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BlueBee
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« on: January 18, 2012, 12:45:48 AM »

No, this thread isn’t about OWS.  I think we’ve already proved OWS was right grin  Romney confirmed today he’s also barely paying taxes; at a 15% rate.  

This thread is about who’s eating up the health care budget in America.  Turns out that 1% of patients accounted for a whopping 21% of US healthcare spending!  The top 5% accounted for 50% of all health care spending!  Of course most of these 5%ers are the elderly and middle aged couch potatoes.  http://finance.yahoo.com/news/5-americans-made-50-u-195410001.html

How do y'all think there is any chance of paying for these 5% ers in the future?  The baby boomers are hitting the hospitals now and there isn’t enough generation XYZ to subsidize all the bills.  How do you solve this cost problem?

Kingbee made a good point that what hospitals bill is not what they really collect, however regardless of their billing shenanigans, the fact of the matter is US health care spending is now over 15% of GDP and rising.  Is that sustainable?  At what % of GDP does it bankrupt the country?
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SEEYA
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« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2012, 10:07:35 AM »

Well we could do away with social security and make everyone buy their own health insurance, that should get rid of a lot of the elderly, obese and the chronically ill. Doctors and hospitals can't work for free so most of them would 'go out of business'. In a couple of generation though, we would be a thriving robust country.

>>At what % of GDP does it bankrupt the country
1) How is Canada and Europe handling their health care?
2) As our Gross Domestic Product keeps dwindling (read IMPORTS - CHINA) and WE continue shifting to a service based economy?
   
I got an Idea: we could trade Hawaii and Taiwan to the Chinese for a couple trillion. That should help out in the short term. 
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kathyp
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« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2012, 11:30:04 AM »

again...Romney is making his money off investments, not wages.  i know you are having trouble with that, but there is a reason investment income is taxed at a lower level.

we already gave you ideas to bring down the cost of health care, but you apparently don't like them.  what are your ideas?

do you think a state (federal) run medical system would be efficient and cost less?  on what current government program would you base such hopes?

Quote
1) How is Canada and Europe handling their health care?

depends on the country.  Germany is doing ok with theirs at the moment.  they have a better economy than most of Europe.  they have a different work ethic that most of the other Europeans also....however, they are strained by the inclusion of the east Germans who were basically all state welfare recipients.  that has improved somewhat, but it would not take much to push Germany over if the other European countries don't get it together.

look at the other countries.  the big thing that is breaking them is the social welfare state.  then once the people have been given stuff, there is no way to cut back without them rioting in the streets.
 i know more about the NHS in England because my sister has lived there for years.  if is horribly expensive and they are falling behind in both equipment and procedures.  my sisters MIL is diabetic.  the care and instruction she gets is what we would have given 30 years ago.  medications for various diseases are not available there and they are meds that we consider standard of care here.  care is rationed.  if you are obese, you may not be considered for joint replacement, etc.  you can get private insurance and it will get you to the head of the line and get you better meds, but it is expensive and you can't buy it to cover pre-existing conditions.

Canada is a little different also.  they have a comparatively small population.  they make a good bit of money exporting to us their oil and timber because we won't use our own. for basic care, their system seems to work fairly well, but it is very expensive.   for things other than basics, they fill our border state hospitals for care....if they can afford it.



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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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sterling
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« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2012, 12:12:24 PM »

>No, this thread isn’t about OWS.  I think we’ve already proved OWS was right   Romney confirmed today he’s also barely paying taxes; at a 15% rate. 

Is having a President being smart enough to become wealthy a problem with you?
If the answer is yes, do you also think that people in the Senate and House should not be wealthy?
Do you also think it's wrong for non elected people to live high on taxpayer money.
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kathyp
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« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2012, 01:25:05 PM »

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Is having a President being smart enough to become wealthy a problem with you?


if that were the case, Obama would be a problem also. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2012, 07:54:02 PM »

barely paying taxes; at a 15% rate?    I think he is paying 100% of his taxes at the 15% rate which is what the government set.     Same as you, me, or him if we were paying taxes on investments. 
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BlueBee
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« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2012, 08:03:54 PM »

Hmmmm, what about the out of control costs for medical bills?  If we cut Romney’s tax bill from 15% to 0% would that help or hurt?

