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Author Topic: Teach someone to fish  (Read 5327 times)
Scadsobees
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« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2011, 10:33:53 PM »

While I'm not sure what you said there, T Beek, the question that popped into my mind was: who's spending all that money at the walmarts,greens, med centers, and the sports stores to keep them in business?

And what are the barriers to employment?  Untrained workforce? No local infrastructure? No nearby transportation?  What is the area doing to market itself to the rest of the world?  Tourism?  Or is there just too many people for the area to support at the desired wages?
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« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2011, 10:57:16 PM »

What is a living wage?

I went into a Wal-mart today to make a purchase. A young, "maybe 25" man waited on me. I pointed to the item I wanted and said. I want a dozen of them. His reply was, " How many do you want? I repeated, a dozen. He looked at me strangely and asked, "How many is that".

Now just how high a wage is this man worth?

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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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kathyp
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« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2011, 12:57:46 AM »

"living wage" is like "fair share".  it's more, but no one seems to know how much more.

wages go up.  prices go up.  at some point, something has to give.  what's giving right now is jobs.  they are either ending or moving.  it shouldn't be a surprise.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
T Beek
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« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2011, 06:06:41 AM »

While I'm not sure what you said there, T Beek, the question that popped into my mind was: who's spending all that money at the walmarts,greens, med centers, and the sports stores to keep them in business?

And what are the barriers to employment?  Untrained workforce? No local infrastructure? No nearby transportation?  What is the area doing to market itself to the rest of the world?  Tourism?  Or is there just too many people for the area to support at the desired wages?

You guessed right.  This area is a tourist destination for many.  The stores, shops, nurseries, most any 'small' biz nearly goes under each year before Spring.  Most survive on the income from 3-4 months of summer.  Nearly everyone I know who hasn't retired works two or three jobs to stay afloat.  Always a toss up who survives and who doesn't. 

Transportation is also an issue, not much 'public transportation' anywhere in rural America.  We do have a HUGE amount of 30 and under in the area, as said, mostly on the Reservation.  We're like many areas of the Country I'm afraid.  Waiting for the 'promise' of better times Undecided Undecided Undecided

thomas
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T Beek
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« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2011, 06:17:16 AM »

A 'living wage' is enough to pay the bills, keep food in the house and go see a movie or out to dinner or bowling once or twice a month.  

Hows that?  

Here's another Hint;  Walmart doesn't come close to providing a 'living wage'.   They provide a 'dependant' (or slave )wage, and as iddee so eloquently explained, 'they/we get what they pay for' shocked.  

A 'living wage' doesn't sound like so much to me, especially when every day I can see all the 'empty' 2nd, 3rd or 4th (or more) homes sitting on the once pristine lakes surrounding my home, most now have for sale signs (good luck).

thomas
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iddee
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« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2011, 07:47:17 AM »

"'they/we get what they pay for"

Tbeek, that is EXACTLY right. If you would take a long look at that statement, you would see the fallacy of most of your posts.

You expect an employer to pay out 100.00 in wages to a man who can only produce 75.00 for the company. That does not add up. An employee has to produce more than just his salary in order for a company to stay afloat. If he can only produce the equal of half a living wage, GUESS WHAT!! He isn't going to earn a living wage.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2011, 09:05:03 AM »

I look at it a bit different iddee, and honestly, I don't believe that you really 'read' my posts, sorry.  

If I pay someone 'less' than what they need to make a living (its not that hard to figure out) then I don't/won't/shouldn't 'expect' as much from them.  However, if I pay them a 'good' or living wage, the bar is set quite a bit higher, don't you think?  I'd much rather have folks that are 'happy' to work for me and thus loyal, as opposed to resentful, unproductive and unhappy.  

BUT as I try to convey repeatedly (not always successful) "That's JUST Me!"  Not trying to convince anyone here. If someone thinks its OK for those at the top to take all the meat and fat for themselves, leaving just the bones to the peeps, well fine.  Good Luck with that.  I'm still doing things differently, OK?

If all we are creating is low paying 'service' type jobs then all we should expect is the same.  Those I know personally who work at the Walmarts of the world, need 'another' source of income to survive.  That could also explain your experience w/ the clerk iddee.  

