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Author Topic: Space Cadet  (Read 2858 times)
BlueBee
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« on: January 27, 2012, 07:58:58 PM »

Space Cadet Newt says if he is elected president we will have a colony on the moon by 2020.  Is that about the looniest idea we’ve heard yet?  How many extra trillions of dollars do we have sitting around to spend on such a crazy idea? 

Yeah, I know, Newt says he would offer up “prizes” to get commercial enterprises to do the heavy work so it wouldn’t cost the tax payers cost any money.   Right……    Putting a base on the moon would cost trillions, no matter whom is funding it.  Not even the mighty Apple has that kind of cash to burn.  As Romney suggested in the debate, no sane business man/woman would waste that amount of money just for “fun”.

So is Newt a bona fide Space Cadet or not?  What do you think?
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« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2012, 08:02:54 PM »

Going to the moon the first time was looney, right?  All fun money, right?    Look at all the science and new inventions that came out of it.   I think rather than living on the moon, we should look for resources that we could use either there or in the asteroids that are out there.   Just to help recoup some of the cost of space exploration.   
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« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2012, 08:20:16 PM »

We weren’t trillions in debt in the 1960s, which makes the idea of going to the moon a little less loony.  Why send men when robots can do the job better and much cheaper.  I think we’ve learned a whole lot more from our robot explorers than we ever did/will learn from a manned space program.

I did hear some speculation that one of the near earth asteroids might contain tons of gold.  Maybe we could suit up those gold miners from Oregon to go pan for gold on an asteroid next season?  Let discovery channel pay for it though grin
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« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2012, 08:52:57 PM »

Yeah right. Like the nuts would ever allow us to rape the resources of an asteroid. It would take years of intergalactic councils, EPA studies, global warming studies that would show setting off the rockets being detrimental for something I'm sure, and whatever research (another term used for "lining Al Gore's pockets" for that to happen.   rolleyes

Of course, since a few years back, the battle cry from the left was if they could get the dem elected, they would have superman back on his feet within a couple years, perhaps they can get him to fly it back to earth.  lau

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« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2012, 09:29:09 PM »

private investors and companies are getting into space exploration.  i didn't hear what Newt said, but there is a difference between funding something in giving incentive so achieve something.  in our state, we have given some tax incentives to companies who have moved here.  the net intake from the industry and employment was a gain.  i have no problem with that.  we have to much tax and regulations anyway.  i would not have been in favor of funding the industry to get it to move here, or to get it started.

when we began our adventures in space, much of the tech was highly classified.  this is no longer the case.  while i do thing we should have a space program because it is in our national/defense interest to have one, i don't think we need to fund every new space enterprise.  if you want to build a federal prison on the moon, i'm all for it.  if you want a resort, let Virgin do it. 
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« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2012, 12:51:47 PM »

Newt’s “incentives” to cajole private companies to go to the moon would make the Solyndra incentives (loans) look like monopoly money.  Since the Republicans never pay for what they spend, we would end up trillions more in debt. 

Just once I would like to hear a politician say they don’t want to start anything new, just fix what is broken.  Seems they all want to spend on some grandiose thing so they can go into the history books for doing something “great”.
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« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2012, 01:59:49 PM »

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Since the Republicans never pay for what they spend, we would end up trillions more in debt. 


interesting comment and you have made it before.  it is not untrue, but please explain how the democrats are paying for what they are spending?  i know you'll say the taxes should be raised on the "rich", but even if that were done, it would not come close to covering what is being spent. 

http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt_histo5.htm

our outstanding debt is now equal to our annual real GDP.  at about this point, countries like Greece began to implode.  like Greece, the majority of our spending is on programs in which the federal government should should have no involvement, those being social welfare programs, education, and pensions.
since this admin has spend massive amounts of money and paid for the spending by borrowing and printing, i'd love to know how you think they will pay for what they have done?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2012, 08:06:14 AM »

What is the difference between going to an asteroid and the moon? 

The monies given to the companie(s) that folded was done by a democratic administration.  You are only seeing the side you want to see and not the big picture
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« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2012, 12:52:24 PM »

When Obama took office the debt for each individual citizen in the United States was $34,000. In three years it has gone up to $48,000, and it will be $50,000 by election day. I guess that means the Dems are paying for their programs.

