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Author Topic: Medical Bills  (Read 2988 times)
BlueBee
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« on: January 08, 2012, 01:27:48 PM »

We’ve seen in previous posts there is a near universal hatred of Obama’s attempt to keep medical costs in check among beeks.  That’s all great until you get sick and start seeing some real bills these days.  So I’m wondering if any of you out there have any medical cost stories to share?  Good or bad?

Here’s a couple bills hitting close to home this month.  

$41,000 to have a gall bladder removed.  That was what the hospital billed my Dad to have his gall bladder removed in December.  It was a laparoscopic removal.   Yes, insurance covered most of that, but ultimately SOMEBODY paid this exorbitant price.

$887 for a 3month refill of narcolepsy meds.  That was what they wanted from the wife of a friend.  She decided coffee was going to have to replace the meds Smiley
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kathyp
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« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2012, 01:58:01 PM »

i don't right off the top of my head, but how about 41,000 for a car, and 150 a month for iphone service.  life is about choices!

you can go back and read all of our posts about insurance and how 3rd party medical coverage drives up cost.  you can read about the cost of being sued day in and day out by nutters who believe that if the is a DR at the end of your name, you are wealthy.

if there is any part of that you don't understand from the old posts, i'm sure someone....maybe even I?  will be happy to help you out.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2012, 02:13:27 PM »

Rather or not you want to buy a $41,000 car is a choice.  Rather or not you have to get an infected Gallbladder removed is not really a choice unless you’re a tea party fanatic. 

When comparing cars to gallbladders you might also consider that it takes thousands of man hours and a lot of raw materials to make a car.  You are paying for labor from thousands of fellow Americans (or Japanese) when you buy a car.  To get a gallbladder removed it takes 1 hour and a team of about 6 people. 

$41,000 for 1 hour of “work”?  This is what you defend?

Car prices are determined by capitalism, medical prices by cronyism and monopolistic practices.   
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buzzbee
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« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2012, 03:17:21 PM »

Medical bills also are high because of the large staff a hospital requires to comply with government regulations.Lets not think that all that money goes to a team of six. Did some one wash the linens in the hospital? I am assuming it was done in a sterile environment? Was the patient kept warm during the visit?
How many of the nursing staff checked on the patient?
 A lot of what people expect with a stay in the hospital costs money.And to be honest, a doctor still needs a lot more schooling than the guy on the assembly line.I have never heard of a UAW worker needing to carry malpractice insurance,although with some of the lemons produced,maybe they should?

i am guessing nobody spent a lot of money so that a laparoscopic removal is possible. I bet the equipment for the procedure alone is expensive,let alone the time it takes to learn to do it without killing the patient.
Perhaps we should use old surgical methods for removal with a higher risk of failure. Or it least make it a lower cost option?
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kathyp
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« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2012, 03:28:24 PM »

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Rather or not you have to get an infected Gallbladder removed is not really a choice unless you’re a tea party fanatic.  


not sure i see the connection between the tea party and a gallbladder.  having never been to a tea party event, i may not have heard about it....

Quote
When comparing cars to gallbladders you might also consider that it takes thousands of man hours and a lot of raw materials to make a car.  You are paying for labor from thousands of fellow Americans (or Japanese) when you buy a car.  To get a gallbladder removed it takes 1 hour and a team of about 6 people.


all of whom have 100's of thousands of dollars and "man hours" worth of education, and done in a hospital with millions of dollars of equipment.  also, your 41 thousand for the surgery helps pay for the cost of insurance for every one else and for those who carry no insurance and still get the 41 thousand dollar surgery. every hospital has a staff of lawyers.  every doctor carries malpractice insurance that can be over 100 thousand a year, depending on specialty.