Perhaps he just got off his 'other' job, or maybe he had to take care of a sick child or relative the night before, while his wife went to work and didn't get any sleep, or was sick himself (w/ no sick leave , because he doesn't get enough hours from Walmart, a typical ploy) who knows?  Just saying iddee, its not always so black and white.  

These things are NEVER so crystal clear or neat and tidy, usually they are much more complicated than we can even imagine, much like the 'perceived' contradictions (fallacy?) mentioned.  I 'could' tell you some stories man:-\ but I'll refrain.

To 'me' there were no contradictions at all, but if there were then it just proves my point.  

Sorry, I'm likely too focused on the BIG picture again.  I really am working on it, no BS.

thomas
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kathyp
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« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2011, 09:17:24 AM »

Quote
Waiting for the 'promise' of better times


ah, well, that explains it.  never knew a better time to come to those who wait.  usually comes to those who WORK.

Quote
Here's another Hint;  Walmart doesn't come close to providing a 'living wage'.   They provide a 'dependant' (or slave )wage, and as iddee so eloquently explained, 'they/we get what they pay for' .  


they pay better than min. wage here.  they also provide graduated benefit packages depending on hours.  pretty much the same as target....but Walmart is not union and that is the reason they have been a target of the left.  

Quote
A 'living wage' is enough to pay the bills, keep food in the house and go see a movie or out to dinner or bowling once or twice a month.  


no one has a right to entertainment.  as for bills, what bills?  the entertainment bills?  the pizza bills?  what food?
having lived will below the poverty level, even in the old days when that actually meant something, "living wage" depends very much on how you live.
if you can't live without the big screen, the satellite TV, the high speed internet, the smart phone......then yes, you will need a higher wage.

the problem is not with the wage.  the problem is with the expectation that you can have stuff and never have to sacrifice to get to the place where you can afford stuff.  
how about this?  if you don't like your wage then get qualified to do something that gives you a better wage!  an no....i don't mean spend years at university.....

 
Quote
However, if I pay them a 'good' or living wage, the bar is set quite a bit higher, don't you think?  I'd much rather have folks that are 'happy' to work for me and thus loyal, as opposed to resentful, unproductive and unhappy. 


that's fine if it's your choice.  you should be able to make that choice based on how your business is doing and the available work force.  the work force is a commodity also, and that's a good thing for the good worker.  he/she gets the better job and you get the better employee.  unions and govt regulations about hiring take that away from both of you.

Quote
Those I know personally who work at the Walmarts of the world, need 'another' source of income to survive

you don't suppose that someone making an entry level job a career choice, might be the problem?  should the employer be responsible for the choices, outside work, of the employee?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #28 on: December 22, 2011, 09:54:27 AM »

How long will a company stay in business if they pay out 1.10 in wages for every dollar their employees produce. It has nothing to do with fairness, equality, or ability to make a living. It all boils down to how much they can produce. If a beehive produces 80 lbs. of excess honey, they cannot consume 81 lbs. over the winter. Guess what, THEY DIE!

That's the way life is. When you ask for more than you produce, it just doesn't work. It doesn't matter what you want, think you should have, or demand. It all boils down to what you produce, and what you do with what you do get.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
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« Reply #29 on: December 22, 2011, 10:00:31 AM »

Sorry kathyp, but sarcasm doesn't come across well on the web, did you not notice the parenthesis around 'promise'?  Some will do or say anything to twist the message, good job.

Minimum wage is a joke, the rich laugh 'heartily' at what we are willing to accept all the time.  Believe me I've seen and heard it plenty over the years.  Remember what I said about preferring the company of poor folks over the rich?

No one has a 'right' to entertainment heh?  Guess I'll just burn all my guitars, books etc... rolleyes, That's a very telling assertion kathyp, considering we are the most entertained (least informed) people on the planet. Sounds like the voice of a 'Nitpicker" to me grin.

That's right!  Its MY choice to treat all people fairly and also ask others to do the same, no one is being forced to as far as I can see.  IMO; treating people fairly is an American thing, but again, that's just me.  Well I guess there are lots of others who feel the same.  Disagree if you want, it won't bother me too much, because I DO UNDERSTAND (that BIG picture I'm always looking at, you know).

If an employer consistently hires less than desirable employees, eventually they will wonder why and make some changes or go out of business.  

People around here at least 'take what they can find' even at a fraction of what was once earned.  Is it different by you?

