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Author Topic: Winter bee life-span  (Read 3663 times)
rdy-b
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« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2012, 12:20:07 AM »

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Dr de Groot published his profound results of bee nutrition year 1953. They have been made so well that results  are valid still now. Dr was born in Austria but made his main works in Germany.

Still now the amino acid studies are very expencive. 60 years ago analytics must have been quite difficult when compared to modern apparatus. There are quite few knowledge about pollen nutrition values of plant species, and the reason must be a huge price.

 It is not easier to make analytics from bees.


 now you are making some sense to me---- cheesy 

 http://www.apidologie.org/index.php?option=com_solr&task=search&input_1=schmickl++crailsheim&countDiv=1&website=1&articles_sci=1&search_in=journal&journal=apido&from=module
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Finski
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« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2012, 12:38:03 AM »

**
**Have you born then?**
yes but no hive tool in hand- Wink



i hope that you had a tit in hand and not a bottle. 

ok, you seems to be an old fart  and angry like a bull
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luvin honey
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« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2012, 08:29:55 PM »

I remember reading/hearing/making up in my head, that winter bees are fed more royal jelly and that that's what gives them their longevity.

Now I'm going to have to look back through my stuff and see if I can find where I got that notion.
This is how my brain works! Isn't it fun?!?
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CapnChkn
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« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2012, 02:30:59 AM »

http://westmtnapiary.com/winter_cluster.html

"A “winter” bee is produced at the end of the summer.  It is physiologically different than the summer bee, with a different hemolymph (blood) protein profile than the summer bee.   Winter bees also have fatter bodies which they rely for nourishment during the non-foraging months.  A winter bee will live much longer (4 to 6 months) than a summer bee (45 days)."
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Finski
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« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2012, 03:41:02 AM »

http://westmtnapiary.com/winter_cluster.html

"A “winter” bee is produced at the end of the summer.  It is physiologically different than the summer bee, with a different hemolymph (blood) protein profile than the summer bee.   Winter bees also have fatter bodies which they rely for nourishment during the non-foraging months.  A winter bee will live much longer (4 to 6 months) than a summer bee (45 days)."


that text says actually nothing but they are different. Of coursethey are.
The writer is an ordinary beekeeper. Not a researcher.

But we know too that if bees  cannot bee in winter rest in cluster, they will not survive to next summer. Mosty glass hives in warm house will perish.

In my latitude winter bee live 8-9 months.

One thing is strange. When my  boy was little, i often took an extra queen and 10 workers into the cage and brought them home to capital city. They lived allways  in cage only 2-3 days. In summer associate bees live 10 days.

About royal jelly


every worker larva is feeded with royal jelly  during its 3 first days.
When the worker emerge, during 3-5 first days a bee eate lots of pollen to finish it growth. An emerged bee does not have fat body and it will be developed with this pollen eating. The message is that pollen must be in the hive all the time. Workers will be miserable winterer  if they do not get enough pollen.  patty is not good enough in that purpose.
Bees will eate teir larvae if the pollen store is finish.
 
As much as I understand no one feed wintered bees when they emerge. Every bee takes care themselves. Of course they change food and so deliver the the messagethat the queen exist.

Once I tried to reviele out the diffence of bee size with weighing. An empty bee's weight is about 100 mg and full of honey it is 170 mg. 

how I get empty bees? I took an just emerging bee but it was 140 mg. Yes, it was feeded allready when it made a tiny hole though the cell cap.

It is better find researcher's text where origin is university. They have time to wonder things. Google seems to be full of vivid imagination writings like "secret of long living". Pollen sellers write what ever.
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Finski
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« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2012, 05:43:04 AM »

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It was year 2002/3 (i suppose)  I lost 60% of my  hives. Same happened on vast area in Finland, Sweden and Germany.  Reason was that the late summer was extremely dry and hives get not enough good quality pollen.  further more it appeared in my yards apistan resistant mites. Trees unsucceeded to drop they leaves in Autumn because the cell organ which loosens the leaf out, was dryed up.

Same happened a while ago on some island of western coast  USA or Canada. The island lost 90% of hives. Report said that summer was very dry.


I  have understood too that pollen stores is a key to resist winter nosema.

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CapnChkn
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« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2012, 12:43:15 AM »

Quote
In my latitude winter bee live 8-9 months.

Yeah, we know.
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AliciaH
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« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2012, 03:24:31 PM »

how I get empty bees? I took an just emerging bee but it was 140 mg. Yes, it was feeded allready when it made a tiny hole though the cell cap.

