts).  Check out North Wisconsin on the weather channel  cool

OK, so as "previously' mentioned (and kathyp ridiculed me for doing so, if anyone cares to revisit), Denmark currently collects at least 50% of its revenue by land-valued tax or Single Tax.  In Australia all 6 States and the majority of the municipalities tax land 'values' to a certain degree and many exempt improvements in whole or in part, which 'encourages'  real investments (Improvements and opportunities) for those owning LAND and those living nearby.  Both New Zealand and South Africa use a "single tax" in local communities.  In Canada, many western cities tax LAND VALUES at a higher rate than improvements.  

Just imagine how current LAND-OWNERS could be motivated to care for and make improvements to, LAND they were NOT Taxed for making said improvements?  How does this NOT sound like an interesting (RINGING A BELL) prospect that could benefit.........everyone?

Examples have already been provided in several regions in the U.S. who practice 'natural economics' as taught by Henry George.  Pennsylvania is loaded w/ communities practicing some form of GEOISM.

Frankly kathyp; I don't know what more you could want from me.  If this isn't enough to make you curious about George then I'm at a loss and give up trying to explain it to you.  After all, you DO keep asking for SOMETHING  from me, but then condemn my answers whenever I try to give them up grin

t
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 11:35:49 AM by T Beek » Logged

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kathyp
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« Reply #48 on: February 28, 2012, 11:55:54 AM »

since we are not denmark or austrailia, that still doesn't really answer my question.
  ok, 85% of the population of the US lives in urban areas.  would this land tax be applied to condos?  doesn't this remove the incentive to own land?  are you not just swapping "tax the rich" for "tax the land owner"?  everyone who doesn't own, gets a free ride?  then you have the issue of states that have the majority of their land owned by the govt.  who taxes that?  what about land owned by corporations?  do you get rid of the corporate tax and replace it with a land tax?  what about profits made from activities on the land?  what happens to state property tax? 

when HG came up with his theory, most people who lived on the land were farmers and ranchers. they earned their living off the land.that's not true anymore.  a lot of that land...when he was complaining about the RRs was not even in a state.  it was federal territory.     last, but not least, by exempting a large portion of the population from taxation, you have not solved the problem of those who take and do not contribute.  you have just shifted the contributions from one group to another.

i don't see any benefit to your plan other than another form of class warfare.  land owners vs. everyone else who wants "stuff".
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
T Beek
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« Reply #49 on: February 28, 2012, 01:38:50 PM »

C'mon kathyp; you asked me for 'practical applications' of geoism, I gave you a bunch (several times) and then you change the question or ridicule the answers, all while still missing the point and essence of Henry George.  

You're asking me questions based on assumptions, that tell us you haven't looked at any of it.  You're 'clearly' making some assumptions that have nothing to do with his theories for a "Single Tax" based on LAND VALUES, which would have and still do encourage land ownership and land development to its fullest potential TODAY, that actually benefits the entire community, instead of how today's Landowners fear making such improvements for fear of the tax man.  

Under geoism, Landowners only requirement to society would be the willingness to make proper and respectful use of said LAND (they could all still get rich beyond their wildest dreams, don't worry) and by paying a 'Single Tax' for the use of the LAND based on the actual value of LAND, and not let sit idle simply for fear of future taxation for any improvements, and then lie back and collect RENT from LABOR simply for its very existence on the planet.  

There are plenty of examples of GEOISM already provided whether in big cities or small towns, many more are likely out there.  This isn't new information, just 'un-refutable' information  cool

Because GEOISM would reflect 'actual-LAND-value tax' Landowners would be greatly encouraged to make improvements (it would be extremely profitable to do so) or sell the LAND, instead of just 'living off' what rightfully belongs to everyone, because it would no longer be profitable to just let LAND, whether on the streets of Manhattan or the prairies of the Midwest, sit idle while collecting rent off it.  