Quote
Car prices are determined by capitalism, medical prices by cronyism and monopolistic practices.  


not so.  a large part of the cost of a car is determined by labor costs.  since there is no market force in labor costs, the market has no impact on that added cost.  labor costs also include legacy cost...also outside market forces.

there is no monopoly in medicine, but because of insurance, there are no market forces.  you buy or are provided insurance, then you go where you are told to go for whatever treatment they will pay for.  you do not have a choice in how or where the money is spent.

  imagine if medical insurance where like car or home insurance.  you buy the kind of catastrophic insurance you feel you need, and pay out of pocket for the routine stuff.  you would shop for care just as you shop for a plumber or mechanic.  you would shop for insurance the same.  then there would be competition for your dollars and cost would be less.  if you paid out of pocket for even more expensive stuff, you could shop for it and it would cost less.

there used to be tons of low cost and free clinics.  doctor used to volunteer many hours in charity work.  there were charity hospitals.  most of this is gone now.  between malpractice insurance costs and the demand that everyone have everything paid for by insurance so everyone can have everything, choices are actually limited for many.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2012, 07:53:05 PM »

Yeah, I've got one for you. My wife went into the hospital with chest pains. 24 hours later they said in was indigestion, not her heart. I received a bill for 16,000 plus. I went there and complained. What did they say?? "Why are you worried about it, your ins. will pay it."
Well, when I told them we don't have ins., they said, "Oh, well, just pay 10.00 a month and the gov. will kick in and make it up after a period of time". I told them where to go, and if they ever wanted to see a penny, they would write it fully paid for 5,000. They agreed immediately. If it wasn't for ins., they would likely have diagnosed it immediately as what it was, gave us a bill for 75.00, and it would have been over. Now add that to this........


Subject:       Medicare Insurance (a short MUST read) Big increase coming
 
 
 
 
  Medicare              Insurance (a short MUST read)
 
 
 
Look clearly at the 2014 rate compared to the 2013 rate.
 
For those of you who are on Medicare, read the following. It's short, but
important and you probably haven't heard about it in the Mainstream News:
 
"The per person Medicare Insurance Premium will increase from the present
Monthly Fee of $96.40, rising to:
 
$104.20 in 2012
 
$120.20 in              2013
 
And
 
$247.00 in 2014."
 
These are Provisions incorporated in the Obamacare Legislation,  purposely
delayed so as not to confuse the 2012 Re-Election Campaigns.  Send this to
all Seniors that you know, so they will know who's throwing them under              the
bus.
 
 
How else is the government going to pay for all the
medical care for the illegal aliens.
 

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« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2012, 07:58:20 PM »

Bluebee: You probably better be glad Obama care is not fully in place now, the govt. committee may have turned the procedure for your dad down for some reason like he wasn't health enough to waste the money on or was too old or some other reason.

As for the TEA PARTY events I have been to several and have not seen a gallbladder surgery preformed at one yet but you never know about these crazy right wingers.

I was at a Tea Party meeting at our then congressman Bart Gorden's office in Murfessboro TN during the health care debate and a bunch of AFLCIO bullies came after the gathering started and began chest butting the old men and women and shouting with megaphones and caused quiet a stir. But nobody got cut open or anything.
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luvin honey
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« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2012, 09:21:59 PM »

I think health insurance is at a crisis point in our country. It hurts employers, it hurts employees (costs skyrocketing) and it hurts the unemployed.

MANY people are involved in a 1-hour operation, but I'm sure there's still fraud and wastefulness and abuse. Sometimes healthcare providers are charging more to insurance to make up for lost payments from Medicare/Medicaid and indigent patients.

We paid out over $11,000 from our own pockets this past year for insurance, premiums, stop-gaps, dental and medication. And we're a healthy family of 4.
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kathyp
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« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2012, 10:12:38 PM »

yup, it's expensive.  what if you had the option of only paying for the care you needed for the year, and paying much less for a catastrophic insurance policy?  bet you wouldn't spend 11 thousand dollars for the care you used!
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2012, 10:43:55 PM »

It looks to me like our medical care system was originally designed as a ponzi scheme.  New money flows in from healthy young people to pay the repair bills for old people.  Statistically the old people are the ones that get the most care and the young people pay for (subsidize it) through high insurance rates.  

That design might have kept working if we had a lot of young people employed by healthy corporations and paying into the ponzi scheme.  You need a lot of young people’s money to pay for the bills to keep the old people repaired.  Their bills are accelerating at rates way above inflation.

