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BlueBee
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« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2012, 08:18:10 AM »

Mitt’s daddy was a wealthy CEO who ran American Motors Corporation and was the Governor of Michigan!  Mitt didn’t start out poor.  Mitt grew up in privilege in Bloomfield Hills, Michigan.  Bloomfield Hills is like the Rodeo Drive of Michigan.  That’s where the very rich people live in Michigan. 

Did he start with a silver spoon in his mouth?  No, more like gold spoon.   However it sounds like he earned (if you want to use that term) his own fortune by starting Bain Capital from scratch.  He was good enough to get others to put in the startup money and then grew it from $37 million to $4 billion.  You do have to know a thing or two about capitalism to achieve that without getting eaten alive by Wall Street.  Lots of other people have tried and failed.  (Like Madoff, LTCM, etc)
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kathyp
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« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2012, 11:10:38 AM »

i'm not sure his wealth or what he was born into has much to do with anything.  it is an unfortunate fact of politics that it takes money to get elected.  if you don't have your own, you'd better have some very wealthy backers.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
T Beek
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« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2012, 10:10:08 AM »

In answer to the original question;

IMO, backing John Conyers Bill (currently w/ over 70 supporters) The U.S National Health Insurance Act (HR 676) Medicare for all, Single-payer system would solve the problem by removing health care profits from 'Insurance' providers whose 'only' function is making money for themselves.  These entities serve no other purpose other than getting in the way of health care, while pocketing massive profits for doing so. 

Mark my words here, because this option of providing universal health care is all to inevitable.  Enough people just haven't come to their senses yet.  But when the system is obviously beyond repair, we need a new system, much like the 'Crony Capitalist Government' we now accept, it too will be replaced. 

We can;t fix it, the attempts are/will be futile because the game is fixed against us.  We must instead replace this corupt system and place the criminals where they belong, or minimally expose the crime that's been committed.

That too is inevitable I'm afaraid, unless the powers that be come to their senses before its too late (for them).  The people can/will only wait so long.

These former deniers of health care could then get jobs actually working in the health care field 'providing' the care they once worked so hard to deny for their company's profits.  I mean,  they already know the lingo grin.  Should be a pretty easy step to take and we all know we are going to need more health care providers in the future, not less.

Support HR-676.  Call your reps today.

There are many examples of Countries w/ lesser means providing exceptional quality health accessible to all of their citizens.  Perhaps one of the best is Singapore, who copied our very own system, but simply made it available to everyone. 

If you work for 'someone' in America your share going to Medicare is currently 1.45%, doubled if self-employed.  How many of you would gladly pay 3% or even 5% for 'access' to quality care w/out all the deniers?

Americans regularly travel to Singapore (and other Countries w/ more rational health care policies) for procedures deemed  'too expensive' here.  That 'should' be unacceptable yet accept we do.  Also due to the 'for profit' system we have we have the lowest return for the amount spent and still rank on the 'bottom' when compared to other 'civilised' countries.

Edward from Sweden gave his own example above and was pretty much ignored for the effort, instead of inspiring some Q & A from the posters here.  Too bad  Sad   I for one, would like to know more how his system works.

thomas
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kathyp
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« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2012, 10:40:18 AM »

Quote
Support HR-676.  Call your reps today

no thanks.  i have seen how single payer works and i sure don't want it.

as to edwards comment, he's wrong about free.  it's not free.  he's right about the same care....or not.  if you wish to have a system that in includes "or not", for all, then go somewhere that has that system.

the problem with americans who support this stuff is that they keep looking at little countries like Sweden, Switzerland, and Canada, and trying to say that what works for a few million can be transfered to 300 million.  and consider that you are turning over your medical care supervision to THE GOVERNMENT which, no matter which sider we are on politically, we seem to agree is messed up. 

i will agree that we can fix it.   the problem with people like you, TBeek, is that you want the government to fix it so that it's no effort to you.  i want the market to fix it which means some work to change things. 
i bet you also demanded insurance coverage when you were a union member?  we CHOOSE to demand insurance because we feel someone else is paying for our care that way.