IMO; This theft of our land remains the most blatant (yet widely accepted and/or ignored) form of welfare (for the rich) known to humanity and its way past time for these 'kingdoms' (fiefdoms) to end.

Its very existence as an accepted system of economics goes against natural law.  With geoism there would no longer be any profit to just holding on to or controlling vast quantities of LAND and sitting back and collecting rent off the occupants.  That's theft IMO, and its what we mostly put up with right now because most of us honestly don't know any better (no accident) or that we should expect, no demand something else.

What are you afraid of anyway kathyp?  Its a pretty short read.  

And consider this; we'd have a 'much' better debate, I promise  Wink  

What does all this remind me of.................. Undecided


Anyhow, this could be accomplished in as little as one generation and would hurt everyone equally, or at least in a more equal manner  Wink.

t
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 01:57:49 PM by T Beek » Logged

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kathyp
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« Reply #50 on: February 28, 2012, 02:17:14 PM »

ok.  lets assume that i am a little dense (not hard for you to do) and i need to understand how this would impact me.

lets say that i own a few acres.  i do not farm for profit or survival.  i just own the land.  i also own one or two rentals.  i pay state property tax, income tax, and in most states, sales tax.  i also pay various federal taxes. 

under you plan, what would happen to me.  who determines the "real value" of my land.  what happens with people who do not own land.  do they not contribute at all? 
who determines "proper and respectful" use of land?
you call ownership theft.  would you see no land ownership, or would "ownership" be determined by use? 

you say there are examples, but that's not really true in this country.  regardless of the single tax idea, people are still paying multiple taxes to multiple governments. would you do away with all those taxes, essentially doing away with state programs, and make everything come under one government?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #51 on: February 28, 2012, 02:33:35 PM »

Under geoism owning a few acres and occupying it would likely cost you less than what you're now paying in property taxes AND most importantly you could make any improvements your heart desired w/out fear of your taxes going up.

This is another part of George that is greatly misunderstood.  Simple occupation, say even the equivalent of enough to support a family of five.  What's that?  About five acres depending on if you raised any livestock, but still, 5 acres (or an equivalent when in urban areas) should be plenty to support many more than a family of 5, right?  IMO and George's Having enough LAND (or its equivalent) to support yourself is a right, as much as breathing clean air and drinking clean water is a right and the simple occupation and independent life under geoism would receive minimal taxation, dependant on LAND VALUE, just like it is right now.  

The transfer when thought about it, would be a natural because the players are already in place.  No need for 'another' bureaucracy.  

Under Geoism there would be no need for any other tax than a LAND VALUED SINGLE TAX.  It would be up to the States to set it up, much like they already do with property taxes with mere 'occupancy' exempted.  

Hope this 'encourages' you to just check George out for yourself.

t
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« Reply #52 on: February 28, 2012, 03:27:33 PM »

C'mon ...You're asking me questions based on assumptions, that tell us you haven't looked at any of it...

Any question has an assumption at its core.  Facts are unassuming.
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kathyp
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« Reply #53 on: February 28, 2012, 03:41:35 PM »

sounds great...except...states can't fund the stuff they have now with multiple taxes.  i guess if you cut out all that welfare, Medicaid, road repair, etc. it might work.  again, though...what about people who don't "occupy" land?  they pay nothing?  or, since there is no ownership, do people just find a space and pay tax on that space?  that ought to lead to some interesting events! 

what about the funding of federal stuff?  if we go back to the states funding the fed, that means the states will want to take even more from the occupiers.  and again, who determines the real value of land and based on what?



 
Quote
IMO and George's Having enough LAND (or its equivalent) to support yourself is a right,

interesting concept.  so lets say it take 10 acres to raise enough food and have a couple of animals.  do i just get to go out and plop myself down on 10 acres somewhere.  i mean...my neighbor has 20 and that's 10 to much, so it must be ok for me to occupy 10? 