Today we have just to opposite conditions in which this crazy system was invented.  We have less and less young healthy people paying into the system and we have more and more old people with escalating bills to keep them repaired.  The WW2 baby boom is hitting the hospitals.  The old system can’t be sustained; there’s not enough young people paying in.  Don’t the Republicans grasp this obvious state of affairs?

Obama’s solution is to FORCE ALL the young people (and old people) to pay into the ponzi scheme so that we can continuing paying the HUGE bills the old people are racking up.  Personally I would rather see cost cuts than forcing people to pay into a ponzi scheme.  However lacking the ability to cut costs, I don’t see many other viable solutions besides Obama-care.
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« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2012, 11:03:31 PM »

The ironic thing is the people whom are going to benefit the most from Obama care are the older people (Republican demographic) who are vehemently against it.  The people whom are going to get screwed over (ie carry most of the cost burden) by Obama care are the younger people (Democrats) who voted for Obama! 
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kathyp
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« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2012, 01:35:00 AM »

Quote
It looks to me like our medical care system was originally designed as a ponzi scheme.


no, that's medicare and SSI.  insurance companies are about spreading the cost.  we all pay for each others care rather than paying for what we use or want.


T
Quote
he ironic thing is the people whom are going to benefit the most from Obama care are the older people (Republican demographic) who are vehemently against it.  The people whom are going to get screwed over (ie carry most of the cost burden) by Obama care are the younger people (Democrats) who voted for Obama! 


i'm not sure that's quite accurate.  you have the democrat and republican part kind of right, but not the ages.  it's simple to understand.  democrats, regardless of age, believe it is the governments job to care for all.  some liberal republicans think that too.  conservatives believe that they make better choices  their own needs, and that the free market not only brings down cost, but improves care.

young people tend to be idealistic.  that's not a bad thing.  at some point, it's good to grow up and realize that the world, and people, are not = to your youthful fantasy.  anyone who has had a chance to get a close look at something like the NHS, knows that national health care is a disaster....unless you want to sacrifice good care for "free" care.  a lot of Canadians know that too. that's why so many of them come here to get the care they can't get at home, in spite of the fact that they have one of the better national systems.

and....what the government provides for....it controls.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2012, 03:54:56 AM »

Sometimes I feel like a dentist around here…..

Will you at least concede that if less people are paying money into the insurance companies and more people are taking money out (ie huge hospital bills for an aging population), then basic accounting dictates that the rates people are paying are going to (and have been) skyrocketing?  Will you at least give me that?

If so, then how do you see that problem improving in fantasy land when less people are paying and more people are receiving?
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BlueBee
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« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2012, 04:19:52 AM »

Maybe there is something with bee keeping that is keeping this demographic more fit than I would expect.  It is hard for me to believe there aren’t more beeks out there with huge medical bills.  I know of a number of people (some in their 20s/30s) with cancer but I do not know the size of the bills the medical system is billing for their care.  I would bet it’s astronomical though.  Just who is paying for all those bills?

The mother of an uncle of mine got in a 1 car accident and hit a rock a couple of years ago.  She’s in her low 90s now.  Completely shattered her already frail legs.  She’s had countless surgeries and re-surgeries.  They’ve put in, and taken out, enough titanium to build a small aircraft.  She’s now in a 24 hour care nursing home.  Obviously there is no way she can pay for all that care.  Who foots the bill in such cases?  Who should foot the bill?  
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« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2012, 07:57:24 AM »

Bluebee, look at the other side of the problem. If you compare prices of most items we use today with their prices 50 years ago, you will find they are 10 to 15 times as much.

If you compare medical prices to the same period, you will find they are astronomical, in comparison. To the tune of a hundred fold or more.

I had a jaw tooth pulled yesterday. It cost me 93 times what it cost when I was a kid. If the ins. were gone or much restricted and the litigation controlled, medical costs would go back to comparing with mainstream prices and the system wouldn't need such gross amounts to survive.
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« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2012, 08:22:15 AM »


I had a jaw tooth pulled yesterday. It cost me 93 times what it cost when I was a kid.

iddee.....

