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Author Topic: Insulated hive and insulated bottom  (Read 3838 times)
Finski
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« on: February 05, 2012, 02:21:50 AM »

.
A Finnish professional beekeeper has filmed a couple of days ago beehives.
Temp is -25C. Location near Tampere. 1000 hives. http://beekeeping.honeypaw.fi/


The hive has solid insulated bottom. You see later that the cluster is agaist the bottom.
The upper cover is pieces of insulation board.

bees wintering in finland



Extracting honey
HoneyPaw slituncapper 40 1
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Vance G
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« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2012, 11:33:18 AM »

Thankyou sir those were fine video's and I enjoyed both.  How much honey do the bees consume per month before they start brooding up in the spring?  How deep is that hive body?  It appears to be deeper than a Langstroth.  It appears the honey being extracted had started to sugar.  Are those steam lines to the honey paw?
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splitrock
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« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2012, 11:40:20 AM »

Very good video's Finski. Thanks for sharing with us.

I am surprised to see only one deep for wintering.

Joel
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Finski
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« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2012, 12:04:15 PM »

.
Yes, professionals here keep only one brood box. They keep the excluder. Hives are easier to handle and move.

Note, that the winterfood from September To Aprill/May are all in there.

Tampere town latitude is  61° N

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S.M.N.Bee
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« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2012, 12:24:27 PM »

Finski

Nice video's. I have not insulated the floors of my hives to date. I always thought heat will only rise so what would be the point.
The only benefit would be from radiant heat. Maybe I will install some insulation next winter. How thick of insulation is commonly used in the bottom board?

John
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derekm
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« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2012, 12:45:51 PM »

Insulating the bottom will only be of use if the top and sides are already well insulated. A well designed entrance that allows plenty of air but keeps the heat in, then follow that with an insulated bottom of the hive.  An air filled cavity with a heat source and external heat lossing sets up convection currents. These convection currents circulate around the cavity, thus making the insulation of the bottom of the cavity a factor in the overall heat loss. Simple physics until the bees step in an alter things, like blocking the entrance, restricting airflow...  Smiley

finski: v interesting ... how much insulation on the floor? at present I have ~ 50mm PIR = 75mm polystyrene
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
Finski
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« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2012, 12:52:36 PM »

.
Here beeks keep many kind of bottom boards. Polyhives have 2 standards, mesh and solid. It means 2 cm polyurethane. It is equal 20 cm wood - theory, because entrance is open and cold air come in.

Mesh floor may be too a type which many close for winter.

I am just making new floors which have slanting polycarbon board. When I made first, the condensation was huge onto polycarbon surface. Really much water droplets. So I must insulate them.

It means that when moist hive air meets the bottom, it condensates the more the less it has insulation value.
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Finski
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« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2012, 12:59:57 PM »

.
Clarification of "thermo bottom" by producer

- Polystyrene foam plastic
- Entrance 30 mm high - that will not be blocked by dead bees.
- a slanting bottom, fore 30 m, back 10 mm
- experience of wintering 900 hives on these bottoms.
- price 12.50 euros (in Finland)
« Last Edit: February 05, 2012, 01:16:29 PM by Finski » Logged

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Finski
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« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2012, 01:19:28 PM »

A well designed entrance that allows plenty of air but keeps the heat in, then follow that with an insulated bottom of the hive.

One secret of wintering is that the clusters of these professionals are really full of bees in Autumn.

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BlueBee
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« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2012, 03:39:17 PM »

Nice videos Finski, it’s been a while since we had a nice debate on insulated hives here.  Maybe it is due to the mild winter here in North America.  It looks like Finland is getting our snow this year Sad

What is the white stuff along the edges of the inner cover and brood box?  Is that mold or frost?  Look at the video at about the 2:08 mark.
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Finski
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« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2012, 04:15:06 PM »

Nice videos Finski, it’s been a while since we had a nice debate on insulated hives here.  Maybe it is due to the mild winter here in North America.


What is North America - mild winter eh!  forecast of Winninpeg Canada.'
Now +6C  tomorrow night -21C, thursday -8C day and night -20C.