No Sterling, I don’t have a problem with Romney being rich.  Hopefully he will make our entire nation richer too if he gets elected.  Of all the Republican candidates, he’s the only one I’ve seen that has any sense at all.  Seems neutron Newt might have problem with him being rich though?
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AllenF
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« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2012, 08:19:54 PM »

I Newt has enough money hid away also.    He has written enough books, made enough speeches and sat on enough boards to keep him happy.
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SEEYA
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« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2012, 08:30:34 PM »

>>Is having a President being smart enough to become wealthy a problem with you? (Romney)

His Daddy was a Millionaire, he got his money on a silver spoon. 
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edward
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« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2012, 08:53:12 PM »

1) How is Canada and Europe handling their health care?

Its free and everybody gets the same care beat a dead horse or not beat a dead horse    rich or poor

edward in sweden
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AllenF
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« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2012, 09:40:24 PM »

One reason investments are taxes at a lower rate than income is that the majority of the people that live off their investments are retired and not working anymore.   Another reason is that that money had already been taxes once before the investor gets anything.    Remember corporate taxes.   Then what ever is left over is paid out to the investors/ owners.
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BlueBee
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« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2012, 09:51:48 PM »

One reason investments are taxes at a lower rate than income is
And the other reason is the top 1% own the politicians who set the rates Wink
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kathyp
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« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2012, 12:22:16 AM »

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His Daddy was a Millionaire, he got his money on a silver spoon. 


i heard (have not verified) that he gave his inheritance away.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2012, 12:27:54 AM »

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And the other reason is the top 1% own the politicians who set the rates

my MIL gets investment dividends.  that's a large part of her income.  if you have retirement investments, it will be yours also.  then you'll screem that you don't think it's fair to be taxed so much in your old age....on money you invested that was already taxed.

another reason investment return is taxed lower is that it encourages investment.  of course, if you are not investing for your future and you expect the rest of us to look after you, i can see how it might make you mad that they are not taking more. 

bluebee, you entire argument stems from the premise that it is the governments to take.  it is not. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
SEEYA
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« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2012, 07:14:41 AM »

>>bluebee, you entire argument stems from the premise that it is the governments to take.  it is not.

It is called 'Eminent Domain' ,and it means if the government wants it...guess what! evil
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BlueBee
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« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2012, 07:29:21 AM »

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bluebee, your entire argument stems from the premise that it is the governments to take.

No……that is not my premise!

My premise is we should be paying for whatever we’re buying.  Unfortunately the Republicans have the welfare mindset that they can get whatever they want without paying for it.  They spend and spend while cutting taxes. 

Instead of being responsible, the Republicans just want to pass the bill onto the kids, grandkids, great grandkids, and beyond.  As you pointed out before we’re STILL paying for Reagan’s spending spree, and that was 30 years ago!  We’ll probably still be paying principle and interest on all of Dubya’s spending well into 2100.  Going to war and cutting taxes to pay for it?  Hmmmm, how fiscally sound is that?   

Since the politicians don’t have the spine to be responsible, I think there should be a law that forces them to balance the budget and pay for what they spend.  That might also keep them from spending so much in the first place as well.
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iddee
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« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2012, 09:04:30 AM »

""As you pointed out before we’re STILL paying for Reagan’s spending spree, and that was 30 years ago!  We’ll probably still be paying principle and interest on all of Dubya’s spending well into 2100""

Seeing as how the monkey has spent more in 3 years than ALL the Republican presidents combined, that is a pretty weak argument you have there.
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« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2012, 09:28:58 AM »

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No……that is not my premise!

My premise is we should be paying for whatever we’re buying.  Unfortunately the Republicans have the welfare mindset that they can get whatever they want without paying for it.  They spend and spend while cutting taxes. 