What was you a kid 1927 ?  grin Or are you still a kid Huh

   BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
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« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2012, 11:18:58 AM »

Quote
Will you at least concede that if less people are paying money into the insurance companies and more people are taking money out (ie huge hospital bills for an aging population), then basic accounting dictates that the rates people are paying are going to (and have been) skyrocketing?  Will you at least give me that?

If so, then how do you see that problem improving in fantasy land when less people are paying and more people are receiving?

under those circumstances, it can't improve.  you are assuming that we continue to allow people to be served for free.  i am saying that they should not.  get rid of the federal medicare/medicaid programs.  allow states to do what they think is best for those in poverty...and i would suggest an insurance pool that has low cost coverage that the poor BUY at a lower cost.  understand that everyone can't have everything and that shouldn't be a problem.  the state programs are already rationed care.

there are 3 things that could be done right now to lower cost.  get rid of insurance mandates.  this would lower the cost of insurance for those who want it.  do tort reform.  then encourage cash based clinics, which are already popular in many areas, and encourage charity medical care.  much of this must be done on a state by state basis, but that is as it should be.

Quote
I know of a number of people (some in their 20s/30s) with cancer but I do not know the size of the bills the medical system is billing for their care.  I would bet it’s astronomical though.  Just who is paying for all those bills?

you are.  that's what happens when you spread cost across all care. 


Quote
Completely shattered her already frail legs.  She’s had countless surgeries and re-surgeries.  They’ve put in, and taken out, enough titanium to build a small aircraft.  She’s now in a 24 hour care nursing home.  Obviously there is no way she can pay for all that care.  Who foots the bill in such cases?  Who should foot the bill? 


again, you are.  if people paid for catastrophic coverage out of pocket...what they thought they needed....those in that insurance pool would be covering it.  it would be your choice to get into that or not.  if you didn't, the care should be paid out of pocket, or done by a charity organization. 

look at this this way.  if you don't pay for what you need, your care is rationed by you.  if the insurance company, or the government doesn't pay, your care is rationed by them.  i'd rather make my own choices about my care.

the fantasy is that everyone can have everything and someone else will pay.  it doesn't work....anywhere. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2012, 01:55:21 PM »

You seem to be under the illusion that the insurance “pool” has enough people and money to keep paying for all the bills indefinitely.  The insurance pool is feed by real people making real wages and those wages have been flat lined relative to inflation for 30 years for most people.  Medical costs have never been flat lined though, they keep going up at rates way beyond inflation.

So when costs are raising at rates beyond what the pool can sustain, and the number of people feeding the pool is decreasing (un-employment), you have a system that can’t be sustained.

The pool isn’t some magical ATM machine than can just print money like the fed.

I agree with Iddee that the fundamental problem is the medical community lives in their own little world and believes they are entitled to charge whatever astronomical fee for their “labor” as they want.  Since they’ve got the system rigged to prevent competition (limits on med schools, entry fees, litigatin, etc), the cost part of the problem is not going to go away.
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« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2012, 02:05:16 PM »

i can remember, years ago, getting injured at work.

i saw the bill for one ER visit was $1200 for what amounted to a glorified band aid, luckily the company paid for it, and this was like 15 years ago
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« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2012, 02:29:04 PM »

""Since they’ve got the system rigged to prevent competition (limits on med schools, entry fees, litigatin, etc), the cost part of the problem is not going to go away.""

No, they've got the system rigged to believe in private ins., backed up by gov. ins. Either way, the patient doesn't have to pay, so doesn't care what it cost.