Finski, I know you like to observe your bees a lot.  Did you witness the bees making this whole and feeding the bee inside? 

I just ask because when I see a small hole in one of my brood caps, I think mites.  But if you did see them doing this and feeding the bee inside, it would give me something new to look for.
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rdy-b
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« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2012, 08:35:55 PM »

how I get empty bees? I took an just emerging bee but it was 140 mg. Yes, it was feeded allready when it made a tiny hole though the cell cap.

Finski, I know you like to observe your bees a lot.  Did you witness the bees making this whole and feeding the bee inside?  

I just ask because when I see a small hole in one of my brood caps, I think mites.  But if you did see them doing this and feeding the bee inside, it would give me something new to look for.

 i think hes talking about the bee hatching -it starts as small hole and bee works its way out-that is how he knew it had not eating(except for what was under the capping) -he watched it hatch-that way he could take the bees weight as a bee with empty gut-i think he would have to do it about 10 times and then see if the number was the same every time-  :loll: for what ever reason he needed to know this information -I DUNO--  Wink -----


 Im trying to verify the number finski gave(140 milligram) as BEE WEIGHT of bee with empty stomach
the numbers Im getting for BEE WEIGHT of average Honey bee--are 90-100 milligrams--professor finski
can you shed some light as to why your bees are so heavy--was it a DRONE--- Wink---or maybe it was a HENWEIGH-- cheesy  RDY-B
« Last Edit: January 09, 2012, 09:42:14 PM by rdy-b » Logged
Finski
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« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2012, 02:35:18 AM »


the numbers Im getting for BEE WEIGHT of average Honey bee--are 90-100 milligrams--professor finski
can you shed some light as to why your bees are so heavy--was it a DRONE--- Wink---or maybe it was a HENWEIGH-- cheesy  RDY-B

you are so funny  . It might be  a bleep flye. Who cares.

when a bee has empty stomach, it weight is about 100 mg. (read more from internet)
With full stomach, like a swarm bee, weight is 170 mg.
And other bees are between those. I like big bees. Even 80 mg bees exist.

I read from Internet that weight of queen and drone is from 170 mg upwards.

My profession does not depend on bees' weight, how much they have  food inside.  cool

what was the great idea in this discussion, I do not know.

I bought a accurate balance to search can I use a bee size when I breed hives.
After several measuring I did not find enough diffencies to use information in selection.

Somehow eys tell different story than a balance. That is strange. A colony is too a big mixture of different bees, and when queen mate, they use more or less the same genepool in this area.

.
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rdy-b
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« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2012, 01:43:16 PM »

yes balance hives are very popular these days--why dont you post pics and some data
like Allen dick -Im sure you read his diary-or are the bees to far away when it is honey flow
I would like to see the incredible gains you get from your superior pastures --- cheesy ---RDY-B
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Finski
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« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2012, 02:28:48 PM »

.
My balance hive's data is in internet and I have linked it in Beemaster forum too.
Now with this mobile  I cannot do it.

Incredible and superior, they are your words. Not mine.
There is nothing where you can use that information.
In last summer my balance hive had 5 langstrots + 4 mediums.
It was an average hive. Yield season lasted 6 weeks. It was exceptional.
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rdy-b
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« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2012, 06:04:35 PM »

At any rate it would be something we would enjoy to see-- Smiley RDY-B
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Tommyt
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« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2012, 06:59:22 PM »

Moving right along I have too ASK
what is??.....
what makes it happen?? .......
Quote
Winter bee, life-span



Happy Hour

Tommyt
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rdy-b
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« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2012, 08:42:19 PM »

Moving right along I have too ASK
what is??.....
what makes it happen?? .......
Quote
Winter bee, life-span



Happy Hour

Tommyt

  HI tomy I hope this answers your quetions-- cheesy

**  A “winter” bee is produced at the end of the summer. It is physiologically different than the summer bee, with a different hemolymph (blood) protein profile than the summer bee.   Winter bees also have fatter bodies which they rely for nourishment during the non-foraging months.  A winter bee will live much longer (4 to 6 months) than a summer bee (45 days).  The sole purpose of the winter bee is to get the colony through 'til spring.  In the fall as the hive prepares for the long winter months ahead, the bee population drops as the summer bees die off, replaced by the smaller winter cluster. Brood production stops. When the outside temperature is above 50°, bees take cleansing flights as they do not defecate inside the hive **
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T Beek
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« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2012, 10:19:36 AM »

I've asked the same question before. 