Instead of being responsible, the Republicans just want to pass the bill onto the kids, grandkids, great grandkids, and beyond.  As you pointed out before we’re STILL paying for Reagan’s spending spree, and that was 30 years ago!  We’ll probably still be paying principle and interest on all of Dubya’s spending well into 2100.  Going to war and cutting taxes to pay for it?  Hmmmm, how fiscally sound is that?

you seem to think it's responsible to tax more. did you ever consider that it would be responsible to spend less?

i will agree with you that there are some republicans who don't get it.  we are trying to replace those, as we try to replace this president...who has spent more and created more debt than any before him. 

if you look at revenue charts, cutting taxes under bush did not decrease revenue. historically, it does not.  this is something Kennedy made note of as he cut taxes.  cutting taxes stimulates growth and increases revenue.  that's why Obama didn't do away with the Bush tax cuts.  that said, you can stimulate all you want, but if you are outspending revenue...as most admins do, you create debt.  FDR had one of the greatest spending sprees ever seen....up to this president.  his spending to GDP ratio was the highest....until now.

so the lesson is not that we need to tax more.  we need to spend less.  until we get people in Washington who understand that, we will continue to be in debt.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
sterling
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« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2012, 04:59:39 PM »

The govt intake from revenue was the highest ever under Bush.
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sterling
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« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2012, 05:08:46 PM »

>>Is having a President being smart enough to become wealthy a problem with you? (Romney)

His Daddy was a Millionaire, he got his money on a silver spoon. 
I think you are wrong in that statement. Romney's daddy was an immigrant. Romney made his own according to Romney in a statement this morning.   
You are talking about the JFK.
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BlueBee
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« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2012, 08:18:10 AM »

Mitt’s daddy was a wealthy CEO who ran American Motors Corporation and was the Governor of Michigan!  Mitt didn’t start out poor.  Mitt grew up in privilege in Bloomfield Hills, Michigan.  Bloomfield Hills is like the Rodeo Drive of Michigan.  That’s where the very rich people live in Michigan. 

Did he start with a silver spoon in his mouth?  No, more like gold spoon.   However it sounds like he earned (if you want to use that term) his own fortune by starting Bain Capital from scratch.  He was good enough to get others to put in the startup money and then grew it from $37 million to $4 billion.  You do have to know a thing or two about capitalism to achieve that without getting eaten alive by Wall Street.  Lots of other people have tried and failed.  (Like Madoff, LTCM, etc)
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kathyp
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« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2012, 11:10:38 AM »

i'm not sure his wealth or what he was born into has much to do with anything.  it is an unfortunate fact of politics that it takes money to get elected.  if you don't have your own, you'd better have some very wealthy backers.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2012, 10:10:08 AM »

In answer to the original question;

IMO, backing John Conyers Bill (currently w/ over 70 supporters) The U.S National Health Insurance Act (HR 676) Medicare for all, Single-payer system would solve the problem by removing health care profits from 'Insurance' providers whose 'only' function is making money for themselves.  These entities serve no other purpose other than getting in the way of health care, while pocketing massive profits for doing so. 

Mark my words here, because this option of providing universal health care is all to inevitable.  Enough people just haven't come to their senses yet.  But when the system is obviously beyond repair, we need a new system, much like the 'Crony Capitalist Government' we now accept, it too will be replaced. 

We can;t fix it, the attempts are/will be futile because the game is fixed against us.  We must instead replace this corupt system and place the criminals where they belong, or minimally expose the crime that's been committed.

That too is inevitable I'm afaraid, unless the powers that be come to their senses before its too late (for them).  The people can/will only wait so long.

These former deniers of health care could then get jobs actually working in the health care field 'providing' the care they once worked so hard to deny for their company's profits.  I mean,  they already know the lingo grin.  Should be a pretty easy step to take and we all know we are going to need more health care providers in the future, not less.

Support HR-676.  Call your reps today.

There are many examples of Countries w/ lesser means providing exceptional quality health accessible to all of their citizens.  Perhaps one of the best is Singapore, who copied our very own system, but simply made it available to everyone. 

If you work for 'someone' in America your share going to Medicare is currently 1.45%, doubled if self-employed.  How many of you would gladly pay 3% or even 5% for 'access' to quality care w/out all the deniers?

Americans regularly travel to Singapore (and other Countries w/ more rational health care policies) for procedures deemed  'too expensive' here.  That 'should' be unacceptable yet accept we do.  Also due to the 'for profit' system we have we have the lowest return for the amount spent and still rank on the 'bottom' when compared to other 'civilised' countries.

