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Author Topic: Monsanto - What do you think?  (Read 6474 times)
luvin honey
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« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2012, 10:25:21 AM »

The number of Monsanto executives who have gone into Federal Gov't agencies is simply amazing. Granted, this is not an unbiased source, but here is one look at the issue: http://peopleforethicalliving.com/fda-usda-monsanto-pharma-gmo/

As an organic farmer, my reasons for despising Monsanto:
1. They are patenting our future food. I understand they have great expense and time, and that means a patent is financially necessary. But I don't believe seeds should be patented. Or, if it is to be, there should be tremendous oversight and regulation to be sure that patented seeds remain a tiny part of the overall seed population.

2. I don't trust GMO. And I don't trust a company that fights so hard to keep GMO from the food labels. Buying organic is the ONLY way to be sure you're not eating GMO. And now Monsanto is working extremely hard to get GMO alfalfa into organic the dairy industry. Yes, Monsanto is and has been pushing hard to weaken the standards of organic to allow GMO.

3. They claim a caring for humanity, but their business practices, including suicide genes, monopolies, farmer lawsuits, etc., would not appear to meet their claims.

4. ETA: GMO crops contaminate organic and other crops. If enough GMO is planted, it is actually possible that it could eventually eliminate ALL other non-GMO seed varieties.

"President Obama has unbelievably chosen to approve two biotech crops, Monsanto’s Roundup Ready genetically modified (GMO) alfalfa and Roundup Ready genetically modified (GMO) sugar beets. They will be planted as early as this spring, despite widespread acknowledgement that these crops are certain to contaminate both conventional and organic farmers’ non-GMO crops. The deregulation of GMO Roundup Ready alfalfa could lead to the genetic contamination of all conventional and organic alfalfa within five years."

My conventional farmer husband's reasons for despising Monsanto:
1. They are disrespectful of farmers. Their website says they have one word for why they're in business: "Farmers." But their lawsuits, prices and attitudes would indicate otherwise.

2. Their products DON'T WORK! DH says that they work in JUST the right conditions, but farming rarely has exactly the perfect conditions that a certain variety of seed wants. When he has used them in the distant past, they simply didn't live up to their promises, despite a huge cost disadvantage.







« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 10:36:01 AM by luvin honey » Logged

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T Beek
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« Reply #41 on: February 10, 2012, 11:35:40 AM »

Excellent job Luvin honey!!  cool  The congressional/corporate 'revolving door' needs a KING SIZE wedge asap and a guard with a club big enough to actually go after the criminals.

While many of us have ample reasons to mistrust Monsanto (see above) and their kind, a lot of the blame can be placed at the front (and back) doors of the WTO who actively and explicitly pursue the interests of BIG AG (BIG BIZ) around the globe.

thomas
« Last Edit: February 13, 2012, 10:39:00 AM by T Beek » Logged

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« Reply #42 on: February 11, 2012, 07:21:35 PM »

... Buying organic is the ONLY way to be sure you're not eating GMO...


You think so?  Have any of you kept up with any of the cases of food born illnesses contacted from fresh produce?  No?  Well most of these outbreaks result from eating raw organic fruits, greens, and veggies.  One of the requirements for labeling produce is that it must be fertilized with animal (usually farm animal) feces or composted plant matter. 
If you want your food to be safe, inspect it for animal (or in some cases sewage treatment plant sludge) before you shovel raw organic food into your pie hole.

Now I see nothing wrong with organics as long as the consumer employs a little of that most uncommon thing called common sense.  But I am not prepaired to hold my breath until the man or woman on the street gets an education about the relative dangers and benefits between so called "organic" food and food produced using other methods. 

IMHO, eating Organic is about a childish warm and fuzzy feeling, meaning feeling superior about our inferior selves, by finding something to hold over the heads of others.  Its like shouting, "LOOK AT ME, I'M BETTER THAN YOU BECAUSE MY ETHICS CAN BEAT UP YOUR ETHICS!!!  Just my two cents worth.