Our winter started 2 weeks ago. In some places we had last night -40C. In Helsinki we had -25C.

http://www.weatherforecastmap.com/united_states/
http://www.weatherforecastmap.com/canada/


Quote
What is the white stuff along the edges of the inner cover and brood box?  Is that mold or frost?  Look at the video at about the 2:08 mark.



It is frost, condensated moisture from breathing of bees. It tells that interrior temp is under zero

.
The cluster is very tight. When disturbed it expands to the whole box.
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edward
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« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2012, 04:57:50 PM »

  How much honey do the bees consume per month before they start brooding up in the spring?

On the other side of the Gulf of Bohtnia in Sweden we feed the bees 12 to 18 kg of sugar to see them through the winter , a large portion is use in early spring to feed the new larvae.

mvh edward  tongue

Really COOL beekeeping  lau  rolleyes sorry couldn't help myself  Wink
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edward
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« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2012, 05:19:46 PM »

I tried to use the google interpreter on this but didn't get it to work  Sad

There are hives that are monitored over the net throughout Scandinavia

Ökning/minskning = Increase / decrease

Drag = honey flow , in this case fodring = feeding

Max -min Utetemp = max min outdoor temperature

Nerdebörd = rainfall , 0 = snow

Kuptemp = hive temperature

Click on ( Väljvåg ) then click on ( SE- Enköping ) to look at data , kg and celsius

http://biavl.volatus.de/bsm0/BSM.html#language=sv_SE


mvh edward  tongue
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BlueBee
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« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2012, 05:35:04 PM »

It’s warmer in Winnipeg today (43F/6C) than it is in Michigan (38F/3C), I’m pretty sure that isn’t normal!  We’ve been running about 5C above normal this winter.  The price of natual gas (home heating) has nose dived in North America due to our exceptionally mild winter.

Finski my hives have 5cm of polystyrene insulation.  I haven’t seen any frost inside.  In fact they are running about 70F/21C inside right now.
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rdy-b
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« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2012, 06:46:49 PM »

  cozy box of bees they have there- dont seam bothered a bit by the cold-was a lot of the ice
 we saw on the mouse guard from moisture from bees exhaling and condensing and running
 out the front of the hive or is there better way for vent-?

 the video about the extracting set up says they have the future method -because you dont need
 a wax centrifuge--dose the system revolve around what at first looks like a capping plane or knife
but with a closer look i think it is some kind of capping fork they run steam through to heat-
 so when it is hot and they scratch with it it dose not remove the capping it just opens it-a cold
capping scratcher always removes small size capping from the cell- Interesting approach and very clean

  cool  RDY-B
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Finski
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« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2012, 12:32:36 AM »


but with a closer look i think it is some kind of capping fork they run steam through to heat-
 so when it is hot and they scratch with it it dose not remove the capping it just opens it-


Well seen that system rdy-b,

The name to machine is "slit uncapping knife".  It has tiny hot blades which split the caps.
http://beekeeping.honeypaw.fi/Slit-uncapping.php
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Finski
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« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2012, 12:47:01 AM »

Thankyou sir those were fine video's and I enjoyed both.  How much honey do the bees consume per month before they start brooding up in the spring?  How deep is that hive body?  It appears to be deeper than a Langstroth.  It appears the honey being extracted had started to sugar.  Are those steam lines to the honey paw?

The frame size and box is normal Langstroth.

Those hives use mere sugar . You know that full feeded 10 frames of Langstroth has about 20-25 kg sugar and honey.  It is consumed from September to May, 9 months.

Hives start a small brood rearing in February during heavy frost. About first of May willows start to bloom and real brooding is possible.

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edward
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« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2012, 12:03:51 PM »

The name to machine is "slit uncapping knife".  It has tiny hot blades which split the caps.
http://beekeeping.honeypaw.fi/Slit-uncapping.php


how much does it cost ?
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Finski
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« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2012, 01:36:03 PM »


how much does it cost ?


Core tools seems to be 210 euros
http://biodling.honeypaw.fi/Hinnasto.php
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BlueBee
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« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2012, 08:35:07 PM »

Finski it looked like this hive had 3 or 4 parts for an inner cover?  Do you think those were just extra insulation boards to keep the top warmer than the sides or were they some type of top ventilation system?