Just a few things that alot of the money has been spent on by the Dems.
1. Ener1: makes batteries for electric cars.
2. Evergreen Solar
3. Spectra Watt
4. AES:  a subsidiary of Eastern Energy
5. Solyndra
All these companies were given millions by Obama. All have gone bankrupt and guess who got hung with the debt.
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« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2012, 12:58:04 PM »

To tell the truth,I'm not sure I'm comfortable with Russia and China being the only ones in space.If they control it,it could be more detrimental than any air superiority in past battles.
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« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2012, 12:59:55 PM »

Maybe our way back would be on the premise of taking back the lunar rocks and cleaning up the stuff we left behind last time we visited! you know,an enviromental mission. Smiley
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« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2012, 02:18:35 PM »

Im with buzzbee   grin
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« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2012, 03:08:22 PM »

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What is the difference between going to an asteroid and the moon?

A lot more money to go to an asteroid since they are generally much further away than the moon.  A relatively close asteroid already visited by a robot explorer is Eros.  It is more than 70 times further away than the moon.  Do we need a Saturn 5 rocket x 70?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/433_Eros

Quote
If they control it,it could be more detrimental than any air superiority in past battles.

Earthlings, we have a treaty to prevent the militarization of space.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Space_Treaty

Can’t we just focus on fixing the Earth before spending trillions on some crazy pointless fun ride?  If a President has to spend money (and they all seem to think that way) wouldn’t we be better off with a Manhattan type project to rid ourselves of oil than any of Newt’s loony ideas?  Getting rid of oil would pay back $500billion plus into our economy every year. 
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« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2012, 03:35:03 PM »

I do not put a lot of faith in those treaties. In a time of war,do you think they will respect those treaties? Where would we go,to the UN? that would be a joke.
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« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2012, 05:09:25 PM »

If we don’t believe in Treaties, what good is the rule of law?
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« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2012, 10:00:19 PM »

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If we don’t believe in Treaties, what good is the rule of law?

we have to believe in them.  they do exist.  treaties are only good if everyone signs them and everyone sticks to them.  that never happens.  usually those few countries who do try to stick to them get the shaft.  can't think of any off hand that have worked as they were supposed to and can think of plenty of times that the countries which observed them were punished for the effort.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2012, 08:01:26 AM »

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/jul/27/russia-violated-91-start-till-end-us-report-says/?page=all

And with this I assume we should trust Russia and China with the Space frontier.If they control space,the US homeland could be under the largest threat of annihilation that it has ever been under.Possibly even defenseless from ICBM attacks.
Reagan was very tough on the commies,but none have been since then.I would rather we had the keys to the final frontier.

And as far as these treaties go,lets just sign them,we can read them later!! grin grin
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« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2012, 08:34:39 AM »

Well,today is primary day in Florida. A lot of the people that were laid off in the space industry were from Florida. I am betting most of them were counting on the Constellation project for their futures. Perhaps the space industry and all the technological jobs that went with it should be moved off shore also.
I wonder how many people lost their jobs in this high tech industry? I'll bet it's staggering through the ripples.
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« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2012, 03:18:00 PM »

Do you know how much it cost to send the space shuttle up on each mission?  500 million dollars!  That is a ABSURB waste of tax payer money IMO.  $500 million of YOUR money, people!!!!  That’s a Solyndra EVERY time that thing went up!  That’s a state of the art auto assembly plant every 2 times the thing went up.  It was a monumental waste of capital and tax payer money. 

Quote
Perhaps the space industry and all the technological jobs that went with it should be moved off shore also.
If it’s cheaper, isn’t that the American way?  Look at where 50% of American’s buy their cars.

Quote
I wonder how many people lost their jobs in this high tech industry? I'll bet it's staggering through the ripples.
Not even a drop in the bucket compared to the jobs lost when the politicians shipped auto jobs overseas.  Weren’t the Republicans adamant about not bailing out GM and Chrysler?  Millions of jobs there.

