Need Bees Removed?
International
Beekeeping Forums
September 01, 2014, 11:35:27 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: ATTENTION ALL NEW MEMBERS
PLEASE READ THIS OR YOUR ACCOUNT MAY BE DELETED - CLICK HERE
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar bee removal Login Register Chat  

Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Where would we be without the southern bees?  (Read 1385 times)
Intheswamp
Queen Bee
****
Online Online

Posts: 1430

Location: South Central Alabama - Zone 8A


WWW
« on: December 28, 2011, 11:08:23 AM »

Hmm, just a thought here and it's kinda rambling...    rolleyes

I've happened upon several threads on different forums where beeks have strongly urged other beeks *not* to buy southern packages or queens...naturally these exchanges are between northern beeks.  And, no, I'm not signalling out northern beeks for picking on southern package producers.  Many people encourage the use of local survivor stock and I tend to agree that it makes good sense and I hope to increase my apiary by swarm trapping and cut/trap outs in the next few years.  The threads I've seen where posters discourage others from using southern bees state the reasons being their acclimation to the southern climate and not the northern climate resulting in larger sizes of winter clusters and food store requirements.  Other negative thoughts expressed have been concerns of AHB infiltration of southern bee colonies by the unwanted migration of the AHB into the southern states.  The large cluster size, I believe, is from the past demand for bigger bees and larger colonies for honey and pollination production along with a heavy use of Italian-bred bees.  AHB invasion is beyond our control but can be attributed also to the desire for a more highly productive bee.  Being in the deep south even I can understand these thoughts...I don't want yankee bees in my apiary that pass out from our heat and humidity, either.  grin   And I don't want AHB in my apiary...though they're coming...we'll just get used to dealing with them before our northern cousins do. Wink

I'm not really looking for an answer here being as I don't think anyone has a rearward looking crystal ball that could see into the future, and this post might should be placed in a different forum but I'll pose the question here and ask the mods to move it if it needs to be moved.  Anyhow...

Where would the nation's honey, pollination, and bee industries be without the last "50 years" (and more) of southern bee breeding and package production? 

My hat's off to the men and women (on both sides of the Mason-Dixon Line) who have stuck with the industry for all of these years...thank you.

Ed
Logged

www.beeweather.com 
American blood spilled to protect the freedom and peace of people all over the world.  320,000 USA casualties in WWI, 1,076,000 USA casualties in WWII, 128,000 USA casualties in the Korean War, 211,000 casualties in the Vietnam "conflict", 57,000 USA casualties in "War on Terror".  Benghazi, Libya, 13 USA casualties. These figures don't include 70,000 MIA.  But, the leaders of one political party of the United States of America continue to make the statement..."What difference does it make?".

"We can't expect the American People to jump from Capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving them small doses of Socialism, until they awaken one day to find that they have Communism."..."The press is our chief ideological weapon." - Nikita Khrushchev
BjornBee
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3773


Location: Lewisberry, PA


« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2011, 01:10:43 PM »

I could not agree more.

Without spring packages, 95% of the beginners every year in most parts of the north would probably go without bees. So on one hand, we should be grateful for the southern producers.

On the other hand, I blame the beekeepers themselves for their inability to be more self sustainable. As example, queen rearing, which should be a main staple or expertise of beekeepers is almost nonexistent. It is one of the fundamental basics of beekeeping, and yet completely ignored by most. Many big operations get every queen they use from the same provider year after year.

But lets also face reality. And part of that is the "agenda" put out by many producers suggesting "a queen is a queen, is a queen!"Heck even some promoting such items as smallcell all but disclaim any benefits to queen selection and propagation. So the "industry" message many times is that queen selection and localized efforts are not worth pursuing.

I look at the bees origins of the different types of bees we have. Some are different by the division of a mountain range, or a geographic area. (Caucasica, Ligustica, Mellifera, Carnica, etc) And native bees here in the U.S. are so numerous by types, with some being confined to a particular valley or floral source.

This leaves me to think that if we did not move any bees for the next hundred years in the U.S., what bees would thrive in some areas, and which would move on. Would all honey bees be the same throughout the states? I say no. Just as honey bees are not all the same in a much smaller area they came from, mainly being Europe.

With few exceptions, there is no real breeding efforts, beyond the terms and advertising of every day queens being mass produced and spread around the states. So the true benefits of localized and acclimatized bees is never really fully realized. And I think in many circles, that is just fine and dandy for some.