You are using a top vent or entrance on your hives right?
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rdy-b
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« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2012, 09:58:37 PM »

  check out the bottom board it looks like its molded in one piece
 but the detail is that it has a ramp effect that creates a drain for moisture to
 run out the front-- Wink  RDY-B
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Vance G
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« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2012, 10:15:42 PM »

Canadian beekeeper Larry Dick reports on his forum honeybeeworld that the varroa seem to build up faster in epe boxes produced north of Calgary.  He attributes the increase in varroa  to the bees raising brood earlier and later in the season.  Do you find that to be the case in Finland Finski?
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rdy-b
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« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2012, 10:57:13 PM »

Canadian beekeeper Larry Dick reports on his forum honeybeeworld that the varroa seem to build up faster in epe boxes produced north of Calgary.  He attributes the increase in varroa  to the bees raising brood earlier and later in the season.  Do you find that to be the case in Finland Finski?
  ALLEN DICK--???
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Finski
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« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2012, 12:57:19 AM »

Canadian beekeeper Larry Dick reports on his forum honeybeeworld that the varroa seem to build up faster in epe boxes produced north of Calgary.  He attributes the increase in varroa  to the bees raising brood earlier and later in the season.  Do you find that to be the case in Finland Finski?

At least here early brooding does not depend on hive material.

Bees have brood earlier if they have good pollen stores after winter. Carniolan's strong Spring build up depends on good pollen stores. I know that, because when I started pollen feedinng 20 years ago to Italians and carniolans, their build up was the same.

No one has reported that Carniolan has more mites than Italians.

We have had years that bees have clearly longer brood period than in normal years. That makes difficulties with varroa.

Warm hive makes faster build up possible because brood ball can be bigger, but it does not make mites propagation cycle faster.  The brood temp is allway the same.

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Vance G
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« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2012, 09:31:21 AM »

Yes, Allen Dick!  I torture his name all the time for some reason.  My apologies.
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Finski
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« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2012, 10:10:18 AM »

.
What is epe boxes?
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rdy-b
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« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2012, 07:04:37 PM »

.
What is epe boxes?
EPS= expanded poly styrene --Styrofoam  Smiley RDY-B
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Finski
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« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2012, 01:44:40 AM »

EPS= expanded poly styrene --Styrofoam  Smiley RDY-B

When I read Allen Dick's writings, he had no experience about polyhives. The just thought things.
At least in our country the brooding start or stop does not depend on insulation or hive material.
It is pollen in nature which tells to bees when is time to rear brood.
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« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2012, 02:22:26 PM »

Cool videos, thanks for the post Finski. 

So far only my LONG Hive has an insulated bottom (and top) and it may not have helped them this year.  I'm not totally convinced yet if side or bottom insulation would be good for my Langs, and yes it may have something to do w/ this crazy weather  grin  I do insulate the tops.

thomas
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« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2012, 03:49:02 PM »

EPS= expanded poly styrene --Styrofoam  Smiley RDY-B

When I read Allen Dick's writings, he had no experience about polyhives. The just thought things.
At least in our country the brooding start or stop does not depend on insulation or hive material.
It is pollen in nature which tells to bees when is time to rear brood.

 He was comparing poly hive to a wood Hive--poly hive starts brooding earlier --varoa mite can live 5-6 months
 with bees that have no brood---because poly hive has brood before the wood hive it gets a huge surge of varoa
 flooding into the first round of brood--and thats where they got the higher mite counts -and there was correlation with
 the first round of brood having more mites under cap--whether it was poly hive or wood hive---these days the diary is
reflecting his work with poly hives and oxalic -with intense mite counting---RDY-B
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Vance G
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« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2012, 04:29:40 PM »

Yes RDY-b,,  You said what I only mumbled.  Apparently you follow his site too.  Have you also read Pederson Apiaries site in Alberta and Frenchbeefarm.com?  I find more of interest in the Canadian sites than what the more southern keepers find.  Beekeeping is local.
I think they just have more to teach me.  I just don't know if I have the guts to winter in single Langstroth deeps!  I guess I need to experiment. 
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« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2012, 04:41:18 PM »

