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Author Topic: Foundationless frame construction 11 frame langstroth  (Read 1859 times)
ScooterTrash
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« on: December 21, 2011, 04:58:29 PM »

Class begins Jan, 5 evenings a a couple weekend field trips for the begginer. Was great opportunity to get back in my wood shop and knock out 8 Broad Chambers & 12 Supers (rabbet joint will have to do), 4 pitched roofs, inner cover/ventilator/feeders (mason jars), IPMs & stands. And now for  foundationless frames which I do plan to build as well, the ala natural recommendation being 1-1/4' width on end pieces vs 1-3/8" this would result in allowing an 11th frame in a langstroth. Are there any other dimension changes for the frame? Thanks
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BlueBee
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« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2011, 07:42:18 PM »

Just make sure the width of your top bars and bottom bars still obey bee space so the bees can squeeze between them when going up a box or down a box.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2011, 08:15:59 PM »

7/8" would be the preferred width of the top bar, but since one bys are 3/4" I would make them 3/4".  basically if you take some plans for frames (you can find them online) reduce the width of everything (except maybe the bottom bar) by 1/8".  I often just plane down the end bars, but since you making them from scratch you may as  well do it all...
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
ScooterTrash
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« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2011, 07:06:16 AM »

Appreciate the responses, I'll be ripping up scrap 2 x 4s so 7/8 top bar it will be. Regarding the top bar standard, kinda, of 3/4' thickness the plan is same thickness and use router mounted w/45degree 1-11/16 Chamfer Bit in table saw wing to cut the comb guide. Stick with the 3/4" thick top bar? Thanks
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marktrl
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« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2011, 11:36:09 AM »

I also use 2x4's to make my top bars. First I cut them to 19" length, then rip them to 3/4", so you have 4 rips that are 1 1/2" x 3/4". Then I rip the 1 1/2" to 1" leaving a 3/8" cut off that I use for the bottom bar. You could rip to 7/8" and have a thicker bottom bar. I also do foundation less so I cut them to a 45 degree wedge.
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BlueBee
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« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2011, 02:12:35 PM »

I’ve never tried to make frames from 2x4s.  Sounds like an interesting idea.  I think the wider the top bar (as in 7/8”) the more structurally sound your narrow frames will be.  I use realatively clear 1x stock when I make frames.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2011, 07:18:44 PM »

The advantage to thick top bars is preventing burr between the boxes.  The advantage to thin top bars is much more comb in the box.

“…that very practical Canadian bee-keeper, J.B. Hall, showed me his thick top-bars, and told me that they prevented the building up of so much burr-comb between the top-bars and the sections…and I am very glad that at the present day it can be dispensed with by having top-bars 1-1/8 inch wide and 7/8 inch thick, with a space of 1/4 inch between top-bar and section.  Not that there is an entire absence of burr-combs, but near enough to it so that one can get along much more comfortably than with the slat honey-board.  At any rate there is no longer the killing of bees that there was every day the dauby honey-board was replaced.”--C.C. Miller, Fifty Years Among the Bees.

“Q. Do you believe that a half-inch thick brood-frame top-bar will tend to prevent the bees building burr-comb on such frames, as well as the three-quarter inch top-bar? Which kind do you use?
A. I do not believe that the one-half inch will prevent burr-combs quite as well as the three-quarter. Mine are seven-eighths.”--C.C. Miller, A Thousand Answers to Beekeeping Questions
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
ScooterTrash
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« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2011, 07:23:09 PM »

the comb guide plan assuming a 7/8” thickness use w/45degree Chamfer Bit with top of cut beginning at where the lower portion of the dado on the end piece & intersection of the top-bar; taking it to a sharp point triangle pointing down or are we looking for a flat instead of a point say 1/8” wide at apex? Thks


Broad Chamber/Supers etc received 1st coat of ½ turpentine ½ linseed oil & a little penetrol today, still shorts and ho chi minh sandal weather here. Started roof fabrication today, playing with flashing and sheet metal, no metal brake or shear but have some angle iron laying around and hand seamer. 
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2011, 06:26:51 AM »

The point of mine is typically 1/8" wide at the apex.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
ScooterTrash
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« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2012, 01:35:39 PM »

Got 1100 ends cut 1-1/4 wide now with dados cut in each end 13/32 deep x 5/8 wide to support the top/bottom bars. Regarding the end pieces toward the bottom bar the normal width is 1-1/8 this should be trimed 1/16 off each side of a given end piece? Appreciated
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