Need Bees Removed?
International
Beekeeping Forums
August 21, 2014, 09:11:30 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: Beemaster's official FACEBOOK page
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar bee removal Login Register Chat(1)  

Pages: 1 [2]  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: “Regression and Disease” The more I read the more confused I become.  (Read 3436 times)
Michael Bush
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13622


Location: Nehawka, NE


WWW
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2012, 11:07:33 PM »

>What I would like help understanding is when starting a “virgin” hive (one without any comb to start with). Is it better to start with empty frames (foundation or foundationless) versus a mixture of empty frames along with PF-100 or a similar product that has larger cells.

I don't know if there is a definite "better".  I've done both with good results, but some people doing natural comb have not gotten very small very fast and had mite issues in the meantime.  So the PF100 series has the advantage of getting to 4.9mm very quickly.

> I know Michael said it takes them longer to accept the frames. If it takes two weeks to accept it would they pull enough comb in this two week period to offset the acceptance period and be better off just using wood frames?

They don't draw HSC, it's already full comb.   There is no hesitation with the PF120s or PF100s.  They draw it right away.

>The PF frames seem to be the same as wood frames and wax foundation only plastic frame and plastic foundation sprayed with wax.

Yes.  It is plastic foundation in a plastic frame, but it's one piece.

>If I now understand correctly the difference, is there an advantage of PF frames versus something like Mann Lakes FN-267 a medium brood wax foundation with a 4.9 mm cell?

Apparently (just looked it up) that is wax 4.9mm most likely from Dadant (they seem to make most of it).  The likely outcome of starting large cell bees on 4.9mm wax is cells in the 5.1mm range and some funky transitions to make it work out.  The likely outcome with PF120s or PF100s is perfect 4.94mm cells the first try.

>I am leaning towards foundationless frames as my standard frame once established.

I like foundationless.  It is the most appealing from a natural point of view.
Logged

Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
BabcockFarms
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 168


Location: Spring Ranch, Nebraska


« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2012, 11:55:13 PM »

Michael,

Why do you believe the the bees would act differently on 4.9 PF frames than on 4.9 wax foundation? Are the PF frames more defined?
Logged

Ron Babcock

                                  "I believe the good that men do, will live long after they gone."
                                                                                                                          ~Mr. Fox Haas

<
Michael Bush
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13622


Location: Nehawka, NE


WWW
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2012, 12:38:35 AM »

>Why do you believe the the bees would act differently on 4.9 PF frames than on 4.9 wax foundation? Are the PF frames more defined?

I don't believe anything.  That is my experience with several hundred wax 4.9 and several thousand PF120s.
Logged

Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
FRAMEshift
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1681


Location: North Carolina


« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2012, 07:17:02 AM »

Why do you believe the the bees would act differently on 4.9 PF frames than on 4.9 wax foundation? Are the PF frames more defined?

The bees can easily reshape the wax impressions all the way down to the base.  The plastic base can't be reshaped so the cells have to be more distorted to be converted from small cell to large cell.  Maybe that explains it.... but it's not always easy to know WHY bees do something.  Sometimes you have to be satisfied with the experience of knowing WHAT the bees will do in a particular circumstance. 

I know that bees raised on standard foundation will draw out pf frames into usable 4.9 mm cells IF they don't have wax foundation or foundationless frames available to them.  It works.
Logged

"You never can tell with bees."  --  Winnie-the-Pooh
SEEYA
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 274

Location: USA

Poke a meek dog enough times.........!


« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2012, 09:40:53 AM »

Picking up my first bees in April, 2 - 3lb packages of Carnies
Here is my plan:
Long hives, foundationless - wood frames, with the brood frames set at a maximum of 1 1/4 inches.
Comments? Will this set up increase the chances of screwed up comb? The pf frames make me nervous; I have read (on this forum), where the bees stripped the wax off the plastic.
Logged

Live long and prosper!
kathyp
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 15076


Location: boring, oregon


« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2012, 11:12:33 AM »

ray, you should be fine.  it is altogether possible that they will make some messy comb, but they might do that no matter what you have put in.  use some kind of guide to get them started and you'll have a better chance of straight(er) stuff.  

to be honest, i wouldn't recommend that new people do anything other than basics.  skip the plastic.  skip the regression thing.  either use wax foundation or foundationless....and learn.  the first bees you get are not the last bees you will get. you can experiment when you know what you are looking at.  just my opinion because i think that the fastest way to kill off a new hobby is to discourage the hobbyist.  K.I.S.S.  
Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Finski
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3928

Location: Finland


« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2012, 12:11:26 PM »

.
Don't forget big honey yields!
Logged

.
Language barrier NOT included
BabcockFarms
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 168


Location: Spring Ranch, Nebraska


« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2012, 12:43:39 PM »

Thanks to all for your help! There was a lot of knowledge gained here.

I now have a much greater understanding of the regression progress. This I'm sure will guide me in my decision on how I choose to proceed. My greatest concern is not making any more mistakes than necessary starting out and to keep the bees healthy and happy. I'm sure I will probably make many mistakes along the way. I fully understand the KISS principal however this doesn’t seem to be any harder than not doing any regression.

The key thing I need to keep in mind is you still have to monitor and assist if needed the control of varroa. It has been noted many times this may or may not help reduce the varroa population. I still see no down side even if this doesn’t help. The regression back to a natural sized bee and cell would seem to be helping speed up nature’s normal process.
Logged

Ron Babcock

                                  "I believe the good that men do, will live long after they gone."
                                                                                                                          ~Mr. Fox Haas

<
BlueBee
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4167

Location: Mid Michigan


« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2012, 03:24:09 PM »

I agree with you babcock, I don’t see any real downside with small cells if that is what you want to do.  The only problem I think people might run into is getting the bees to draw good comb on the PF 120 frames.  If you do run into a problem there, it can be easily remedied by rolling on a thicker layer of wax.

What is really “natural” size though?  I think that could be debated.  Anthropologists tell use humans used to be much shorter than we are now.  Were we more “natural” sized back then than we are now?  Should we be regressed?  Do things change and evolve over time or is one point in time always better than another?  I don't know.
Logged
SEEYA
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 274

Location: USA

Poke a meek dog enough times.........!


« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2012, 04:23:06 PM »

>> If you do run into a problem there, it can be easily remedied by rolling on a thicker layer of wax.
1) is it a common problem?
2) roll? like painting? more info, please

>>Thanks to all for your help! There was a lot of knowledge gained here.
 applause  Ditto! Don't stop now!
Logged

Live long and prosper!
BabcockFarms
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 168


Location: Spring Ranch, Nebraska


« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2012, 05:22:02 PM »

BlueBee~

>>What is really “natural” size though?

You are absolutely correct. This topic could be debated and I agree your point has very valid merits, but from the reading I have done 4.9 is the average of cell size if the bees are left to their own accord, and is still true today. This seems to be based on what is drawn on foundation-less frames, and what is found in the wild.

This afternoon I was looking online for wedge top and solid bottom frames and haven't found a reasonable source. Has anyone else found one?
Logged

Ron Babcock

                                  "I believe the good that men do, will live long after they gone."
                                                                                                                          ~Mr. Fox Haas

<
BlueBee
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4167

Location: Mid Michigan


« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2012, 06:43:29 PM »

Q:  Is building good comb on PF 120/100 frames a common problem?
A:  I’m just one data point, but I would bet it varies from bee to bee and keeper to keeper.  It probably also depends on how super sized your package/nuc of bees are when you get them.  I could not get my stubborn bees to comb up the PF frames for the life of me until I started rolling on a thicker layer of wax.  My bees (MN Hygenics at the time) went out of their way to avoid those frames.  They would build double layer comb just to get away from the PF surface imprint.  I tried spraying with sugar water, had no effect.  I eventually started rolling a thicker layer of bees wax on the PFs and my bees combed them up perfectly. 