Quote
Americans regularly travel to Singapore (and other Countries w/ more rational health care policies) for procedures deemed  'too expensive' here.  That 'should' be unacceptable yet accept we do.  Also due to the 'for profit' system we have we have the lowest return for the amount spent and still rank on the 'bottom' when compared to other 'civilised' countries.

thank you for making my earlier point about market based medicine cost.  the reason those procedures can be done for less is that you are not getting care through a middle man, you are paying cash.   government health care is still getting care through a middle man.  in this case the government.  the government may not take a traditional profit, but plenty will profit.  you will create another overpaid, bloated bureaucracy that will waste and lose money on an epic scale.     

again, you have been given a number of things that could be done to immediately lower cost...which seems to be everyones main concern. you don't seem to be interested in market solutions which is not a surprise to me, but if you are interested in cost, how in the heck do you think cost comes down under government care?  well, there is  a way.  they ration care.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
T Beek
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« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2012, 01:00:37 PM »

So called Market 'solutions' is what brought us to this place kathyp. And FYI, we already ration care in America. 

And although its been suggested by you repeatedly here and on diferent threads "I DO NOT EXPECT OUR GOVERNMENT TO DO ANYTHING FOR ME", I'm of the belief that 'we' are the government, so please go back and 'read' what I've posted instead of giving your pat answers to your pat assumptions.  Jeeze Louise grin

I've been hearing people (mostly politicians) proclaim the benefits of VA health Care and its own successful solutions to high medical costs for years.  I see no reason why their methods couldn't be adopted in mass, other than the lost profits (entitlements?) of a few profiteers/conmen who provide nothing, least of all actual health care.  

So called Obama-care was/is nothing more than a gift to these 'non' providers, yet is blasted as some kind of 'socialist' action by the same lobby that wrote the law rolleyes.  That is a joke (on all of us) when all things are considered.  It Will not/cannot lower health care costs and never will, because the majority of the costs are profit driven as opposed to health care driven.  VA health care is considerably more socialist than the corrupt system we have.

People don't just go to other countries because they can pay cash kathyp.  They go because their 'insurance company' very likely denied all or part of a claim and in order to have the particular procedure done in the States requires a mortgage AND all first born children, just as a down payment Wink.  OK, I'm making that last part up, but unless your living in a cave you must know what I mean.

For those looking for some real enlightenment, seek out Bill Moyers latest PBS interview w/ David Stockman (ST. Ron's OMB Manager).  Amazing perspective to say the least (and well hidden from most of America for a reason)  A perspective that "IMO" would be a welcome addition to this conversation.  

Besides making some sense out of this (mostly manufactured) complex situation, Stockman offers some clear headed, rational (and very doable) solutions to our current predicament.  Makes me wonder why the Republicans don't try to run him for something.  

Oh wait, that would make too much sense and interfere with (unearned, mostly conned) profits grin  He also represents "true" conservatism, not this current day criminal version we've been told is conservatism.

Educating ourselves and acting on what is learned will be our only salvation in the end.  If you're just sitting around pointing fingers, helping with the divisiveness (doing their bidding for them as a tool or fool) and/or waiting for the Obamas or the Romney's to 'change' anything for the better (unless its better for them) you're living Disneyland IMO grin and will be waiting a very long time.  

Make no mistake;  Presidents, all Presidents, conserve the status quo (or better known as, the lives of the fabulously wealthy).  That is their primary function, regardless of party, to protect the wealthy at all costs.  Thank goodness more and more are recognizing this important fact and having some light bulb moments.  Would that be evolution?

I've also experienced health care in other countries, some w/ excellent care and access, some w/ none to little (thank goodness I had that government job, heh?).  My experiences were not quite like the descriptions offered by kathyp, but she offered no actual locations so am not certain what it all meant really, accept to refute the fact that better and cheaper systems 'really' do exist, despite her assertion.  