And I can't even tell you the number of comments, emails, and nasty letters from other beekeepers when I started NSQBA, which focuses on northern breeding efforts and self sustainability. You would of thought that I stole someones first born. So it's not all what we would like to think it is. There are definitely agendas, motives. egos, and efforts, to keep the masses of beekeepers (The 99% so I call them....also known as Hobbyists) right in line with the industry as it sits today. With the pockets of hobbyists paying for larger operations, and being led around like blind sheep. Many like that situation.

So whether it is large producers, or folks pushing ideology and disregarding the benefits of local queen rearing programs, I think it would benefit all beekeepers to get involved with queen rearing in their own local areas. And I'm not talking about state queen rearing programs either, with their own agendas. Don't even get me started on that crap!

Relying on large southern package providers today, does not mean we should not pick ourselves up by the boots straps and move forward tomorrow.

I'm actually bringing up packages this year. Why? Cause I sell out of nucs in about two weeks once I start taking orders. And I have nobody to pass off orders too. So reality means that without packages, I would have many local beekeepers without bees. I don't blame anybody who bring up packages. I do have a problem with package providers who do nothing BUT bring packages up, and does nothing to  help with efforts to build a more localized bee industry. We can not shut off packages. But we can sure work towards a better program of self sustainability for each and every beekeeper.
Logged

www.bjornapiaries.com
www.pennapic.org
Please Support "National Honey Bee Day"
Northern States Queen Breeders Assoc.  www.nsqba.com
FRAMEshift
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1681


Location: North Carolina


« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2011, 03:55:41 PM »

There's nothing wrong with using Southern packages in the spring..... just don't buy the queens.   Buy all the bees you want and give them your local queen cells to raise their own queens.   It's the genetics that matter.  If you need some warm bee bodies in the spring to build comb, raise brood, and forage, that's fine.
Logged

"You never can tell with bees."  --  Winnie-the-Pooh
Poppi
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 176

Location: Hopelessly Lost


« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2011, 04:15:21 PM »

Now this is a very interesting post...   it's funny, this is my first year beekeeping and I have already discovered if I don't want to order queens from another area, I will have to involve myself with at least rearing my own queens.  I have spoken with some members of the local bee club and no one I can find is raising queens even for their own hives...  hope this post continues...  I have 4 queen rearing books but it would be nice to get hands on...  especially trying grafting...  I do think some of the problem for hobby beeks may be initial cost for necessary equipment.
Logged
BlueBee
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4194

Location: Mid Michigan


« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2011, 06:01:44 PM »

Poppi, raising a few queens for hobbyist needs is quick and simple by just moving some frames of brood (w/eggs) into a new box/nuc and letting the bees do all the work for you (make queen cells, incubate, mate).  Grafting is great if you need more than a few.

I’m not convinced our “Northern queens” are all that special since they’re probably doing a lot of mating with drones from southern packages.  So we start with southern genetics in a new queen raised from an egg (assuming a southern package) and we end with southern genetics when she mates with southern drones from other southern packages.  How is that better than buying queens from controlled mating (dedicated drone hives) in the south?

That said, I do raise my own queens and have been happy with them.  Hopefully they have a few Michigan DNA sequences in them at this point, but who knows.

Maybe the real problem is us Northern beeks haven't gotten proficent enough at keeping our bees alive?
Logged
tefer2
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2172

Location: Kalamazoo,MI


« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2011, 06:18:06 PM »

I started queen rearing my first year into beekeeping, just didn't know it.
Us northern folks have to keep trying new ways to get through each and every winter.
Rap, don't rap. Upper entrances, lower entrances. I'm still searching for just the right setup that will get me through till spring.
Logged
Poppi
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 176

Location: Hopelessly Lost


« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2011, 07:37:15 PM »

Bluebee    I hear ya..     I would try that first just to start a nuc...   I have read and heard lots of things about genetics and breeding for certain traits.   I was interested in VSH queens to requeen my hive that has a bad time with varroa but I was told that trait is recessive so what's the point?  I would have to requeen all the time to maintain brood with the VSH trait...   once a queen here flies out to mate, that changes everything.   I would think the thing to do would be produce locally from desirable stock.  Even then, it seems to me it would be hit or miss...  but it would be interesting...

tefer2...   yeah, I feel for you northern beeks...   at least I don't have to worry so much about winter...  heck, I still have brood coming on...   was 70 F yesterday...   

John
Logged
SEEYA
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 274

Location: USA

Poke a meek dog enough times.........!


« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2011, 10:36:43 PM »

>>I’m not convinced our “Northern queens” are all that special since they’re probably doing a lot of mating with drones from
>>southern packages.

What about all those Southern Drones and Swarms, competing with survivor drones and swarms? Are they degrading the survivor genetics?

>>Without spring packages, 95% of the beginners every year in most parts of the north would probably go without bees.
>>So on one hand, we should be grateful for the southern producers.

  embarassed Oh I wish I was in the land of cotton ...  embarassed

>>I still have brood coming on...   was 70 F yesterday...  

And that's why we will always(?) be buying those Southern Packages  delivery
« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 08:44:44 AM by ray » Logged

Live long and prosper!
Intheswamp
Queen Bee
****
Online Online

Posts: 1430

Location: South Central Alabama - Zone 8A


WWW
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2011, 11:17:57 AM »

<chuckle>  Well, I didn't intend to start a discussion on the need for raising our own queens, but that's ok.  Looks like some good info in spots.

But, really, where would the country be without the southern queen and package producers?  Would the blueberry, almond, apple, orange, vegetable, etc., industries be what they are today without the southern producers?  Would folks so easily find a box of blueberry Pop-Tops, an Almond Joy candy bar on the shelf, or a tomato in the produce bin when they wanted one?  Would there be as large of a variety of breads,  cookies, syrups, fill-in-the-blank...would these industries be smaller?  Living in the USA we are accustomed to eating what a large part of the world considers exotic, luxury foods...vegetables and fruits.  Many populations exist primarily on a grain/legume/meat diet and the vegetables and fruits that we here in the USA take for granted are foreign to them.  Without pollination on corporate/consolidated farms many of these foods would be in less supply, if not absent completely.  We import a lot of fruits and vegetables, but there is still a lot produced here in the states.  Without the queen/package producers would we be more on a grain/legume/meat diet?

So, without a source of mass produced honey bees and queens, which have been products more or less of the southern states for the last many years, what would be different in this country today?  Would our diet be different?  Some of our industries?  What about the losses that have hit honey bees?...tracheal mites, varroar mites, CCD, SHB....without the mass produced bees would the colony populations be up at the levels that they presently are?

True, without shipped bees the local populations would become more adapted to the local area...drones with genetics from other areas would be less of an influence on the locally raised queens...but, could there be enough of them raised to pollinate the dependent crops?  Seems like without large scale producers there would be a large vacuum in the bee world.  So, if there is ingress of African Honey Bees into the southern mix of package/queen bees and people decide to not purchase these from the south...what happens when the honey bee populations are small when the major flows start?...Are we all going to start eating grits, black-eyed peas, and dried talapia for our three squares a day?

Or, are there just as many packages and queens produced elsewhere so that the southern production doesn't matter and I've wasted a lot of electrons typing the above???  I'm just a newbee, after all, that doesn't know what he's talking about.  rolleyes

Just some thoughts to go with the original post....sorry to hijack the thread.  grin

BjorneBee, what's with the "(The 99% so I call them....also known as Hobbyists)" remark?  I'm a hobbyist but far from being akin to the "99%" group. ??  You had some interesting comments...

FRAMEshift, I've thought along those lines of using packages with local queens/cells.  What I've been thinking about is using the packages to build nucs...would a 3# package make a couple of decent nucs?  Three nucs?

BlueBee and tefer2...  I'm with BlueBee, it shouldn't take much $$ to raise a few queens.  I'm looking at the Hopkins/Case method.  The reasons for a small beek to use this method see good.  One thing in studying on raising queens that I think is a central, very important item is uninterrupted feeding of the larvae.  I like the idea that the larvae remain in their original cells with their original royal jelly.  My next choice would be cell punching, but the Hopkins method (for a beek with a few hives) just seems to be more appealing to me.  I've thought about reducing the laying area for the queen or destroying more cells than normally suggested so that fewer queen cells are formed...that will allow the cell builders and nurses to have fewer queen larvae to attend to and thus give better care to and feed better.  I agree that the local drone population can help or hurt the queens productivity and personalities, but if you have a good queen to start with you've got a promising start. Smiley  Having said all of that, many people graft and do well with it and I may try that one day, too...but my first attempt will be the Hopkins method.

ray, don't move down here quiet yet...the new year is bringing us 20F nighttime temps with the high daytime temps in the 40s and 50s (well, that's cold for us! Smiley ...today, in the low 70s)

Ed
Logged

www.beeweather.com 
American blood spilled to protect the freedom and peace of people all over the world.  320,000 USA casualties in WWI, 1,076,000 USA casualties in WWII, 128,000 USA casualties in the Korean War, 211,000 casualties in the Vietnam "conflict", 57,000 USA casualties in "War on Terror".  Benghazi, Libya, 13 USA casualties. These figures don't include 70,000 MIA.  But, the leaders of one political party of the United States of America continue to make the statement..."What difference does it make?".