If manned space flight is as “valuable” as people claim, then let private industry do it.  What's wrong with that? 
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« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2012, 05:01:19 PM »

Hmm,
I think Toyota,VW, Huyandai BMW and others build cars here in the great ole USA. Last I knew that made AMERICAN jobs.Maybe if consumers stay away from these cars,we can put a bunch more auto workers out.Kind of a two edged sword.
And why do people buy these "foreign" made cars? Because they produce something the people want.The quality built into a lot of these cars far exceeds what US automakers produce.
Believe it or not,all these "foreign" cars have to meet all the same emissions standards and fuel mileage standards and usually beat out the domestics.
People never complained for a long time when a good bunch of our American cars were made in Canada(a foreign nation).It wasn't until they started producing in Mexico that the crying started.

As far as space jobs,I just through that out for fodder.But it is as vital of a  part l of our national defense going into the future as the aircraft carriers were in our past.Especially when the tyrants start acquiring nukes.
 It will be a shame when some of our brightest minds in the aerospace industry trickle away to other occupations.
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« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2012, 05:10:40 PM »

The military has their own space program; that is NOT NASA.  NASA is CIVILIAN!  NASA is what should be privatized.  Why do the Republicans want big state run industries like NASA?  Almost sounds like they miss communism to me  huh
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« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2012, 07:05:36 PM »

NASA is not civilian.  it is a cooperation between military and civilian components.  more civilian involvement now, than in the past.  when NASA was born, much of the tech was highly classified.  now, to the extent that private companies can provide services like satellite launch, etc. i think it's great to have them do it. 

however, the space program still has military and intel jobs to do.  also, if we are going to be involved in things like an international space station, we should be able to get our own people and stuff up there. 

as a conservative, i like to see private industry doing most things.  i am not an anarchist.  there is a place for government. as an example, we have an aging and vulnerable power grid.  rather than spend money bailing out unions, i'd rather have seen the billions spend on things like the power grid.  that would have been a useful and necessary spending of tax dollars.

it's funny to me that you think it's a good use of our tax money to throw it down the toilet on "stimulus" but not on something that is not only useful, but has contributed massively the the life style we now lead. 
you probably can stand in one room and lay hands on 10 things that were in some way a result of the space program...then developed and marketed to the public by private industry.  it's one of those rare times when you get a net win from a government program.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2012, 07:12:59 PM »

>>and usually beat out the domestics.
   not anymore!

>>.It wasn't until they started producing in Mexico that the crying started.
   Actually, it was Japan.
   I wouldn't wimper a bit if Mexican worker's were making as much as Canadian workers.

>>space jobs
   KEEP Them ALL!

>> If we don’t believe in Treaties, what good is the rule of law?
    Ask any Native American.

We have a huge and diverse planet. Does anybody think it strange; that we have gone to the Moon, but not the bottom of the Mariana's Trench? We have bombs that can kill millions and floating cities to enforce our will, but we don't KNOW the planet we inhabit!
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« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2012, 07:21:07 PM »

All the chatter aside; Ol Newt was just buying votes! ( just like all politicians!) He is also going to: FREE CUBA!.
Florida: NASA, Cuban Expatiates and ?
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« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2012, 09:27:22 PM »

So it's about the money and not jobs.My confusion. I guess we can ship all of them over seas as long as we pay the workers enough. that's an interesting concept.
 I think it boils down that Canadian workers are UAW members.So then it becomes something other than an American jobs issue.
I still think as long as our adversaries are doing space travel,we should be at the top of the game. And I think ending the embargo with Cuba would be more mutually beneficial than keeping the status quo.
And Obama sure bought a lot of votes bailing out GM and Chrysler.Basically subsidized car companies benefiting from  true corporate welfare. Evidently they lost their ability to compete with what other were producing(aka loss of market share) or the  other companies would have needed the same resuscitation.

I still think as long as our adversaries are doing space travel,we should be at the top of the game. And I think ending the embargo with Cuba would be more mutually beneficial than keeping the status quo.
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« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2012, 09:30:55 PM »

i agree on cuba.  we should have ended that long ago and it would have ended castro long ago. 

if you paid the auto workers in Mexico the same dollar amount that you pay American workers, that would throw quite a wrench in their economy.  instant millionaires!  smiley  wonder how that would work out?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2012, 09:37:56 PM »



>> If we don’t believe in Treaties, what good is the rule of law?
    Ask any Native American.