Q:  How do I roll Smiley
A:  If for some reason your bees snub their noses at the PF frames, I would suggest melting some bees wax and using a 4” wide foam roller to roll a modest coat of bees wax over the frames (imprints that is).  Rollers work much better than paint brushes IMO.  The frames smell wonderful after you’re done!  You can melt bees wax in a crock pot, but it is a slow process.  I use an old electric skillet and do it outdoors.  Gotta be careful not to heat the wax any more than needed to melt it since it is a fire hazard.  A water bathed melter would be safest, but how many people have them?  A little common sense and an old electric skillet works well. 
Logged
FRAMEshift
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1681


Location: North Carolina


« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2012, 09:53:39 PM »

This afternoon I was looking online for wedge top and solid bottom frames and haven't found a reasonable source. Has anyone else found one?
We use foundationless frames from Walter T. Kelley. 

Deep:  https://kelleybees.com/Products/Detail/?id=3336333533363333&grouped=1

Medium:  https://kelleybees.com/Products/Detail/?id=3336333533363338&grouped=1

The bees really like the wedged top bar and you can use it just fine with no wax (even though Kelley suggests waxing the wedge). 
Logged

"You never can tell with bees."  --  Winnie-the-Pooh
Michael Bush
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13622


Location: Nehawka, NE


WWW
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2012, 10:16:54 PM »

>1) is it a common problem?

I have over 3,000 PF120s and have not had that problem.

Logged

Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
BabcockFarms
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 168


Location: Spring Ranch, Nebraska


« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2012, 08:39:29 AM »

MB~

Good to know, you wouldn't have that many if there was any problems with them.
Logged

Ron Babcock

                                  "I believe the good that men do, will live long after they gone."
                                                                                                                          ~Mr. Fox Haas

<
SEEYA
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 274

Location: USA

Poke a meek dog enough times.........!


« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2012, 10:22:17 AM »

I got my unassembled Hoffman type frames, they are 1 3/8 wide and I am trying to decide what width to go with.
I am Building horizontal hives (2), so fitting a standard lang box is not important.

From: Micheal Bush's Website, modified by ME.
Comb Width by Cell Size
ABC XYZ of Bee Culture 1945 edition Pg 126

According to Baudoux (note this is the thickness of the comb itself and not the spacing of the comb on centers)

Cell Size    Comb width       Ratio*  W/min B.S.*   W/max B.S.*

5.555 mm    22.60 mm      4.07        28.6         32.6   
5.375 mm    22.20 mm      4.13        28.2         32.2
5.210 mm    21.80 mm      4.18        27.8         31.8
5.060 mm    21.40 mm      4.22        27.4         31.4
4.925 mm    21.00 mm      4.26        27            31
4.805 mm    20.60 mm      4.28        26.6         30.6
4.700 mm    20.20 mm      4.29        26.2         30.2
* categories added by ME.

Conversion to American

26mm = 1.023   1 1/32 = 1.032
27mm = 1.063   1 1/16 = 1.063
28mm = 1.10     1 3/32 = 1.09
30mm = 1.181   1 3/16 = 1.187
31mm = 1.22     1 1/4  = 1.25
32mm = 1.26   

Bee Space = B.S.(above)

6mm  = 0.236
1/4  = 0.25
3/8  = 0.375
10mm = 0.394

Regression to 5.1 cell, comb width should be 21.5mm with bee space; 27.5mm (1 3/32) min and 31.5mm max (1 1/4)
Regression to 4.9 cell, comb width should be 21 mm with bee space; 27mm and 31mm.
Regression to 4.7 cell, comb width should be 20.2mm with bee space; 26.2mm (1.031 or 1 1/32) and 30.2mm (1.189 or 1 3/16).