The following are 5 methods to control armyworms in wheat, oats, corn etc that are part of a well known European environmental groups’ efforts to promote organic agriculture in the Third World.
http://scholar.googleusercontent.com/scholar?q=cache:PQ7UjAlGXbgJ:scholar.google.com/&hl=en&as_sdt=0,1

Page 15, Physical methods (to control army worms)
1. Deep ditch:
Plow a deep ditch and keep it filled with water, if larvae are found to be moving
towards your field from adjacent fields. This will prevent larvae from transferring to your field. They will drown if they try.
Another method is to dig a deep ditch with vertical sides to trap larvae and prevent them from crawling out. Holes with a diameter of a fence post should be dug every 10 meters apart in the ditch. Larvae will congregate in the deeper holes where they may be crushed.
2. Pitfall traps:
Make pitfall traps. Pitfalls are the best means of collecting crawling insects.
3. Bring herds of cattle, sheep, or goats back and forth across affected areas to step on the worms.
4. Beat worms with sticks and twigs.
5. Hand pick the larvae and feed them to chickens.
Also see:
http://www.greenthumbarticles.com/article/Armyworms-a2839.html
Armyworms are not technically worms. They are the …caterpillar stage of a… moth. They feed on turf grasses and crops to include alfalfa, corn, beets, clover, and flax…. look for caterpillars 1”-2” in length, ranging in color from tan, to green, to dark gray… If you have… signs of …armyworm damage, spray …1 oz. dish washing soap per gallon of water… If armyworms are present, they will come to the surface to avoid the spray soaking into the soil.

Once they come to the surface, armyworms can be killed by dropping them in a bucket of boiling water or a pan of bleach. This is the… organic way to control a minor infestation…

Now I ask you, is it any wonder then that many people in the Third World think we in the First World are out to kill the people living in Developing Countries?
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BjornBee
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« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2012, 08:29:43 PM »

We went from a comment discussing eating organic as an effort to not eat GMO crops, to a discussion of armyworms with the rationale of a field guide from some group in Germany.  rolleyes

Isn't that like discussing or comparing apples to oranges? Of course if you don't want to eat GMO, one should seek out organic produce. Does that mean organics don't have issues or concerns? I would imagine every method has issues. But how do you support in some twisted way or rationalize GMO crops, and justify attacking organic produce for another issue altogether, while taking exception to a field guide giving advice on armyworms?

That....is some huge dots being connected.

By the way...How many people in third world countries think we are trying to kill them? I personally think we should quit handing out dollars and let them fend for themselves. But I keep hearing I am wrong for thinking that. But Bill gates and the GMO multi-billion dollar industry will certainly come to their rescue. Afterall, with global warming coffers drying up, food industry control is the place to have your money for the next 10-20 years or so.  Wink

So what we are left with, is folks like Bill Gates who thinks that third world countries should be controlled by GMO companies like ADM, DuPont, and Monsanto.

Here is the path I suppose some think is the proper approach. http://tv.naturalnews.com/v.asp?v=227D7E07509381609DBF1873A2E6E3B3

Spread the GMO and neonicotinoids around in the third world countries. Don't practice organic methods. Don't do what some think might be better than the farming we have here now.

I am always amazed when beekeepers themselves are against any efforts to do better than GMO and corporate mono-agriculture farming with environmentally harmful chemicals. I guess we will never learn.  rolleyes
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bee-nuts
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« Reply #44 on: February 11, 2012, 10:13:44 PM »

Im sure bill gates feels the educated folk can make better choices for the poor 3rd world folks can themselves.  Im sure in his mind the best way to feed them is GM crops that are drought hardy and such but what he don't realize is that they are put into consensual slavery once they convert to the GM seed.  
« Last Edit: February 13, 2012, 02:15:51 PM by bee-nuts » Logged

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kingbee
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« Reply #45 on: February 11, 2012, 11:45:03 PM »

... We went from ...discussing eating organic as an effort to not eat GMO crops, to a discussion of armyworms...

The intent of quoting the environmental group in question is to impress upon the minds of some how totally ridiculous the anti-GMO rhetoric has become.  Besides, agriculture is not the well spring of human civilization and it never was, warfare is.  Making war on ones neighbor is how mankind has fed himself since the dawn of time.  You can never build a peaceful society on the jutting ribs or bloated stomach of a hungry child, warfare is the result every time you try.
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T Beek
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« Reply #46 on: February 12, 2012, 07:35:02 AM »

Such confusion and misguided thought permeates this site I don't know why I even bother.  You're all so smart it just kills me  rolleyes

If some of us 'really' want to stop helping the third world and just let them 'fend for themselves', perhaps the folks who feel this way should also begin demanding that the corporate world, BIG OIL, BIG AG, BIG BIZ, WTO stop stealing (helping themselves to) their resources and start paying the people up front instead. 