We have a huge and diverse planet. Does anybody think it strange; that we have gone to the Moon, but not the bottom of the Mariana's Trench? We have bombs that can kill millions and floating cities to enforce our will, but we don't KNOW the planet we inhabit!

Perhaps we have been there and they won't tell us what is there. Hanger 18 stuff!!

Right on about the Indians.
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« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2012, 10:18:49 PM »

Wow, I think we have an agreement folks!  End the embargo on Cuba!

So who is stopping that from happening?  Every time Obama or Clinton loosed the noose the Republicans went nuts.  Why?

So it looks like the next stop for the crazy train is Nevada.  What is Newt going to offer up to them?  Move Yucca Mountain to the moon?
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« Reply #28 on: February 01, 2012, 06:51:24 AM »

>>So it's about the money and not jobs.My confusion. I guess we can ship all of them over seas as long as we pay the workers enough.

How many of the 11 million  illegal immigrants  are Canadian?  It is ALL about money.
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« Reply #29 on: February 01, 2012, 07:59:42 AM »

How much do they pay the Mexican workers at the car plants? They may not be the ones crossing the border.
How many of the 11 million left the car plant to come here?

As far as Cuba, I think the chances of a mutually beneficial relationship has a better chance now with the Castros in decline.
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« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2012, 01:22:57 AM »

... Earthlings, we [already] have a treaty to prevent the militarization of space...


German Chancellor and Furher Adolph Hitler to his Foreign Secretary Von Ribbentrop on the signing of the treaty with Great Brittan and Nettle Chamberland that gave Czechoslovakia to Germany.  "Don't worry, this ridiculous piece of paper means nothing to me!" A. Hitler
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« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2012, 03:12:51 AM »

I can see your point Kingbee.  Seems the Reagan admin had little respect for the laws either when it came to Iran Contra and the ABM treaty.  But what do you do?  Just abandon all treaties and attack at will? 

I doubt the Mullahs in Tehran give a hoot about treaties with "infidels" either.  But what do you do?
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« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2012, 09:05:38 AM »

>>But what do you do?
 I dunno
"Trust in the Lord, but, keep your powder dry"
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« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2012, 10:12:09 AM »

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Every time Obama or Clinton loosed the noose the Republicans went nuts.  Why?

you have an amazingly narrow point of view.  i have thought for many years that the sanctions on travel and trade with cuba should be lifted.  the reason they have not is because there is a powerful and wealthy cuban lobby and they have many sympathetic law makers on both sides.  it is true the the older cuban vote tips more to the republicans, but both sides of the old guard in congress have blocked this.  i don't think it will last much longer.

Quote
But what do you do?  Just abandon all treaties and attack at will
?

no, but great care should be taken in signing them.  when you make a pact with international players, you'd better be very sure, and very careful, that you are not going to be the one grabbing your ankles when it's all done.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2012, 05:08:56 PM »

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you have an amazingly narrow point of view.
A kitchen proverb comes to mind here.  Something about a pot and kettle….

Quote
i don't think it will last much longer.
You might want to actually learn the positions of your Republican candidates.  Watch any debates?
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« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2012, 06:47:17 PM »

it is A.  not practical (hasn't been for the last 20 years ) and B. more and more of the younger generation cubans want it changed.  it was a reasonable police even through the years of the USSR support of cuba, but that ended long ago. 
doesn't really matter what they say.  it is a policy that has more than run it's course.  we may wait until castro dies, but that won't be long. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2012, 01:22:40 AM »

I can see your point Kingbee.  Seems the Reagan admin had little respect for the laws either... I doubt the Mullahs in Tehran give a hoot about treaties with "infidels" either.  But what do you do?

Do what Reagan recommended, "Trust but verify"  A big dose of preparedness goes a long way too. 

By violating the law are you speaking of the “Fast and Furious” gun running scandal that has enveloped the President’s Attorney General, Eric Holder? 
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