Edward from Sweden gave his own example above and was pretty much ignored for the effort, instead of inspiring some Q & A from the posters here.  Too bad  Sad   I for one, would like to know more how his system works.

thomas
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« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2012, 10:40:18 AM »

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Support HR-676.  Call your reps today

no thanks.  i have seen how single payer works and i sure don't want it.

as to edwards comment, he's wrong about free.  it's not free.  he's right about the same care....or not.  if you wish to have a system that in includes "or not", for all, then go somewhere that has that system.

the problem with americans who support this stuff is that they keep looking at little countries like Sweden, Switzerland, and Canada, and trying to say that what works for a few million can be transfered to 300 million.  and consider that you are turning over your medical care supervision to THE GOVERNMENT which, no matter which sider we are on politically, we seem to agree is messed up. 

i will agree that we can fix it.   the problem with people like you, TBeek, is that you want the government to fix it so that it's no effort to you.  i want the market to fix it which means some work to change things. 
i bet you also demanded insurance coverage when you were a union member?  we CHOOSE to demand insurance because we feel someone else is paying for our care that way.


Quote
Americans regularly travel to Singapore (and other Countries w/ more rational health care policies) for procedures deemed  'too expensive' here.  That 'should' be unacceptable yet accept we do.  Also due to the 'for profit' system we have we have the lowest return for the amount spent and still rank on the 'bottom' when compared to other 'civilised' countries.

thank you for making my earlier point about market based medicine cost.  the reason those procedures can be done for less is that you are not getting care through a middle man, you are paying cash.   government health care is still getting care through a middle man.  in this case the government.  the government may not take a traditional profit, but plenty will profit.  you will create another overpaid, bloated bureaucracy that will waste and lose money on an epic scale.     

again, you have been given a number of things that could be done to immediately lower cost...which seems to be everyones main concern. you don't seem to be interested in market solutions which is not a surprise to me, but if you are interested in cost, how in the heck do you think cost comes down under government care?  well, there is  a way.  they ration care.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2012, 01:00:37 PM »

So called Market 'solutions' is what brought us to this place kathyp. And FYI, we already ration care in America. 

And although its been suggested by you repeatedly here and on diferent threads "I DO NOT EXPECT OUR GOVERNMENT TO DO ANYTHING FOR ME", I'm of the belief that 'we' are the government, so please go back and 'read' what I've posted instead of giving your pat answers to your pat assumptions.  Jeeze Louise grin

I've been hearing people (mostly politicians) proclaim the benefits of VA health Care and its own successful solutions to high medical costs for years.  I see no reason why their methods couldn't be adopted in mass, other than the lost profits (entitlements?) of a few profiteers/conmen who provide nothing, least of all actual health care.  

So called Obama-care was/is nothing more than a gift to these 'non' providers, yet is blasted as some kind of 'socialist' action by the same lobby that wrote the law rolleyes.  That is a joke (on all of us) when all things are considered.  It Will not/cannot lower health care costs and never will, because the majority of the costs are profit driven as opposed to health care driven.  VA health care is considerably more socialist than the corrupt system we have.

People don't just go to other countries because they can pay cash kathyp.  They go because their 'insurance company' very likely denied all or part of a claim and in order to have the particular procedure done in the States requires a mortgage AND all first born children, just as a down payment Wink.  OK, I'm making that last part up, but unless your living in a cave you must know what I mean.

For those looking for some real enlightenment, seek out Bill Moyers latest PBS interview w/ David Stockman (ST. Ron's OMB Manager).  Amazing perspective to say the least (and well hidden from most of America for a reason)  A perspective that "IMO" would be a welcome addition to this conversation.  

Besides making some sense out of this (mostly manufactured) complex situation, Stockman offers some clear headed, rational (and very doable) solutions to our current predicament.  Makes me wonder why the Republicans don't try to run him for something.  

Oh wait, that would make too much sense and interfere with (unearned, mostly conned) profits grin  He also represents "true" conservatism, not this current day criminal version we've been told is conservatism.

Educating ourselves and acting on what is learned will be our only salvation in the end.  If you're just sitting around pointing fingers, helping with the divisiveness (doing their bidding for them as a tool or fool) and/or waiting for the Obamas or the Romney's to 'change' anything for the better (unless its better for them) you're living Disneyland IMO grin and will be waiting a very long time.  

Make no mistake;  Presidents, all Presidents, conserve the status quo (or better known as, the lives of the fabulously wealthy).  That is their primary function, regardless of party, to protect the wealthy at all costs.  Thank goodness more and more are recognizing this important fact and having some light bulb moments.  Would that be evolution?