Modify side frames to 1 1/16, notch top bar to 7/8, then space at 1 1/4 for package installation?
Then regress to what?  1 1/8? There is a minimum. right? huh

What am I missing? other than my marbles grin

Thanks in advance Smiley M.B. I hope you don't mind the modification
« Last Edit: February 17, 2012, 08:19:14 AM by ray » Logged

Live long and prosper!
Michael Bush
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13622


Location: Nehawka, NE


WWW
« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2012, 10:35:14 PM »

>What I would like help understanding is when starting a “virgin” hive (one without any comb to start with). Is it better to start with empty frames (foundation or foundationless) versus a mixture of empty frames along with PF-100 or a similar product that has larger cells.

People have different agendas.  Some don't want plastic in a hive.  Some prefer wax.  Some prefer clean wax.  It depends on what compromises you are willing to make. All in all, I would do the PF120s (or if you want deeps the PF100s) as it will be the most reliable way to regress them cheaply.

> I know Michael said it takes them longer to accept the frames. If it takes two weeks to accept it would they pull enough comb in this two week period to offset the acceptance period and be better off just using wood frames?

No.  It doesn't take them longer to accept the PF120s.  They will accept them right away.  It takes longer for them to accept the HSC but they don't have to draw it.  They just need to use it, but it takes a couple of weeks to get them to use it.

>The PF frames seem to be the same as wood frames and wax foundation only plastic frame and plastic foundation sprayed with wax.

Yes.

>If I now understand correctly the difference, is there an advantage of PF frames versus something like Mann Lakes FN-267 a medium brood wax foundation with a 4.9 mm cell?

The Mann Lake FN-267 is just 4.9mm wax (available from many sources).  The likelyhood of ungressed bees building it 4.9mm is low but not unheard of.  It's more likely they will build it 5.1mm.

>I am leaning towards foundationless frames as my standard frame once established.

Once you have small bees, this is, IMO, the best plan.
Logged

Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
Vance G
Queen Bee
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1098

Location: Great Falls,Montana


« Reply #37 on: February 19, 2012, 12:06:24 PM »

I get an unwaxed 4.9 mm frame from Mann Lake that is not in their on line catalog.  My nucs came on 5.4 wax combs and I just started letting them expand onto the smaller size and scraping off bad patches as required.  The five nuc frames ended up as outside frames or culled by mid season.  The bees drew three and four supers of thes 4.9 frames trimmed so 11 went in a box for the brood boxes and by the end of the year, I beleive I have regressed bees and they draw the smaller size very well and uniformly.  However two colonies were still making messes at the end of the season, all bees are not created equal in Man compliant engineering.  It cost me very little extra time to accomplish this.  The frames cost $1.35 delivered and I put my clean pre fluvinate and coumophos wax on them so It just DID NOT cost anymore and it is sure not important to my radial extractor that the frames are 4.9 instead of 5.4!  If I one day decide this indeed is not necessary, it is not going to cost me a penny to quit buying only 4.9 MM  I suspect if they are still the best price I would continue buying them.  This whole matter is getting ridiculous.  Let people be and do what they want!  It is no skin off anyones nose.
Logged
Michael Bush
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13622


Location: Nehawka, NE


WWW
« Reply #38 on: February 19, 2012, 09:41:24 PM »

>Then regress to what?  1 1/8? There is a minimum. right? huh

Since Huber's time 1 1/4" has been considered normal spacing for brood for natural sized bees.  Yes, sometimes it falls as low as 1 1/8" but that is the bottom end of it and 1 1/4" is more common.  Sometimes it gets as high as 1 3/8", but those combs usually have a lot of drone cells on them.

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/CombSpacing30.JPG
Logged

Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
SEEYA
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 274

Location: USA

Poke a meek dog enough times.........!


« Reply #39 on: February 19, 2012, 10:24:39 PM »

>>Yes, sometimes it falls as low as 1 1/8" but that is the bottom end of it
   That's the answer I was looking for. Thank you!

I get carried away crunching numbers embarassed and sometimes create problems were there aren't any.
Logged

Live long and prosper!
Pages: 1 [2]  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Beemaster's Beekeeping Ring
Previous | Home | Join | Random | Next
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines | Sitemap Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.297 seconds with 21 queries.

Google visited last this page August 06, 2014, 05:33:50 AM
anything