Put the bill back on the patient and you will see empty doctor's offices advertizing for clients instead of waiting 3 months for an appointment. The prices will go down to balance with the rest of the economy.
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« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2012, 03:06:14 PM »

insurance pools already exist.  i suggest, and others have, that this is a way for those who would normally be dependent on the state, to buy limited coverage that they pay for.  yes, to some extent the cost would be passed on to others, but it would be less cost than is currently passed on.  for one thing, you'd be able to do away with much of the government bureaucracy that sucks up tax dollars before it gives more tax dollars to the poor.  
because people would be paying for the services they use, they would be less apt to abuse them.  same goes for doing away with insurance for routine care.  less abuse, more competition, we all pay for our own.....less cost.

you seem to think that the medical system is out to get you.  remember, they are forced to care for anyone who walks in the door reguardless of insurance or ability to pay.  the guy with no insurance and chest pain gets the same workup and the guy with good insurance or cash in his pocket.  you pay for that.  

what we have, is not efficient or cost effective.  what the government offers, will be a disaster.  we need to think outside the box and people need to be more responsible for their own.  

what would be your solution?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2012, 05:37:59 PM »

You have pretty much proved my point that the current system is broken and un-sustainable.  Fewer and fewer people are paying into the system and more and more people are collecting.  As iddee says, the shrinking pool is also paying for the uninsured as well as the accelerating costs of an aging population.  The pool of younger healthy workers isn’t an infinite ATM machine; they can’t continue to support everybody. 

The current system makes no logical sense; it’s financially un-sustainable.  Yet the Republicans won’t budge to make ANY changes?   That makes no sense.

I tend to agree with iddee that keeping costs under control would be the optimum solution.  Making all the patients feel some real financial pain in medical visits would be a good start.  I know plenty of people with insurance that run to the doctor at the first sniffle and wastes countless hours of doctor’s times.  You can tell these people there is no cure for the common cold virus until you’re blue in the face and they still run to the doctor and get antibiotics EVERYTIME (which of course have no effect on viruses).   While that is a very wasteful use of resources, I believe the majority of medical costs still arise from REAL ailments in the aging population.  You can’t make a bad gall bladder go away.  There seems no way to keep the costs of REAL ailments in check.

Since there seems to be no way to bring the costs under control, the only other viable solution is to make EVERYBODY pay for this system.  You, me, welfare people, everybody.  That makes the pool bigger and keeps the boat afloat for while longer.  That is what Obama care does, it makes everybody (especially the young healthy people) pay into the system to keep the pool funds >= the 15% of GDP we’re spending on medical care every year.


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« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2012, 06:52:51 PM »

""You can’t make a bad gall bladder go away.""

No, but you can see a problem with that gall bladder operation costing 135 times what it did 20 years ago, when inflation is less than double.

Get the sniffle visits cut out and let only the sick get treated. You know, only those who are sick enough to be willing to pay what they have before getting help. There should never be a free visit to a doctor.
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« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2012, 07:53:47 PM »

Quote
The pool of younger healthy workers isn’t an infinite ATM machine; they can’t continue to support everybody.


welcome to conservatism, my son  evil

Quote
Yet the Republicans won’t budge to make ANY changes?

in fact, they offered (i think 3) different plans that this admin refused to look at.  what would you like them to do?

Quote
Since there seems to be no way to bring the costs under control, the only other viable solution is to make EVERYBODY pay for this system.  You, me, welfare people, everybody.  That makes the pool bigger and keeps the boat afloat for while longer.  That is what Obama care does, it makes everybody (especially the young healthy people) pay into the system to keep the pool funds >= the 15% of GDP we’re spending on medical care every year.

how do you figure that? if you already have 47% not paying federal taxes, and you have given out all kinds of wavers to companies so that they can opt out, seems to me you end up in even worse shape with this plan.
which is the goal
because
they don't want an insurance plan.  they want a health care system that is government run.  universal health care is the goal and Obama has said so. 

we have pointed out ways to bring cost down, and quickly.  you don't like those ideas, but they will work and you will retain choice and quality.
-----------
tell me how the Obama plan works....WAIT!  i'll save you the trouble.  no one knows how it works.  the thing was a slog to read and a huge part of it was "to be determined by the secretary of health and human services".  a huge bunch of money was dumped on it up front and the things they thought people would love was started up front.  the rest? to be determined.....
and yes....i read it.  that's part of my life i'll never get back  hissy fit

no one is arguing that medical cost are really high.  however, spreading the cost around some more is not how you fix it.  England has a population of around 65 million people.  the NHS was (don't know if it is still) the 3rd largest employer in the world.  not the country.  the world.  why?  because that's what government does.  they can't afford it.  they can't fix it because it's "a right" now and the care for many thing is both crappy and rationed.  that's what you will spread around, not more affordable, or better care.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2012, 01:58:09 AM »

... $41,000 to have a gall bladder removed... That was what the hospital billed my Dad to have his gall bladder removed... insurance covered most of that, but ultimately SOMEBODY paid this exorbitant price...