I've also experienced health care in other countries, some w/ excellent care and access, some w/ none to little (thank goodness I had that government job, heh?).  My experiences were not quite like the descriptions offered by kathyp, but she offered no actual locations so am not certain what it all meant really, accept to refute the fact that better and cheaper systems 'really' do exist, despite her assertion.  

In the States I've mostly relied on VA since retiring and to be honest, I'd rather have the care available in Singapore.

Oh and BTW, in no way are high medical costs associated with the number of people in a Country (that's a myth or lie perpetuated by the industry, you choose) the argument simply makes no sense and the VA is a 'perfect' example.  

With "more" people included we should be able to strike a 'better' deal for 'all' not just the most profitable deal for the 'non-providing' insurer.

thomas
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« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2012, 02:00:30 PM »

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So called Market 'solutions' is what brought us to this place kathyp.

not so.  there are no market forces in medical costs.

Quote
I've been hearing people (mostly politicians) proclaim the benefits of VA health Care and its own successful solutions to high medical costs for years.  I see no reason why their methods couldn't be adopted in mass, other than the lost profits (entitlements?) of a few profiteers/conmen who provide nothing, least of all actual health care.


again, very small, and very expensive system.  it is not really cost effective.  it's kept in place for political considerations.  it would be cheaper to to voucher vets who need care and don't have insurance, but that's not a politically viable change.

Quote
People don't just go to other countries because they can pay cash kathyp.  They go because their 'insurance company' very likely denied all or part of a claim and in order to have the particular procedure done in the States requires a mortgage AND all first born children, just as a down payment .  OK, I'm making that last part up, but unless your living in a cave you must know what I mean.

just as people from single payer countries come here for care that is denied under their system. 

Quote
I've also experienced health care in other countries, some w/ excellent care and access, some w/ none to little (thank goodness I had that government job, heh?).  My experiences were not quite like the descriptions offered by kathyp, but she offered no actual locations so am not certain what it all meant really, accept to refute the fact that better and cheaper systems 'really' do exist, despite her assertion. 


read more carefully.  i told you that most of my detailed info comes from the NHS in england and some from working border states and seeing patients from canada.

Quote
In the States I've mostly relied on VA since retiring and to be honest, I'd rather have the care available in Singapore.

and yet, this is the kind of system you want here.

Quote
Oh and BTW, in no way are high medical costs associated with the number of people in a Country (that's a myth or lie perpetuated by the industry, you choose) the argument simply makes no sense and the VA is a 'perfect' example. 

With "more" people included we should be able to strike a 'better' deal for 'all' not just the most profitable deal for the 'non-providing' insurer.

it's less the number and more the demographics.  we have large numbers of immigrants, many of whom come here with poor care from their own countries.  we have large numbers of people who pay not taxes yet use the majority of the care. 

ok, confused now.  do you love the VA or not?  or is "free" the thing that attracts you.

i'm really curious as to how this spreading the cost thing is going to work.  only a hair more than 1/2 the population pays federal tax now.  the population is aging so that's not going to get better.  there is no way that you can get enough out of the so called rich, to come close to covering cost.  looks to me like the middle class will absorb most of the cost of your plan.  you think that's helpful to the future economy of the country?

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2012, 02:53:55 PM »

More 'assumptions' and a dangerous belief in the myth/lie of American Health Care costs kathyp.  That's a shame.  Health care costs (if we can really even call 'profits' cost) are 'primarily' driven by the profit driven markets you seem to think are going to save us.  You really should change the channel once in a while rolleyes.

I know how much some love to blame 'immigrants' or the poor for all of our problems, but its only because they are the easiest target and our politicians are famous for this type of manipulation when 'struggling' for votes.  Historically this is nothing new, immigrants and those less fortunate have always gotten a bad rap from the 'alleged' natives rolleyes, especially in America.

My VA Health Care was/is hardly free kathyP, another assumption.  Everyone who honorably served 'earned' that care, every bit as much as the tycoons of Wall Street 'earned' their bonuses rolleyes  And NO, I don't want VA for everyone, never said that, it sucks.  I want MEDICARE for everyone, paid for w/ a more 'realistic' tax that will actually pay for it.  

BUT...we must first eliminate the middle/con men.  Nothing can/will be accomplished until we do that.