Qualifications mean little in todays job market.  Most of the Country is over-qualified for the entry level service jobs thrown our way.  People take them because it beats the alternative.

thomas 
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 10:11:49 AM by T Beek » Logged

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« Reply #30 on: December 22, 2011, 10:13:51 AM »

why build new factories here and build something that is already being made cheaper in other countries and sold at your local walmart ?

the problem is a vicious circle. people are trying to be frugal so they buy things cheaper at places like walmart which gets probably 99% of their "merchandise" from china. nobody buys anything "made in U.S.A. " anymore because it either costs more or takes longer to get it because it has to ship from somewhere, or it just doesn't exist. this forces companies to move overseas in order to compete and be productive. this will only end when, one by one, the very last of all the third world nations finally becomes an economic power and America becomes the cheapest place to get things made again, this may take a few years though.

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T Beek
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« Reply #31 on: December 22, 2011, 10:20:20 AM »

I'd rather pay more (and not have to replace it after a year or two) for quality American made crap and be able to make a complaint or compliment to someone on the other end of the phone who talks like me.  Just ME though Wink

thomas
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Scadsobees
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« Reply #32 on: December 22, 2011, 10:22:02 AM »

Sorry kathyp, but sarcasm doesn't come across well on the web, did you not notice the parenthesis around 'promise'?  Some will do or say anything to twist the message, good job.

A 'Free' Society must step up IMO, even if 'forced' to do so.  That's the 'realist' coming out of me.

Well, then we must agree if that is the case.   Maybe the reason you are misunderstood so much is that you are so sarcastic and we just aren't realizing it. rolleyes

Edit: PS, those aren't parenthesis.  Those are single quotes.  Parenthesis look like ( and ).
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Rick
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« Reply #33 on: December 22, 2011, 10:35:34 AM »

Quote
I'd rather pay more (and not have to replace it after a year or two) for quality American made crap and be able to make a complaint or compliment to someone on the other end of the phone who talks like me.  Just ME though


i absolutely agree with you, but sometimes it is darn near impossible.
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« Reply #34 on: December 22, 2011, 10:48:12 AM »

""No one has a 'right' to entertainment heh?  Guess I'll just burn all my guitars, books etc... rolleyes ""

WHAT?? I thought you had given all that to the first poor, homeless, downtrodden, drunk dopehead you met.

Maybe you don't practice what you preach after all.

Now, THAT is sarcasm!!  evil grin
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Scadsobees
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« Reply #35 on: December 22, 2011, 10:49:17 AM »

I'd rather pay more (and not have to replace it after a year or two) for quality American made crap and be able to make a complaint or compliment to someone on the other end of the phone who talks like me.  Just ME though Wink

thomas

That is actually a very racist thing to say. The people I talk to over there are extremely pleasant and cheerful and willing to help, even if they are occasionally a bit hard to understand.  The few I've spoken with, anyway, not that I call helplines very often.  And if you want quality stuff you can still pay extra for quality stuff made overseas.  

I actually don't mind speaking with an Indian person who is now earning (although less than us) a living wage in India and improving their family life and bringing their society to a higher plane.  Why shouldn't they have jobs?  Shouldn't we americans sacrifice a few of our jobs to bring the rest of the world a little of the joys and dreams we've realized over the past few decades?  Shouldn't we suffer a little bit of what they've suffered in spades?

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« Reply #36 on: December 22, 2011, 12:47:34 PM »

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No one has a 'right' to entertainment heh?  Guess I'll just burn all my guitars, books etc... , That's a very telling assertion kathyp, considering we are the most entertained (least informed) people on the planet. Sounds like the voice of a 'Nitpicker" to me .

considering entertainment a "right" might explain why we are so uninformed? 

you may consider it nitpicking, but words have meaning.  if what you say is not what you mean, how are we to understand you?  BTW....entertainment need not cost money. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #37 on: December 22, 2011, 05:13:31 PM »

What is a living wage?

I went into a Wal-mart today to make a purchase. A young, "maybe 25" man waited on me. I pointed to the item I wanted and said. I want a dozen of them. His reply was, " How many do you want? I repeated, a dozen. He looked at me strangely and asked, "How many is that".

Now just how high a wage is this man worth?


Give him a break maybe he never gathered eggs or eat donuts. grin grin
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