Medical insurance companies have steep discount deals with hospitals.  These discounts commonly are in the 80% range.  So the insurance company may have paid less than 12 grand to settle your pop's medical bill.  Much less if he had a 80-20 or similar insurance co-pay.  The hospital’s billing rates frightens us into buying medical insurance and then the hospital cuts a special deal with the insurance companies and settles for less, maybe way less.

I still have the recipe for my last daughter.  She was born in 1981.  I paid the doctor bill every month when my wife saw the doctor.  I negotiated a cash deal in advance with the hospital for the delivery so this amount was only the hospital bill, no doctors' bills were involved.  $1,800 for 4 days in the hospital for my wife and infant daughter, the delivery room, the operating room and an operation to tie my wife's tubes.  I also have the recipe from my father's 2 week stay in a Catholic hospital ward from the mid 50s.  His or our part of the hospital bill was $14 or a dollar a day.  I know he had medical insurance I just don't know how much.

The Hill-Burton Act passed by Congress in the late 40s was the slippery slope that lead to an avalanche in medical costs by creating perverse (perverted) incentives for hospitals and doctors.     
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« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2012, 05:43:47 PM »

yup, it's expensive.  what if you had the option of only paying for the care you needed for the year, and paying much less for a catastrophic insurance policy?  bet you wouldn't spend 11 thousand dollars for the care you used!
Our portion of the policy cost us about $4000. The rabies shots that were covered by that policy (after deductible) were $4000 PER family member (4 in our family).
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« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2012, 06:05:57 PM »

And if we could find the actual cost of manufacturing that vaccine, what do you think it would be? 15, maybe 20 dollars? Maybe even less?

Then they charge 4000 plus deductible to administer it? That is what I am referring to. We need to reduce medical charges, not find ways to pay them as they soar totally out of the universe. If there was no ins. and no gov. interference, the bills for your family would likely total less than a hundred dollars for the rabies shots.
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« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2012, 07:42:27 PM »

you need only look at things that are not covered by insurance to see how it works.  laser eye surgery and many cosmetic surgeries as example.  when the procedure first comes out, it can be pretty expensive.  as more docs compete to do whatever it is, the cost comes down.  the technology also improves. 

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2012, 07:57:26 PM »

Ouch!  Ouch!  Lovin Honey why are you getting rabies treatment if I might ask?  I would like to avoid a similar fate  grin

I’m not up to date on my rabies knowledge, but I expected the treatment (vaccine) would have been off patent protection by now.  One of the reasons why the meds are sooooo expensive is because there is no competition because they’re under patent protection for 17+ years.  The original intent of patents was to give an inventor enough time to recoup their development costs and make a fair profit.   Any more it does seem like a license to steal in many cases. 

I can see legitimate reasons for meds costing way more than the chemicals to make them.  Somebody has to pay all the medical researchers and very high costs of getting FDA approval.   How do you decide what is a fair markup and what is thievery though?   
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« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2012, 09:37:00 PM »

 
Would you consider this a fair markup?


Celebrex 100 mg
Consumer price (100 tablets): $130.27
Cost of general active ingredients: $0.60
Percent markup: 21,712%

Claritin 10 mg
Consumer Price (100 tablets): $215.17
Cost of general active ingredients: $0.71
Percent markup: 30,306%

Keflex 250 mg
Consumer Price (100 tablets): $157.39
Cost of general active ingredients: $1.88
Percent markup: 8,372%  


http://www.anxiety-and-depression-solutions.com/articles/conventional/pharmaceutical/realdrugcosts.php
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« Reply #30 on: January 19, 2012, 11:03:18 PM »

Ouch!  Ouch!  Lovin Honey why are you getting rabies treatment if I might ask?  I would like to avoid a similar fate  grin
Repeated indoor bat exposures, including waking up with one about 6" from my face. Tongue
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« Reply #31 on: January 19, 2012, 11:04:42 PM »


Would you consider this a fair markup?