Although I do agree, Vets should be able to see any doctor they choose and not be forced to drive 100s of miles for VA care, which would certainly cut down on 'some' costs.  For some conditions they actually do contract w/ outside entities on a fee basis, but its rare.

People coming to America for medical care are primarily from two groups kathyp.  

The wealthy seeking the best, most expensive Doctors and those who simply couldn't wait for some kind of 'elective' procedure.  To suggest otherwise is ridicules and to put it simply, not true.  There are NOT people dying, waiting for needed heart surgery in Canada, another lie from the Industry.

You know, you're not the only one who knows Canadians (or Europeans) kathyp.  As a Sault St. Marie Tribal Member (OJIBWA) and former world traveler, I know lots of chinooks, and am also privileged to have dual citizenship with America and Canada so I know a little bit about some of these things.  

I could talk Health Care and the real causes of its costs and inequities for Days..............Last year I was kicked off a AARP Health care Committee for accusing them of compliance and profiteering off their own medical Insurance peddling to people who can least afford it,  all disguised as 'helping' people with their medical expenses.  

When the truth is/was, it was the cost of the (mostly unneeded) insurance causing the most harm.  AARP still sells Insurance Cry

P.S.  Even immigrants and the poor pay social security and MEDICARE taxes kathyp.  No way to get out of that unless your rich enough as only the wealthy get an exemption for these deductions, making it one of the most blatant examples of how they fail to pay their fair share in social security taxes.  I believe the cap for 2012 is $120,000, where contributions to social security end for the few who make that kind of money.  A tax benefit 'Just' for the 'already' well off.

thomas
« Last Edit: January 23, 2012, 03:40:46 PM by T Beek » Logged

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« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2012, 04:00:55 PM »

well, ok.  you know it all and you have a superb grasp of what the free market is and how it works.  you win.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2012, 05:52:16 PM »

Hey, that's my line grin

Sounds like a cop out, rather than an engaged discussion, something you once accused me of Wink some time ago.  Not like you to just give up either.  We both call em as we see em.  Certainly nothing wrong w/ that....but....Is this 'an acceptance' of some of my thoughts or just telling me you've had enough of my attempts to persuade a different viewpoint.............until next time? 

Persuasion was never part of the plan, just loving the dialogue as a retired person is all, and I simply can't resist investigating any assertions made by most anyone , ; likely a glaring personality flaw in some circles but its served me well so far   cool

BTW; IMO, there's no such thing as a 'free market' in America as 'most' of us are firmly excluded from any actual participation or access to any such animal.  The closest 'we' (average folks) have is the barter system or perhaps some other forms of illicit transactions, but even those examples aren't always so free (they're starting to regulate yard and garage Sales around here rolleyes).  Our choices as consumers become more limited all the time making our purchases as much 'chosen for us' as not IMO, just mine now, only mine.

All other forms are an illusion designed to make us think we have some power, whether economically or socially, where we really have none at all, unless we organise (and stop with all the 'manufactured' divisiveness that only serves the masters) that is Smiley

thomas
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« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2012, 06:40:58 PM »

 applause applause applause  T Beek has clearly done his research and understands the issues.
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« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2012, 06:58:23 PM »

Hey, that's my line grin

Sounds like a cop out, rather than an engaged discussion, something you once accused me of Wink some time ago.  Not like you to just give up either.  We both call em as we see em.  Certainly nothing wrong w/ that....but....Is this 'an acceptance' of some of my thoughts or just telling me you've had enough of my attempts to persuade a different viewpoint.............until next time? 

Persuasion was never part of the plan, just loving the dialogue as a retired person is all, and I simply can't resist investigating any assertions made by most anyone , ; likely a glaring personality flaw in some circles but its served me well so far   cool

BTW; IMO, there's no such thing as a 'free market' in America as 'most' of us are firmly excluded from any actual participation or access to any such animal.  The closest 'we' (average folks) have is the barter system or perhaps some other forms of illicit transactions, but even those examples aren't always so free (they're starting to regulate yard and garage Sales around here rolleyes).  Our choices as consumers become more limited all the time making our purchases as much 'chosen for us' as not IMO, just mine now, only mine.