The Masters:  A much harder target indeed, w/ many more protections than an average citizen, but well worth the effort and considerably more deserving of our scorn and condemnation than the poor.

IMO; Adopting such a position would represent the 'beginning of the end of poverty' in the third world, but the powers that be along w/ their tools and fools will not let it happen w/out a fight.   I'm pretty certain that explains conservatism as is practiced these days. 

The conservation of 'the way it is' for those at the top.

Just a thought  Wink.

t
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SEEYA
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« Reply #47 on: February 12, 2012, 08:56:02 AM »

>>If some of us 'really' want to stop helping the third world and just let them 'fend for themselves',
 We give the third world 'chump change', tell them how to run there economies, and then sell them food (& stuff) cheaper than they can produce them there selves. (We:I am talking about the developed world). Is that helping?
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splitrock
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« Reply #48 on: February 12, 2012, 10:46:07 AM »

"Have any of you kept up with any of the cases of food born illnesses contacted from fresh produce?  No?

Hand up high hoping kingbee is looking...... I HAVE I have!!!!!

"Well most of these outbreaks result from eating raw organic fruits, greens, and veggies."

Wrong again!!! Do you keep up with what you type??? Eating something that isn't poisonous doesn't cause anything but, taste bud satisfaction, appetite suppression/relief, nutrient intake, and sometimes weight gain. And you like us to believe you know what you are talking about?Huh?

Seems many of these cases the offending bacteria was shown to have came about from feral hogs waste in the streams and creeks used for irrigation, and produce wasn't washed sufficiently. You still want to blame the organic produce kingbee???
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splitrock
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« Reply #49 on: February 12, 2012, 11:30:14 AM »

"If you want your food to be safe, inspect it for animal (or in some cases sewage treatment plant sludge) before you shovel raw organic food into your pie hole."

Kingbee, out here in farm country they have been spreading their animal waste for centuries. I take some good ol organics from my cows and chickens and shovel some onto my garden plot annually. Do you know about anything on this subject,.... that is right anyway?Huh

If you really want your food to be safe, buy organic and wash it well. You can wash chemicals off your foods fairly well, but it's pretty hard to get it out of your chemicaly treated food when the root takes it into the plant.  Take off those dark glasses/blinders and re -read that kingbee and let it soak in. Or are you of the mindset that cow poop is still cow poop after it degrades into the soil and it is absorbed through the plant root and the roundup is healthy or gone???

"IMHO, eating Organic is about a childish warm and fuzzy feeling, meaning feeling superior about our inferior selves, by finding something to hold over the heads of others.  Its like shouting, "LOOK AT ME, I'M BETTER THAN YOU BECAUSE MY ETHICS CAN BEAT UP YOUR ETHICS!!!

Earth to king bee, Earth to king bee. It's about eating better by not eating man made and applied toxins to our food, and working toward a healthy long life. Nothing more. Sorry you feel that way, it make you appear insecure. I sure hope it's not from a heavy metals toxicity. Your favorite fertilizers and treatments like to accumulate/build up in your system and wreak havoc. You'll see.
 
"Just my two cents worth."

weren't worth half of that I have to say.

Joel

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T Beek
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« Reply #50 on: February 12, 2012, 11:59:33 AM »

 applause applause Loving that man.  We always have to be on guard for the 'experts'  best to trust our first instinks  Wink.

t
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luvin honey
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« Reply #51 on: February 13, 2012, 10:29:47 AM »

... Buying organic is the ONLY way to be sure you're not eating GMO...

You think so?  ......Now I see nothing wrong with organics as long as the consumer employs a little of that most uncommon thing called common sense.  But I am not prepaired to hold my breath until the man or woman on the street gets an education about the relative dangers and benefits between so called "organic" food and food produced using other methods. 