Celebrex 100 mg
Consumer price (100 tablets): $130.27
Cost of general active ingredients: $0.60
Percent markup: 21,712%

Claritin 10 mg
Consumer Price (100 tablets): $215.17
Cost of general active ingredients: $0.71
Percent markup: 30,306%

Keflex 250 mg
Consumer Price (100 tablets): $157.39
Cost of general active ingredients: $1.88
Percent markup: 8,372%  


http://www.anxiety-and-depression-solutions.com/articles/conventional/pharmaceutical/realdrugcosts.php

Idee, active ingredients are probably the tiniest portion of their costs.

I have a brother in law who works for a company that does testing on food and pharmaceuticals. That would be just ONE huge expense beyond active ingredients. R&D would be another enormous one.

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« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2012, 12:32:11 AM »

and that's a problem we have with how hard it is to get drugs to market.  in the effort to "protect us", it cost companies billions to research, test, and bring through the FDA process.  i am all for safe drugs, but i think we have gone a bit overboard. 

 drugs that are used in other countries are not brought here, or if they are, they have to go through the whole clearance phase even when there is a long history and record for the drug.

the FDA has become another obstructive alphabet agency like the EPA.  so many regulations, fees, and hoops that it's a wonder anything ever gets done.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2012, 06:38:57 PM »

Here ia a short list of things that have already been signed into law by President Obama. Some of these  will cause medical bills to cost more.
1. A 156 percent increase in the federal excise tax on tobacco
2. Obamacare Individual Mandate Excise Tax
3. Obamacare Employer Mandate Tax
4. Obamacare Surtax on Investment Income
5. Obamacare Excise Tax on Comprehensive Health Insurance Plans
6. Obamacare Hike in Medicare Payroll Tax
7. Obamacare Medicine Cabinet Tax
8. Obamacare HSA Withdrawal Tax Hike
9. Obamacare Flexible Spending Account Cap – aka “Special Needs Kids Tax”
10. Obamacare Tax on Medical Device Manufacturers
11. Obamacare “Haircut” for Medical Itemized Deduction from 7.5% to 10% of AGI
12. Obamacare Tax on Indoor Tanning Services
13. Obamacare elimination of tax deduction for employer-provided retirement Rx drug coverage in coordination with Medicare Part D
14. Obamacare Blue Cross/Blue Shield Tax Hike
15. Obamacare Excise Tax on Charitable Hospitals
16. Obamacare Tax on Innovator Drug Companies
17. Obamacare Tax on Health Insurers
18. Obamacare $500,000 Annual Executive Compensation Limit for Health Insurance Executives
19. Obamacare Employer Reporting of Insurance on W-2
20. Obamacare “Black liquor” tax hike
21. Obamacare Codification of the “economic substance doctrine
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« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2012, 08:45:11 AM »

$41,000 for 1 hour of “work”? 
You do not take into account the years of education all those folks in that OR suite have in combination, then there are the certifications.  You can bet all those folks carry malpractice, if they don't they are fools.

Frankly I think 41 grand is a deal.  Does that include the hospital fees.  That makes it an even better deal.  The anesthesiologist has the highest insurance rate, probably 20% of his fee to the patient....yes, 20%.  Thank all the lawsuits for that.

The scope for the lap runs in the 100's of thousands of dollars.  Sure it can  be reused....it has to be to make it profitable.  Support staff, pharmacists, nurses, nurses aids, housekeepers, kitchen staff.

Put things in perspective.  I have been involved in medicine for the last 30 years in one facet or another.  I am not a doctor or nurse for a reason.  Up all friggin night, pay stinks, responsibility heavy, certifications up the wazoo, man you got on my wrong side with that statement.  Litigation is why medicine is so darned expensive.