In the States I've mostly relied on VA since retiring and to be honest, I'd rather have the care available in Singapore.

Oh and BTW, in no way are high medical costs associated with the number of people in a Country (that's a myth or lie perpetuated by the industry, you choose) the argument simply makes no sense and the VA is a 'perfect' example.  

With "more" people included we should be able to strike a 'better' deal for 'all' not just the most profitable deal for the 'non-providing' insurer.

thomas
« Last Edit: January 23, 2012, 02:05:49 PM by T Beek » Logged

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kathyp
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« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2012, 02:00:30 PM »

Quote
So called Market 'solutions' is what brought us to this place kathyp.

not so.  there are no market forces in medical costs.

Quote
I've been hearing people (mostly politicians) proclaim the benefits of VA health Care and its own successful solutions to high medical costs for years.  I see no reason why their methods couldn't be adopted in mass, other than the lost profits (entitlements?) of a few profiteers/conmen who provide nothing, least of all actual health care.


again, very small, and very expensive system.  it is not really cost effective.  it's kept in place for political considerations.  it would be cheaper to to voucher vets who need care and don't have insurance, but that's not a politically viable change.

Quote
People don't just go to other countries because they can pay cash kathyp.  They go because their 'insurance company' very likely denied all or part of a claim and in order to have the particular procedure done in the States requires a mortgage AND all first born children, just as a down payment .  OK, I'm making that last part up, but unless your living in a cave you must know what I mean.

just as people from single payer countries come here for care that is denied under their system. 

Quote
I've also experienced health care in other countries, some w/ excellent care and access, some w/ none to little (thank goodness I had that government job, heh?).  My experiences were not quite like the descriptions offered by kathyp, but she offered no actual locations so am not certain what it all meant really, accept to refute the fact that better and cheaper systems 'really' do exist, despite her assertion. 


read more carefully.  i told you that most of my detailed info comes from the NHS in england and some from working border states and seeing patients from canada.

Quote
In the States I've mostly relied on VA since retiring and to be honest, I'd rather have the care available in Singapore.

and yet, this is the kind of system you want here.

Quote
Oh and BTW, in no way are high medical costs associated with the number of people in a Country (that's a myth or lie perpetuated by the industry, you choose) the argument simply makes no sense and the VA is a 'perfect' example. 

With "more" people included we should be able to strike a 'better' deal for 'all' not just the most profitable deal for the 'non-providing' insurer.

it's less the number and more the demographics.  we have large numbers of immigrants, many of whom come here with poor care from their own countries.  we have large numbers of people who pay not taxes yet use the majority of the care. 

ok, confused now.  do you love the VA or not?  or is "free" the thing that attracts you.

i'm really curious as to how this spreading the cost thing is going to work.  only a hair more than 1/2 the population pays federal tax now.  the population is aging so that's not going to get better.  there is no way that you can get enough out of the so called rich, to come close to covering cost.  looks to me like the middle class will absorb most of the cost of your plan.  you think that's helpful to the future economy of the country?

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
T Beek
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« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2012, 02:53:55 PM »

More 'assumptions' and a dangerous belief in the myth/lie of American Health Care costs kathyp.  That's a shame.  Health care costs (if we can really even call 'profits' cost) are 'primarily' driven by the profit driven markets you seem to think are going to save us.  You really should change the channel once in a while rolleyes.

I know how much some love to blame 'immigrants' or the poor for all of our problems, but its only because they are the easiest target and our politicians are famous for this type of manipulation when 'struggling' for votes.  Historically this is nothing new, immigrants and those less fortunate have always gotten a bad rap from the 'alleged' natives rolleyes, especially in America.

My VA Health Care was/is hardly free kathyP, another assumption.  Everyone who honorably served 'earned' that care, every bit as much as the tycoons of Wall Street 'earned' their bonuses rolleyes  And NO, I don't want VA for everyone, never said that, it sucks.  I want MEDICARE for everyone, paid for w/ a more 'realistic' tax that will actually pay for it.  

