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Author Topic: Teach someone to fish  (Read 5255 times)
SEEYA
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« on: December 20, 2011, 10:13:18 AM »

The old saying; give someone a fish and they will eat fora day, teach someone to fish and they will feed themselves.

The extremely rich have a nice little habit; they build memorials to themselves, wings on libraries, wards on hospitals, halls on college campuses ..etc.. What if they used, just some, of that money to build factories? The world needs inexpensive ________(fill in the blank), it is not being produced, because it can't be made PROFITABLY. ( I know it's just that Social--ist in me ) Just one example; kidney dialysis machine, why can't it be produced at a affordable price? Cut the profit and the money payed to stockholders, build a factory big enough to mass produce them and ....... a machine in every home?

To all you nitpickers out there; you can go after the example and prove nothing (other than its a bad example) or you can discuss the merits of the idea.
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T Beek
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« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2011, 10:19:20 AM »

But Ray, that would mean we'd have a .....a.....a......Forum grin 

Seriously though, I'm right beside you, Man.  I too have struggled w/ nit-pickers and cherry pickers.

thomas
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« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2011, 12:09:39 PM »

The old saying; give someone a fish and they will eat fora day, teach someone to fish and they will feed themselves.

The extremely rich have a nice little habit; they build memorials to themselves, wings on libraries, wards on hospitals, halls on college campuses ..etc.. What if they used, just some, of that money to build factories?
Really??

No Factories?!  You can't be serious.  Oh God you are...
Are you saying Carnegie was useless?

Do you realize you are suggesting a Capitalist endeavor.  Do you mean to or is this a reverse troll?

OH, and to answer your question a big part of 'Why not' is the Federal government and it's Socialist agenda.  That's why not!
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Scadsobees
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« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2011, 12:56:11 PM »

I can't tell if you are being facetious or not, so I'll assume not.  grin

So they shouldn't donate money to the university so that that new addition (while named after them) can be used to teach future doctors?  Or the wing of the hospital where the children are being treated?  The library where the children learn?  To the schools for that new gymnasium?  What about the stadiums that millions use?  Or the nature preserve, the local zoo, or the gardens?

I think they do exactly what you are asking them to do.  The difference is that we have no lack of factories around (and they usually own multiple of them already), so they tend to donate to the arts, humanities, and other basic needs.  So what if it has their name on it?

In our town we have many institutions that were built and sponsored by rich folks, as well as community foundations that they started and maintain that do lots of research.  Simple charities as well as other stuff we need or want.
One, which bears the family name of a prominent very rich family in town, is the Van Andel institute. http://www.vai.org/  Employs very many highly trained researchers.
We have a children's hospital sponsored in large part by a different millionaire family.  There is a huge list of buildings, foundations, charities, that while I think is silly that their name is on it, are very helpful and employ thousands.  All of the prominent billionaires have huge foundations that they maintain that give away billions to various causes every year.

Just listen to NPR and PBS and you'll see <edit..ahem...HEAR! lol > a large list of them.

So you'd rather have another factory than a hospital?
« Last Edit: December 20, 2011, 02:12:06 PM by Scadsobees » Logged

Rick
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« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2011, 12:59:11 PM »

I think this is one reason why the USSR is forever in my mind as a grey cheerless unpleasant place.  The government didn't have time for anything except factories.  Because they had stripped the freedom from people to earn extra money and to do what they want with that money.
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Rick
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« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2011, 01:14:02 PM »

Cut the profit and the money payed to stockholders, build a factory big enough to mass produce them and ....... a machine in every home?

YOU invest in that company first.  It is going to cost a LOT!  Who are you going to get for stockholders?

There are already companies and non-profits that do this, although I'm not sure about factories.  But the nature of the medical business with research, technology, sterility, precision, and liability is that these things are still insanely expensive.
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Rick
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« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2011, 02:31:31 PM »

I live in the woods of North Wisconsin.  There are many more Hospitals (great profits in denying AND providing health care) than factories around here (Bars and Churches are well represented too).  Marshfield recently completed a multimillion dollar project just fifty miles away.  Haven't heard of a factory built in 30 years.