Hey, me too Vance G.  I love them Canadian beeks and follow their lead often, just wish we had the same access to their bees as we used to have Cry

thomas
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« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2012, 04:58:13 PM »

          *Frenchbeefarm.com?*

  supper cool site -I will have to explore pederson-- Wink RDY-B
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rdy-b
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« Reply #33 on: February 08, 2012, 06:32:43 PM »

  HEres one for you Vance- Smiley
 http://www.stepplerfarms.com/Stepplerhoneynews.html
 RDY-B
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Vance G
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« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2012, 08:23:21 PM »

Thanks, I will add to my collection.  I am looking for one of those Ayelander wild men who build  two nucs in a divided 10 frame, separate entrances front and back and then put a queen excluder on it and super and let both sides store honey for surplus in same super.  When winter comes, they feed them heavily and put on a feeder box with sugar or fondant over the queen excluder and winter them that way communally.  They then divide them and run them as 10 frame singles the next year.   I need to find it again, but those are the details of what they are doing and they claim success.  This bluebird winter is giving me visions and i'm wondering if I could make these strategies work. 
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Finski
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« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2012, 12:26:38 AM »


When I read Allen Dick's writings, he had no experience about polyhives. The just thought things.
At least in our country the brooding start or stop does not depend on insulation or hive material.
It is pollen in nature which tells to bees when is time to rear brood.

 He was comparing poly hive to a wood Hive--poly hive starts brooding earlier --varoa mite can live 5-6 months
 with bees that have no brood---because poly hive has brood before the wood hive it gets a huge surge of varoa
 flooding into the first round of brood--and thats where they got the higher mite counts -and there was correlation with
 the first round of brood having more mites under cap--whether it was poly hive or wood hive---these days the diary is
reflecting his work with poly hives and oxalic -with intense mite counting---RDY-B
[/quote]

The difference is that I have 23 years experience on polyhives and mites.
I have read all Allen Dick's writings too and he say that Canadian tried a few ago polyhives.

 And thies is a first mentioning which says that polyhives has more mites. That is pure imagination.
Polyhives are so long and widely used in Europe that no one has mentioned that.

One thing more. Polyhives and wooden hives stop brooding in Autumn at same time. It tells that Allen did not have experience on polys.   

If Allen start to make his trials 20 years later than European professional beekeeprs, it doe not help.
.European varroa group worked on scientific bases several years to find out the best varroa control systems. Now Canada, 10 years later, accepted those results into practice officially.
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« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2012, 04:04:39 PM »

** And thies is a first mentioning which says that polyhives has more mites. That is pure imagination.
Polyhives are so long and widely used in Europe that no one has mentioned that.**


 if there more bees there more mites--if there more brood there more mites
if one hive broods first it has mites first--(under cap)
keeping everything in context and given the conditions are equal and balanced
 
 DOSENT NECESSARILY HAVE TO BE A POLY HIVE but thats the comparison
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Finski
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« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2012, 04:19:10 PM »

.

You need only kill mites. Not count them.
Polyhives are cold mines. Nothing wrong in them. They are really popular.

Mite killing is easy in climate like in Canada or Finland because we have a good brood brake.

If you want to use 20 years old mite killing methods, do it for God's sake but don't insult newer methods which you do not even know what they are.
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« Reply #38 on: February 09, 2012, 04:40:22 PM »

.

You need only kill mites. Not count them.

  I agree whole heartedly- cool RDY-B
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« Reply #39 on: February 10, 2012, 06:10:36 AM »

After 8 winters  I've had no mite issues to speak of (yet?), nor have I actively 'killed' any by introducing chemicals into any of my hives. 

I'm not sure I'd even want to kill them if I were to develop an issue, as I've come to believe the bees and mites likely depend on each other (we dumb humans just haven't figured it all out yet  grin ) and only by using proper management techniques w/ our colonies can we also 'limit' mites, not eliminate them. 