BUT...we must first eliminate the middle/con men.  Nothing can/will be accomplished until we do that.

Although I do agree, Vets should be able to see any doctor they choose and not be forced to drive 100s of miles for VA care, which would certainly cut down on 'some' costs.  For some conditions they actually do contract w/ outside entities on a fee basis, but its rare.

People coming to America for medical care are primarily from two groups kathyp.  

The wealthy seeking the best, most expensive Doctors and those who simply couldn't wait for some kind of 'elective' procedure.  To suggest otherwise is ridicules and to put it simply, not true.  There are NOT people dying, waiting for needed heart surgery in Canada, another lie from the Industry.

You know, you're not the only one who knows Canadians (or Europeans) kathyp.  As a Sault St. Marie Tribal Member (OJIBWA) and former world traveler, I know lots of chinooks, and am also privileged to have dual citizenship with America and Canada so I know a little bit about some of these things.  

I could talk Health Care and the real causes of its costs and inequities for Days..............Last year I was kicked off a AARP Health care Committee for accusing them of compliance and profiteering off their own medical Insurance peddling to people who can least afford it,  all disguised as 'helping' people with their medical expenses.  

When the truth is/was, it was the cost of the (mostly unneeded) insurance causing the most harm.  AARP still sells Insurance Cry

P.S.  Even immigrants and the poor pay social security and MEDICARE taxes kathyp.  No way to get out of that unless your rich enough as only the wealthy get an exemption for these deductions, making it one of the most blatant examples of how they fail to pay their fair share in social security taxes.  I believe the cap for 2012 is $120,000, where contributions to social security end for the few who make that kind of money.  A tax benefit 'Just' for the 'already' well off.

thomas
« Last Edit: January 23, 2012, 03:40:46 PM by T Beek » Logged

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kathyp
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« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2012, 04:00:55 PM »

well, ok.  you know it all and you have a superb grasp of what the free market is and how it works.  you win.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2012, 05:52:16 PM »

Hey, that's my line grin

Sounds like a cop out, rather than an engaged discussion, something you once accused me of Wink some time ago.  Not like you to just give up either.  We both call em as we see em.  Certainly nothing wrong w/ that....but....Is this 'an acceptance' of some of my thoughts or just telling me you've had enough of my attempts to persuade a different viewpoint.............until next time? 

Persuasion was never part of the plan, just loving the dialogue as a retired person is all, and I simply can't resist investigating any assertions made by most anyone , ; likely a glaring personality flaw in some circles but its served me well so far   cool

BTW; IMO, there's no such thing as a 'free market' in America as 'most' of us are firmly excluded from any actual participation or access to any such animal.  The closest 'we' (average folks) have is the barter system or perhaps some other forms of illicit transactions, but even those examples aren't always so free (they're starting to regulate yard and garage Sales around here rolleyes).  Our choices as consumers become more limited all the time making our purchases as much 'chosen for us' as not IMO, just mine now, only mine.

All other forms are an illusion designed to make us think we have some power, whether economically or socially, where we really have none at all, unless we organise (and stop with all the 'manufactured' divisiveness that only serves the masters) that is Smiley

thomas
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BlueBee
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« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2012, 06:40:58 PM »

 applause applause applause  T Beek has clearly done his research and understands the issues.
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« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2012, 06:58:23 PM »

Hey, that's my line grin

Sounds like a cop out, rather than an engaged discussion, something you once accused me of Wink some time ago.  Not like you to just give up either.  We both call em as we see em.  Certainly nothing wrong w/ that....but....Is this 'an acceptance' of some of my thoughts or just telling me you've had enough of my attempts to persuade a different viewpoint.............until next time? 