All other forms are an illusion designed to make us think we have some power, whether economically or socially, where we really have none at all, unless we organise (and stop with all the 'manufactured' divisiveness that only serves the masters) that is Smiley

thomas
And that is what communism is and what they [the communist] have been trying to acommplish for several decades and that is what Obama is pushing for as we discuss such things. And that is why we the people have to get him out of power. butt kick
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« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2012, 08:55:22 AM »

sterling; it must so easy to repeat such nonsense that reflects no truth at all in the 'real' world.  Living in the bubble and all that, you know? 

You really might want try a little to expand your knowledge input and not rely so much on the fringes for life's explanations.  Sorry Sad.

Which 'leaders' (or movement/ideology) do you think you are following or assisting with that assertion?  Where exactly did you get such an idea? 

Wait, wait, let me guess rolleyes

Obama is about as far from communism as Bush was and as for examples, has pretty much stuck w/ some of Bush's most restrictive policies enacted upon the majority, and has most assuredly 'protected' the same criminal class. 

Pay attention man!

Obama is........oh....., just go read a book or something, will you please grin

thomas
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« Reply #32 on: January 25, 2012, 01:13:28 PM »

TBEEK YOU ARE THE ONE WHO NEEDS TO PAY ATTENTION YOU AIN'T AS SMART AS YOU THINK YOU ARE!
What do you think Mr. Obama meant when he said he is going to FOUDAMENTALLY TRANSFORM THIS COUNTRY?
Bush didn't pass a bill that would completely control all individuals in the country health care.
Bush didn't take over the complete control over educational loans.
Bush didn't say "if congress want do what I want them to do I will do it without them."
Nor did Bush say he was going to spread the wealth. Which is an important theme of the communist party.

Since you have so much free time, look into the backgrounds of some of Obama's people. Rahm Emanuel, David Axlerod, Andy Stern, Valarie Jarret,Anita Dunn, Van Jones. Check their communist connections.
You might look into Obama's connections also. His father was a communist as was his mothers parents as was his mentor in Hawaii Frank Marshall Davis, a known communist. Davis was also Axlerod's mentor.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2012, 06:19:33 PM by sterling » Logged
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« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2012, 06:37:54 PM »

 beat a dead horse
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« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2012, 09:29:44 PM »

beat a dead horse
Sorry if I am rehashing a subject that has already been settled. I am just trying to keep you from makeing the same mistake in Nov. Jerry
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« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2012, 10:01:34 PM »

4 more years, 4 more years  grin
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« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2012, 10:10:16 PM »

4 more years and what will our debt be?  oh yeah, we need 4 more years of this!
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2012, 10:34:30 PM »

4 more years and we won't have any debt. There'll be new money with new denominations, to go with the national dress uniforms and national ID cards. Hitler will be so proud, he'll be saluting from the grave.
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« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2012, 08:55:30 AM »

4 more years and we won't have any debt. There'll be new money with new denominations, to go with the national dress uniforms and national ID cards. Hitler will be so proud, he'll be saluting from the grave.

iddee; That's exactly what I'd expect to hear from the guy who called the President a 'monkey' on reply #16, this thread rolleyes.

Hitler thought his brand of 'corporatism' (along w/ separatism, violent if necessary) was the answer to all life's problems, so if one 'really' believes in such things, he's already proud of America. 

Personally IMO;  When you're dead, your just dead.  Hitler is only kept alive by his fans.

thomas
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« Reply #39 on: January 26, 2012, 08:57:49 AM »

Save your confederate money Boys,(you know the rest)..dl
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« Reply #40 on: January 26, 2012, 10:12:10 AM »

Now understand this. All great
> democracies have committed financial suicide somewhere
> between 200 and 250 years after being founded. The
> reason? The voters figured out they could vote
> themselves money from the treasury by electing people
> who promised to give them money from the treasury in
> exchange for electing them.
>
> The United States officially became a Republic in 1776,
> 235 years ago. The number of people now getting free stuff
> outnumbers the people paying for the free stuff. We have
> one chance to change that in 2012. Failure to change that
> spells the end of the United States as we know it
 Brian
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« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2012, 10:12:55 AM »

Quote
Hitler thought his brand of 'corporatism' (along w/ separatism, violent if necessary) was the answer to all life's problems, so if one 'really' believes in such things, he's already proud of America.  