IMO; healthy bees = fewer mites

Frankly, I don't think its possible to kill mites without some consequences, such as also eventually killing off our bee colonies.  But hey that's just me, I'm not trying to convince anyone.

thomas
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« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2012, 04:59:47 PM »

Thanks, I will add to my collection.  I am looking for one of those Ayelander wild men who build  two nucs in a divided 10 frame, separate entrances front and back and then put a queen excluder on it and super and let both sides store honey for surplus in same super.  When winter comes, they feed them heavily and put on a feeder box with sugar or fondant over the queen excluder and winter them that way communally.  They then divide them and run them as 10 frame singles the next year.   I need to find it again, but those are the details of what they are doing and they claim success.  This bluebird winter is giving me visions and i'm wondering if I could make these strategies work. 

Vance G try this!    http://www.frenchbeefarm.com/splitting_method.html   
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Finski
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« Reply #41 on: February 10, 2012, 11:57:35 PM »



When we talk about insulation, I split polyhive boxes in two or in tree. Then I glue with polyurethane the missing walls. They are construction insulation boards.
The cover and bottom are insutaltion cover.

Nucs are very warm and they develope fine from queen mating nucs to wintering hives. When yield is over, I use queen and join the nucs to wintering colonies.

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« Reply #42 on: February 12, 2012, 01:02:50 PM »



When we talk about insulation, I split polyhive boxes in two or in tree. Then I glue with polyurethane the missing walls. They are construction insulation boards.
The cover and bottom are insutaltion cover.

Nucs are very warm and they develope fine from queen mating nucs to wintering hives. When yield is over, I use queen and join the nucs to wintering colonies.

.

So if I understand you correctly, you overwinter only in full size colonies and not in any nucs ?
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« Reply #43 on: February 12, 2012, 02:31:09 PM »

.
We overwinter much nucs too. 5 frame nucs are viable to go alive over winter.
But even big colonies loose their bees and in Spring the normal colony may be a twist size.

Just now I have about 10 four frame nucs aoutside. Temps have been -25c.

I have overwintered some 2-frame nucs with electrict heating and they did fine, but the Spring build up is imposible without bigger hives brood aid.

 
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« Reply #44 on: February 15, 2012, 11:47:39 AM »

those were some awesome videos...thanks for sharing
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« Reply #45 on: August 14, 2012, 08:17:35 AM »

In mid July we  needed  to house a swarm in hurry. This  meant I had to complete a floor NOW.
No mesh around so I used 2" foam instead.  

This lead to the new swarm (a cast) in a poly foam hive (PIR)  with 2" walls and 2" solid floor, with  the only  entrance starting 2" below the floor.

On the few really hot days 30C - no bearding at all

Took the first frames of honey 8 weeks after they swarmed.

Dont see why I should change for winter
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
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Location: Mid Michigan


« Reply #46 on: August 14, 2012, 10:11:46 PM »

Derekm, if I’m imagining this right, your swarm is in a box with a entrance under the hive?  What is the slot size?  I thought you were trying to achieve an open bottom area of around 12% before?  Does your 2" bottom achieve that? 

My original foam hives have 2” foam on all sides.  Some with bottom entrances, some with tops.  I still get bearding on hot days, but the bearding doesn’t start until much later in the day and then extends through the night.  (There is a long thermal time constant with foam)  That can be good, and that can be bad.  It is good with respect to wax moths.  No wax moth is going to get through a bearded entrance.  It is bad though if a cold front pushes through at night with cold rain.  A cold rain can kill a bunch of bearding bees.  When cold rain occurs here, it seems to be most frequent at night.

In my hives, a top entrance prevents the cold rain issues, but it is going to lose more heat in the winter.  Sometimes you just can’t win with bees  Sad
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derekm
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Location: glow in the dark Hampshire UK


« Reply #47 on: August 15, 2012, 09:48:58 AM »

The slot goes down and then thru the front gives a tunnel 12mm high 250mm wide and 50-75mm long. No other vent in the floor or roof  (didnt have time)
These hives are not painted so they are shiny aluminium all over.
a cast (only 1/5th of the original colony) she got mated, then spun up so fast shee was able to donate a frame of eggs in 6weeks and in 8 weeks had 3 frames of honey spare.
The frames with the brood on would look deserted to someone used other hives

They seem reluctant to cap the honey but the water content goes low very fast
And no bearding... 

A highly insulated, reflective  building a doesnt need as much Aircon as the only thermal load is the occupants
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
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