You want to revamp medical costs reign in litigation and put a ceiling on rewards.  Weed out the repeaters and make them get re-educated.  Big $$ rewards for issues needs to stop.  Life is hard folks, and it sucks often too...that is the way it is and nobody is going to ever change that.
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« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2012, 08:47:40 AM »

Here ia a short list of things that have already been signed into law by President Obama. Some of these  will cause medical bills to cost more.
1. A 156 percent increase in the federal excise tax on tobacco
2. Obamacare Individual Mandate Excise Tax
3. Obamacare Employer Mandate Tax
4. Obamacare Surtax on Investment Income
5. Obamacare Excise Tax on Comprehensive Health Insurance Plans
6. Obamacare Hike in Medicare Payroll Tax
7. Obamacare Medicine Cabinet Tax
8. Obamacare HSA Withdrawal Tax Hike
9. Obamacare Flexible Spending Account Cap – aka “Special Needs Kids Tax”
10. Obamacare Tax on Medical Device Manufacturers
11. Obamacare “Haircut” for Medical Itemized Deduction from 7.5% to 10% of AGI
12. Obamacare Tax on Indoor Tanning Services
13. Obamacare elimination of tax deduction for employer-provided retirement Rx drug coverage in coordination with Medicare Part D
14. Obamacare Blue Cross/Blue Shield Tax Hike
15. Obamacare Excise Tax on Charitable Hospitals
16. Obamacare Tax on Innovator Drug Companies
17. Obamacare Tax on Health Insurers
18. Obamacare $500,000 Annual Executive Compensation Limit for Health Insurance Executives
19. Obamacare Employer Reporting of Insurance on W-2
20. Obamacare “Black liquor” tax hike
21. Obamacare Codification of the “economic substance doctrine


And when you get right down to it, businesses will pay those fees and that is a big portion of why the economy is not recovering.
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« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2012, 09:07:33 AM »

Up all friggin night, pay stinks, responsibility heavy, certifications up the wazoo, man you got on my wrong side with that statement.

All of the above for the job that Ive been doing for over 15 years and $41,000 is more than I get paid for a year. Everyone always throws the education costs of Doctors around whenever this discussion comes about, but Ive never saw one hurting for anything shortly after med school. This forum has heard me whine about me having two shoulders rebuilt last year-mine was on Workers Comp and I was prescribed 3 days a week of physical therapy for 16 weeks. Another guy that had it the same day I did, on his own dime ,was prescribed a total of 6 visits. Period. I'm not a 99%'er but some things have got way out of control and no, I don't have an answer on how to solve it.
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« Reply #37 on: January 23, 2012, 10:54:58 AM »

Quote
All of the above for the job that Ive been doing for over 15 years and $41,000 is more than I get paid for a year. Everyone always throws the education costs of Doctors around whenever this discussion comes about, but Ive never saw one hurting for anything shortly after med school

did someone force you to take the job that you have? 

it is true that doctors are paid above average when they finally finish school.  all told, it takes around 12 years to get there.  when done, the average debt is over 150,000 dollars.  it can be much higher depending on school and specialty.  yes, with a good income, they can pay off that debt and not break the bank.  however, there are not to many jobs that require you take that kind of investment risk.  12 years of education and big debt.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #38 on: February 02, 2012, 02:43:52 AM »

... active ingredients are probably the tiniest portion of their costs... I have a brother in law who works for a company that does testing on food and pharmaceuticals. That would be just ONE huge expense beyond active ingredients. R&D would be another enormous one...

Product liability insurance would likely be a still larger cost.
Legal fees would likely be an even larger expense.  Look in your local yellow pages, chances are that the listings for attorneys is the largest single listing in your local phone book.  Some lawyers and law firms have multiple full page adds.  Depending on the size of the city or town, the cost for a full page yellow page add can run into the 5 figure range...... per page ..... EVERY month..... and they advertise in multiple..... phone books.  Don't let a lawyer tell you it doesn't pay to advertise.   
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