IMHO, eating Organic is about a childish warm and fuzzy feeling, meaning feeling superior about our inferior selves, by finding something to hold over the heads of others.  Its like shouting, "LOOK AT ME, I'M BETTER THAN YOU BECAUSE MY ETHICS CAN BEAT UP YOUR ETHICS!!!  Just my two cents worth.

Now I ask you, is it any wonder then that many people in the Third World think we in the First World are out to kill the people living in Developing Countries?

It's not a matter of what I think. It's a fact that GMO seeds are not allowed in organic ag. So if you want to be guaranteed to not eat GMO, you have to eat organic. Of course any system can have cheating and abuse.

Your comments about fecal contamination have nothing to do with GMO. It's a shame, and organic needs to be held to great food safety standards, but probably not to the point of irradiating everything to be sure it's sterile. Kind of defeats the purpose of organic.

As for your comments about common sense, to me you sound like someone without much exposure to organic production of food. I spend a fair amount of time with people who grow food. They appear to me to be ethical, genuinely caring about health and environment and honest.
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The pedigree of honey
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luvin honey
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« Reply #52 on: February 13, 2012, 10:34:36 AM »

One more thought for anyone who thinks Organic is warm and fuzzy, new fangled, bunch of crap bologna for left-leaning liberals and overly wealthy Americans:

Organic is the way food HAS ALWAYS BEEN GROWN, with the tiny exception of the 1940s until the present time. There is nothing new about it. The post-war industrial complex needed a place to dump all the chemicals left from war, and they started turning it into fertilizers and ag chemicals.

So, organic is old. Very old. It's the way people have always fed themselves until after WWII.

And, Kingbee, actually spend some time in ag before you talk like you understand it all. I am surrounded by conventional agriculture. The neighbor next to me used to spray his fields at least a dozen times per year, until he died of brain cancer in his 60s. There is a HUGE difference between organic and conventional, and lack of chemicals is just one part of that.
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The pedigree of honey
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« Reply #53 on: February 15, 2012, 02:53:58 AM »

Organic is not what you may describe.  It has been known for thousands of years that certain amendments would increase yield, but wasn't known as we understand Organic Agriculture now days.

True composting wasn't invented until just before WWII.  Sir Albert Howard in India noticed farmers were healthier in the long run than farmers he saw closer to the cities.  He theorised the farmers closer to the metropolitan areas were forced to buy taxed artificial fertilizers from the empirical british run supply.  It wasn't that the farmers in the countryside thought it was a better practice, rather it was too far and too expensive to travel.  Artificial fertilizers are like eating starch, sugar, and fat to get your nutrition, so the theory states the plants were in poor health, and as a result the nutrition of the farmers growing them was lacking.

Farmers in history and those days would take all the animal and human wastes, dump them in the fields, and plow them in, in the spring.  He realized nutrients were being lost to the elements, and devised a system where wastes were piled in a wide flat pile, about a foot high, so it would receive rain water and oxygen.  The result was then spread around and plowed in.

Before science was acceptable, fields were used for a year, allowed to lay fallow for 2 or 3 years to allow nutrition to build up from the action of Azotobacter storing mineral nitrogen.  Earthworms were thought to be "Baby dragons," and were shunned outright.  Rich gardeners in ancient cities would buy the dried residue of sacrificial altars to stir into the soil of their flowerbeds.

Problems that arise from modern farming derive from bad sanitation and practices instead of use of waste materials and chemicals to enrich soils.  For example, he worst parasitic nematode in industrialized countries, the intestinal roundworm, is caused by ingesting the eggs by swallowing soil that has come into contact with feces.  Farmers in poor countries unknowingly "finding an ass-high stump" while out in the fields is a really good reason to wash your vegetables from the grocery before you make the salad.

Modern organic practices are meant to manage this.  Sewage sludge is treated first, manures hot composted, food and garden wastes processed through the guts of voracious litter worms and insect larvae.  This may sound like a reason to escape "old broken" practices, but industrialized methods bring on a whole new can of worms, so to speak.  Rock dusts, for centuries, have been mined to spread on arable land to increase fertility, but the nutrition is locked until an external action, biological, chemical, or mechanical, releases it.  Chemical fertilizers cannot replace all nutrient needs of the crops, and can actually interrupt the natural action in the soil.  One cause of "Blue Baby" syndrome (acquired methemoglobinemia) is nutrient pollution.  Nitrates leaking into drinking supplies.