"What" causes the 'trigger' to be pulled, turning a summer bee into a winter bee?  Is it temperature?  Is it length of day?  Lack of nectar or pollen?

Obviously, bees in south Florida wouldn't be making winter bees, or would they? 

This is the answer I've been seeking for awhile.  Any ideas?

thomas
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rdy-b
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« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2012, 01:37:41 PM »

the brood nest makes its turn when rounds of brood that are being hatched get feed larger and more potent
 amounts of bee milk-this starts the biological reaction in the new bee-vitellogene reserves go up and are stored
 in body fat this in combination with lees flight time give the new bee its longevity-it is a biological reaction to what they
 are being feed by nurse bees that start the process-they have used controlled environments and it is possible to produce a long lived bee in the sumer months--remember there is a economic cost to the colony to produce the extra rich nourishment-
also the wings of the bee only last short period of time during heavy fly periods-the trigger for the nurse bees to start the regime of protein rich feeding is in the bees nature-much like swarming-many things going on for them to react to
environment has a huge impact on the bees predestined urge to survive--to put it in more simpler tearms its THE BROOD FOOD-- cheesy RDY-B
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CapnChkn
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« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2012, 02:00:34 PM »

Quote
"What" causes the 'trigger' to be pulled, turning a summer bee into a winter bee?  Is it temperature?  Is it length of day?  Lack of nectar or pollen?
I don't know.  I would say it's probably the length of the day because the temperature would be too erratic, and dearth would set them to building winter clusters whenever there would be drought.  Like Rdy-b says in the last post, "they have used controlled environments and it is possible to produce a long lived bee in the sumer months--remember there is a economic cost to the colony to produce the extra rich nourishment".

Plants and chickens use photo period, I can't see bees not using it.  Another clue would be the bees starting to produce brood after the solstice.  Rdy, do you have a reference for the study where they make the long lived bees ?
 
Since plant photo period depends on the length of the light shining, I could say it's not just the "days getting longer," rather the length of the daylight.  I remember the day ending at 6:00 PM in winter when I was in Florida, here in Tennessee it ends at 4:30 at the start of January.

I know I'm closer to the time zone line between Eastern and Central, but it's dramatic enough to surprise me when I wake up and the sun's already up.

I have to congratulate Finski, your posts are readable all the sudden.  I would expect an "Angst-ridden" diatribe by now.
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T Beek
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« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2012, 03:13:33 PM »

OK, if winter bees are triggered by day length and NOT temp, one could assume when abnormally warm temps 'follow the birth' of winter bees like this past season, say after the solstice, those winter bees then must either revert back to foragers (w/ nothing remaining to forage in the north) and/or are doomed to a 45 day?? lifespan instead of a 6-7 month one?? huh 

I'm asking because this season fits the description well.  I had bees flying (seeking forage) well into November when they should have been in cluster already, due to abnormal weather.  And the above avergage warm weather has continued through today.  Honeystores are mostly gone already and my bees have little more than sugar to get them through until Spring, still a good four months away for us Sad.   It doesn't look good for my 'winter' bees, but they are a tough bunch cool

I would suspect that a bee in a controlled environment wouldn't be putting on the kind of miles a normal forager would.  Which leads to the other question or possibility.  Is it the fewer miles traveled that allows the winter bee to live so long? 

One would certainly think so.

thomas
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rdy-b
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« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2012, 04:10:41 PM »

**Rdy, do you have a reference for the study where they make the long lived bees ?**

 I will try to chase it down-all this has been rehashed from other posts with plenty of studies

**and/or are doomed to a 45 day?? life-span instead of a 6-7 month one?**
 
as long s there are resources -they will continue to be long lived
resources meaning high vitelogene and body fat levels -as well as beebread
the bees use the protein reserves of there own bodies to maintain biological balance of winter bee metabolism

** Is it the fewer miles traveled that allows the winter bee to live so long?**

this has a lot to do with it yes-but change in bees metabolism is key--but dose no advantage if bees wings wear out
this is the reason bees die in the first place-(baring all the reasons for early demise)

 T beek if the bees fly like your experiencing -when they are normally in winter confinement
 i would also take a chance and say they are rearing some brood--Have you look for brood
just keep them HEAVY and its all good-bees adapt to the changes mother nature provides--Its in there nature
 
 cheesy RDY-B
   
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