Personally IMO;  When you're dead, your just dead.  Hitler is only kept alive by his fans.

we have "corporatism" now like we have never seen, and we have separatism, them (rich) vs us (the rich stole from) coming from the WH in a way we have never seem.

we study history because there are pattern which repeat.  unfortunately, some don't seem to learn much from history.  guess they are always hoping and changing....or something.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #42 on: January 26, 2012, 11:10:52 AM »

sterling; All great democracies have what........?  How many great democracies have there been?  Where can this history be obtained?  Titles and authors (or examples) please grin  1776 was when we declared our Independance, Constitution came about 9-10 years later I believe.  Not to sure when we 'officially' became a Republic.

Could you name just a few of those 'great democracies' for the ignorant among us please.  USA not included since you've already decided our fate.  

Has most of the world wrongly believed that we've never had 'any' such thing as a 'great democracy', only some futile attempts at best historically, mostly due the insurmountable forces against such ideological movements and implemented by the corrupt (monied) few at the top of society?  Hm mm, now that does sound more familiar.

kathyp; our primary difference 'here' (just this one tidbit Wink seems to be that you want to blame the WH and I want to blame those who actually 'control' the WH (that's not us).   Is that right?  

It sure seems to be going around a lot around here.  

FYI; in reality 'some' of us actually are actively involved in various movements that have made positive change, both in America and around the world.  Not everyone just gripes and blames others for the problems of the world.  Some of us are in the fight every day.

The sticker on my truck says; "stop bitchin, start a revolution."  Too much info?  Starting/joining/doing/agitating something (mostly in opposition to authority) is my mantra.  For the most part, non violent actions are considerably more rewarding than sitting around blaming someone else, whether we 'choose' to blame the President, the rich, the immigrants or the poor, or even the neighbors dog grin.

You know my fellow citizens, It really 'doesn't make a difference' who is occupying the building (WH), no matter what we are told by the dividers who insist otherwise.  This whole election is just a smoke screen, although it sure does make a lot of money  shocked

thomas Smiley
« Last Edit: January 26, 2012, 12:53:18 PM by T Beek » Logged

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« Reply #43 on: January 26, 2012, 12:03:05 PM »

Quote
FYI; in reality 'some' of us actually are actively involved in various movements that have made positive change, both in America and around the world.  Not everyone just gripes and blames others for the problems of the world.  Some of us are in the fight every day.

well, good for you.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #44 on: January 26, 2012, 12:46:55 PM »

No..............good for "you" kathyp Smiley.

 cool

thomas
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« Reply #45 on: February 12, 2012, 01:33:52 AM »

... 1% of patients accounted for a whopping 21% of US healthcare spending!  The top 5% accounted for 50% of all health care spending!  Of course most of these 5%ers are the elderly... The baby boomers are hitting the hospitals now and there isn’t enough generation XYZ to subsidize all the bills...

I'll play the devils advocate again and suggest that abortion be made illegal.  Not an instant solution but a step in the right direction.  Then we can pack up and send the 99%ers who comprize OWS to the moon to serve as colonist on Newt's moon base.   grin  Hey, I'm on a roll. rolleyes
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« Reply #46 on: February 12, 2012, 08:00:36 AM »

I don't know whether to laugh or cry on that one  huh

t
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« Reply #47 on: February 12, 2012, 10:29:02 AM »

ah kingbee, i have missed your wit!   Wink

you have a point though.  if you really want to see a stark example of an aging population and - birth rate, look at japan.  if you are pregnant, you'll be hard pressed to find an obstetrician.  not enough babies born to make the specialty worth while.  they have nursing homes now because there are not enough younger people to care for the elderly at home, as was tradition.  kids are getting pet whatevers, and robot things for company and companionship, rather than marry and have children. 

all first world countries are in more or less the same boat, but it is very easy to study in japan because in two generations they have had a marked change in culture due to low birth rates.

because of low birth rates in 1st world countries (the US is barely above - rate) these countries are importing 3rd world labor.  the loons are split between the opinions that this is a good thing for the 3rd worlders, or this is a form of slavery.
 
the immediate impact on the 1st world countries is that their own culture is diluted.  in the eurpean countries they do not have the same "melting pot" mentality that we have here.  their imports are more or less segregated, or choose to be segregated.  this leads to things like the muslim riots in france.  you end up with international gang lands.  what happens when the imported population is strong enough to impose it's will on the rest?  you end up with francistan.  because we no longer expect people to come here and be americans, we are headed in the same direction.  want to see where?  look at the goals of groups like LA RAZA.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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