Persuasion was never part of the plan, just loving the dialogue as a retired person is all, and I simply can't resist investigating any assertions made by most anyone , ; likely a glaring personality flaw in some circles but its served me well so far   cool

BTW; IMO, there's no such thing as a 'free market' in America as 'most' of us are firmly excluded from any actual participation or access to any such animal.  The closest 'we' (average folks) have is the barter system or perhaps some other forms of illicit transactions, but even those examples aren't always so free (they're starting to regulate yard and garage Sales around here rolleyes).  Our choices as consumers become more limited all the time making our purchases as much 'chosen for us' as not IMO, just mine now, only mine.

All other forms are an illusion designed to make us think we have some power, whether economically or socially, where we really have none at all, unless we organise (and stop with all the 'manufactured' divisiveness that only serves the masters) that is Smiley

thomas
And that is what communism is and what they [the communist] have been trying to acommplish for several decades and that is what Obama is pushing for as we discuss such things. And that is why we the people have to get him out of power. butt kick
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T Beek
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« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2012, 08:55:22 AM »

sterling; it must so easy to repeat such nonsense that reflects no truth at all in the 'real' world.  Living in the bubble and all that, you know? 

You really might want try a little to expand your knowledge input and not rely so much on the fringes for life's explanations.  Sorry Sad.

Which 'leaders' (or movement/ideology) do you think you are following or assisting with that assertion?  Where exactly did you get such an idea? 

Wait, wait, let me guess rolleyes

Obama is about as far from communism as Bush was and as for examples, has pretty much stuck w/ some of Bush's most restrictive policies enacted upon the majority, and has most assuredly 'protected' the same criminal class. 

Pay attention man!

Obama is........oh....., just go read a book or something, will you please grin

thomas
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« Reply #32 on: January 25, 2012, 01:13:28 PM »

TBEEK YOU ARE THE ONE WHO NEEDS TO PAY ATTENTION YOU AIN'T AS SMART AS YOU THINK YOU ARE!
What do you think Mr. Obama meant when he said he is going to FOUDAMENTALLY TRANSFORM THIS COUNTRY?
Bush didn't pass a bill that would completely control all individuals in the country health care.
Bush didn't take over the complete control over educational loans.
Bush didn't say "if congress want do what I want them to do I will do it without them."
Nor did Bush say he was going to spread the wealth. Which is an important theme of the communist party.

Since you have so much free time, look into the backgrounds of some of Obama's people. Rahm Emanuel, David Axlerod, Andy Stern, Valarie Jarret,Anita Dunn, Van Jones. Check their communist connections.
You might look into Obama's connections also. His father was a communist as was his mothers parents as was his mentor in Hawaii Frank Marshall Davis, a known communist. Davis was also Axlerod's mentor.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2012, 06:19:33 PM by sterling » Logged
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« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2012, 06:37:54 PM »

 beat a dead horse
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« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2012, 09:29:44 PM »

beat a dead horse
Sorry if I am rehashing a subject that has already been settled. I am just trying to keep you from makeing the same mistake in Nov. Jerry
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« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2012, 10:01:34 PM »

4 more years, 4 more years  grin
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« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2012, 10:10:16 PM »

4 more years and what will our debt be?  oh yeah, we need 4 more years of this!
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2012, 10:34:30 PM »

4 more years and we won't have any debt. There'll be new money with new denominations, to go with the national dress uniforms and national ID cards. Hitler will be so proud, he'll be saluting from the grave.
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« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2012, 08:55:30 AM »

4 more years and we won't have any debt. There'll be new money with new denominations, to go with the national dress uniforms and national ID cards. Hitler will be so proud, he'll be saluting from the grave.

iddee; That's exactly what I'd expect to hear from the guy who called the President a 'monkey' on reply #16, this thread rolleyes.

Hitler thought his brand of 'corporatism' (along w/ separatism, violent if necessary) was the answer to all life's problems, so if one 'really' believes in such things, he's already proud of America. 

Personally IMO;  When you're dead, your just dead.  Hitler is only kept alive by his fans.

thomas
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« Reply #39 on: January 26, 2012, 08:57:49 AM »

Save your confederate money Boys,(you know the rest)..dl
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