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #54 on: February 28, 2012, 04:22:56 PM »

IE yie yie, you are making this harder than it has to be.

Plainly spoken, "those who currently capitalize off LAND" simply due to the 'self-appropriation' of the LAND, including and especially the exploitation of what's under the surface of the LAND would more than cover the void you again 'assume' would be created w/ GEOISM.  If you had studied even a little bit you'd already know that  Cry.  Instead you chose to play this patty-cake game w/ me, well have fun with that if you will.

You know, I usyua;;u try to avoid coming around here this late in the day as the darn narcotics I take have really begun kicking in pretty good by now, but I'm afraid you might be bringing out the very worst in me kathyp and despite a lifetime career full of teaching people all kinds of skills I can also accept that I can't teach an unwilling student. 

Is it a joyful thing for you, this game you're playing?  I certainly hope so  grin 

later gator  Wink

t
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kathyp
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« Reply #55 on: February 28, 2012, 05:40:58 PM »

Quote
Is it a joyful thing for you, this game you're playing?  I certainly hope so 


it is.  thanks for asking!

would it not be infinity more simple to have a flat tax that everyone pays? no haggles, no class warfare, no IRS.  one form.  one % rate.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #56 on: February 29, 2012, 04:02:01 AM »

"Bee-nuts what truth are you talking about?"

Thats my point exactly! 

The problem is the federal reserve bank, its corporate owners, its unconstitutional existence, unconstitutional funding, unconstitutional tax exempt status, .............

but thats just a big conspiracy that some nuts jobs come up with....

blame everything on democrats, republicans, welfare, spending, .......

ya, there are a lot of foolish policies and spending, but you will never solve the real problem with our currency, inflation, deflation, taxation, .......... until you rip the problem out by the root.  You can try to trim the problem above ground, give it a hair cut, give it a face lift, but at the end of the day, the problem is still there.

If you go to work every day for a month, and at the end of the month you dont have anymore than you did at the beginning of the month and you believe that what you did all month was only worth a roof over you head for 30 days, gas to get you to work, food to fuel you so you can work, and the wear and tear on your cloths so your not naked at work, vehicle to get you to work, etc., than you are exactly where the folks down at the good old federal reserve banking system want you! 

"The best kind of slave is the kind that dont even know they are a slave."
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« Reply #57 on: February 29, 2012, 08:00:52 AM »

>>If you go to work every day for a month, and at the end of the month you dont have anymore than you did at the beginning of the month and you believe that what you did all month was only worth a roof over you head for 30 days, gas to get you to work, food to fuel you so you can work, and the wear and tear on your cloths so your not naked at work, vehicle to get you to work, etc.,

According to some, that is more than the worker deserves.
( sorry bee-nuts, I took this out of context)
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T Beek
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« Reply #58 on: February 29, 2012, 08:16:26 AM »

 applause applause to bee-nuts and ray; you show an excellent grasp on reality and also perhaps the only solution.

Digging out the root.

(psst, did you notice my tag?  just ignore the misspelling and view the content  Wink

t
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« Reply #59 on: February 29, 2012, 10:18:00 AM »

Quote
>>If you go to work every day for a month, and at the end of the month you dont have anymore than you did at the beginning of the month and you believe that what you did all month was only worth a roof over you head for 30 days, gas to get you to work, food to fuel you so you can work, and the wear and tear on your cloths so your not naked at work, vehicle to get you to work, etc.,

According to some, that is more than the worker deserves.
( sorry bee-nuts, I took this out of context)

it's not about what is deserved.  to say that "i deserve" implies that someone owes me.
  we deserve what we work for.  if that's not enough, then we work harder or we do something else.  this is an advantage we have in this country that does not exist for most around the world.  we are not stuck in our class or our circumstances.  we can be and become what we choose.

that is, unless we think we are owed.  people who think they are owed tend to sit around waiting for their due, rather than changing their circumstances.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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