Don't start "pounding the pulpit."  Each side has its pros and cons.
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T Beek
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« Reply #54 on: February 15, 2012, 07:14:17 AM »

Excellent discussion.  All have made rational points and articulate arguments.

The problem I personally see w/ so-called organic occurred w/ its legal 'adoption' by large commercial producers who corrupted the very definition of organic.  It no longer passes the smell test IMO. 

Personally I trust little that wasn;t grown outside my own back door and harvested by me and mine.

That all said, up to 90% of ALL food borne illnesses could be prevented by just WASHING our food FIRST.

t
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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #55 on: February 15, 2012, 10:08:06 PM »

This story was posted today on Slashdot.

http://science.slashdot.org/story/12/02/15/1956248/300k-organic-farmers-to-sue-monsanto-for-seed-patent-claims
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« Reply #56 on: February 15, 2012, 10:42:07 PM »

I'm not sure what they are doing with bees but.....

My thinking on this subject is that if chemicals may be hurting the bees they should just be taken off the market. The bees shouldn't be tampered with so they can tolerate the chemicals.

   I hope they don't infect the beautiful bees with some genetic hocus pocus.   I admit this topic is a bit over my head but I am concerned about the subject. I love Honey Bees and don't want a big corporation to hurt them or stockpile the rights to them.   I hope the worries about this company are just beekeeper paranoia and they don't plan to try to do what they are doing with seeds to bees.
 
                  Please Monsanto if you read this, don't hurt Honey Bees.

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kingbee
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« Reply #57 on: February 16, 2012, 03:35:59 AM »

... Kingbee, out here in farm country they have been spreading their animal waste for centuries. I take some good ol organics from my cows and chickens and shovel some onto my garden plot annually...

So do I.  In fact I add horse manure, my daughter's cat‘s litter, a smidgen of commercial chicken litter, a little sawdust and some pine needles to my garden.  But if I am growing food in this manner I prefer to cook it.  If I am growing a root crop like radishes, carrots, or onions that may or will be consumed raw I grow these veggies in a separate bed and broadcast or side dress the bed with some good old fashion Triple 13.

... organic is old. Very old...


So is the ancient tradition of burning witches at the stake or the time honored practice of bloody pogroms against helpless people of the Hebrew persuasion. Being old, very old, or even very very old doesn't make any of the above practices right. Any more than being new, very new or even very very new makes any of the things we are speaking about wrong.  This is called an analogy, I am not accusing you of any of the things I mentioned.

... Kingbee, actually spend some time in ag before you talk like you understand it all. I am surrounded by conventional agriculture...

So do I, I have conventional agriculture on all sides of me.  In fact I was raised in conventional agriculture by conventional farmers on a conventional farm, and I have lived cheek in jowl with conventional agriculture all my life, most of it in cotton country no less.  In case you folks up there in the Dakotas don't plant very much cotton these days, the cultivation of cotton required (past tense) THE most intense and prolonged use of chemical insecticides of all crops along with some of the most intense physical cultivation of any row crop on the face of the Earth.   Now that the work of controlling or managing agricultural insect pests is being preformed by GMOs like Bt cotton and corn or Round Up ready cotton, corn, soybeans and canola makes no till agriculture possible, I am once again able to keep bees without a lot of drama.  
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 03:52:19 AM by kingbee » Logged
luvin honey
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« Reply #58 on: February 16, 2012, 03:07:50 PM »

... messed up on editing Sad
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splitrock
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« Reply #59 on: February 16, 2012, 06:41:49 PM »

... organic is old. Very old...


"So is the ancient tradition of burning witches at the stake or the time honored practice of bloody pogroms against helpless people of the Hebrew persuasion."

Rocks are old too and have about as much to do with ancient gardening practices as your straw man arguments. Is your occupation a comedian?Huh

" Being old, very old, or even very very old doesn't make any of the above practices right."

 But one of them is still going on with lots of followers, and I bet we ALL agree the other programs should have gone away..

  "Any more than being new, very new or even very very new makes any of the things we are speaking about wrong.  This is called an analogy, I am not accusing you of any of the things I mentioned."

I nailed it.
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