"We can't expect the American People to jump from Capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving them small doses of Socialism, until they awaken one day to find that they have Communism."..."The press is our chief ideological weapon." - Nikita Khrushchev
greenbtree
Field Bee
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 583


Location: Stone City, Iowa


« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2012, 12:46:06 PM »

I am a second year hobbyist beek.  With luck, maybe someday I will be a sideliner.  Currently, I think it would be very hard to get started without Southern packages.  No one does packages near me, and even nucs are thin on the ground.  I would like to get built up enough to provide nucs to others.  Making queens is easy - it's stopping them from making queens that's the hard part grin  But seriously, my one hive boomed this Spring - the one deep was bursting when I added a second.  They had already kicked over into swarm mode, and the next time I checked there were capped queen cells everywhere.  I got really lucky - they hadn't swarmed yet, so I split them up into four nucs.  But - no honey this year.  It's something I plan on pursuing - if I had access to warm bee bodies, I could have cut out those queen cells and had 20 or so queens.  Here in the North it is hard enough to split and build them up enough to get them through the Winter.  It only takes one exceptionally long Winter to bust you back to the start. Last Winter most beeks had huge losses all across the upper half of the state.  I can see how big honey producers and pollinators just don't want to bother.  On the other hand I am helping a fellow beek down the road from me (talk about the blind leading the blind!) that couldn't even conceive of starting a new hive without getting a package or at least a shipped queen.  When I told her that her one hive was going into Winter in great shape and we could probably split it the next year (she wants more bees for her orchard) she said "You know how to do that?!"  Also, when I got a call for a cut out from some nice people who cared, they said they had called the local ag college for help and were told that feral bees were "worthless".  The mind boggles some times.   

JC

Logged

"Rise again, rise again - though your heart it be broken, or life about to end.  No matter what you've lost, be it a home, a love, a friend, like the Mary Ellen Carter rise again!"
FRAMEshift
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1681


Location: North Carolina


« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2012, 03:02:59 PM »

FRAMEshift, I've thought along those lines of using packages with local queens/cells.  What I've been thinking about is using the packages to build nucs...would a 3# package make a couple of decent nucs?  Three nucs?

Depends on what kind of nuc you want.  A 3lb package will cover about 4 frames.  If these bees are in a southern package, I guess that means it is spring or early summer so you might get 2 nucs out of it IF you have drawn comb and a frame of honey to give them.  If you are starting without drawn comb, I'd stick to one nuc.  And if it's late in the year, I'd make it one nuc with drawn comb and 3 frames of honey.
Logged

"You never can tell with bees."  --  Winnie-the-Pooh
Jim 134
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2231


Location: Hinsdale, New Hampshire 03451 USA


WWW
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2012, 03:26:38 PM »

FRAMEshift, I've thought along those lines of using packages with local queens/cells.  What I've been thinking about is using the packages to build nucs...would a 3# package make a couple of decent nucs?  Three nucs?
Ed

    You can not get “Northern queens” (or cell and 0 to few drones) The same time you can get packages in New Eagland.Just my $0.02


   BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
Logged

"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/
FRAMEshift
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1681


Location: North Carolina


« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2012, 06:23:47 PM »

    You can not get “Northern queens” (or cell and 0 to few drones) The same time you can get packages in New Eagland.Just my $0.02

That's right.  But you can hive a package and then replace the queen as soon as local queen cells and drones are available.
Logged

"You never can tell with bees."  --  Winnie-the-Pooh
Jim 134
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2231


Location: Hinsdale, New Hampshire 03451 USA


WWW
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2012, 08:13:20 PM »

    You can not get “Northern queens” (or cell and 0 to few drones) The same time you can get packages in New Eagland.Just my $0.02

That's right.  But you can hive a package and then replace the queen as soon as local queen cells and drones are available.

And I know beekeepes who have done this replace the queen or do splits and feed,feed feed


    BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
Logged

"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/
Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Beemaster's Beekeeping Ring
Previous | Home | Join | Random | Next
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines | Sitemap Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.425 seconds with 21 queries.

Google visited last this page August 27, 2014, 03:13:24 PM