Dollars are available to 'some' local investors but not all.  Health care and snow plows about covers it.  Well, mining seems to be attempting a come back around here.  That will provide a few temp jobs and (b)millions for the 'investors' who don't care what's left behind.

Caterpillar still makes tractors in America (and they're still a UNION org), shipping up to 70% overseas, out of Peoria, IL.  An American success story, so far.  The owners, employees and Union all still 'talk to each other' and are willing to do what is necessary to succeed and stay in America, open communication being the key.

Most 'medical research' costs are absorbed by consumers in the long run (see Lipitor), but even in the short run, little cash is laid out by the developer initially.  The process is relatively risk free for BIG PHARMA and what costs are incurred are covered under 'loopholes for the powerful' tax code.  It is us that are always left hanging out to dry and w/ little to show for it. 

Health 'Care' is mostly a joke in a system motivated by 'only' profit.  Profit made by people who don't provide health care, but instead find ways to deny it so they can make more.......profit. 

The folks running these companies do not 'earn' the money reaped and certainly have worked no harder than any 'real' healthcare professional ever has.  They make their money by rigging the system against us.

The Health Care field is a perfect example of an "out of Balance' system, where those providing actual care do less well economically than those providing 'nothing.'  That discribes a 'sick' system IMO.

IMO; All Americans should have to use a health care system like the VA, especially since Vets get the best in America:roll:.............riiiight.  Lets start w/ Congress.  See you there grin

thomas
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SEEYA
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« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2011, 02:35:30 PM »

Here goes, I am not saying the hospitals, universities, museums,etc were a waste of money. They are 'giving a person a fish dinner'
Medical supplies are GENERALLY, way over priced compared to similar products. High costs cause minimal use = minimal use causes less demand = less demand causes high cost.
I am saying use a LITTLE of the money donated - to fund factories, to make work - Teaching a person to fish.
Then they can AFFORD to utilize the hospitals, museums, and colleges.

Scadsobees : I am not being facetious.(had to get out the old Funk & Wagnals)

>>So you'd rather have another factory than a hospital?
If I had a job that payed a living wage (with health insurance) and I needed to go to a Hospital?
If I NEEDED a job that payed a living wage (with health insurance)?
I am suggesting that WITHOUT the drive for profits ( and dividends) and with the philanthropy of some of our super rich, there are products out there, that are not being produced (or under-produced), that could be produced on a large enough scale, to provide good jobs and an inexpensive product for 'the masses'

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« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2011, 03:14:32 PM »

I live in the woods of North Wisconsin.  There are many more Hospitals (great profits in denying AND providing health care) than factories around here (Bars and Churches are well represented too).  Marshfield recently completed a multimillion dollar project just fifty miles away.  Haven't heard of a factory built in 30 years.


Any good reason to put a factory there?  Close to the consumers of the products?  Close to a nearby transportation hub?  Reliable, knowledgeable employees readily available at affordable wages?

We recently built a factory.  We had a customer in the south demanding that we build close to them or lose that business, and we couldn't afford that.  So after a lot of planning we looked at that customer, nearby highways, nearby potential customers, and the cities in the area, and after a lot of planning chose one that fit our needs.  That new factory has been doing wonderful for us.  But we did it based on need.  If it couldn't fit our needs, it would fail.  In suceeding it has done well for the area too.

In theory it sounds nice, but if you just throw up a factory because an area needs employment, you've created a fish dinner for that area as well as a factory that will fail.

I think, too, that you underestimate the amount of money it costs to run a factory.  Setup costs (buildings) are the least of it.  If the products don't sell at at least a break even point, that salary money, raw materials, and research will suck a charity foundation dry very soon.  And if the products sell for too cheaply, the competitor will be put out of business creating a void elsewhere and a net employment effect of zero.  And when both the new factory and the competitor are out of business....then there's no product.

This is interesting:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/health/coral-snake-antivenom-crisis
The government gives 1.6 Million for this as a grant, and that only covers a study, not the final study or the approval process for a different antivenom manufacturer.  I think it highlights just a few of the staggering costs associated with medical approvals, and the difficulty obtaining that.
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Rick
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« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2011, 07:28:17 PM »

Here goes, I am not saying the hospitals, universities, museums,etc were a waste of money. They are 'giving a person a fish dinner'
NO! They are learning facilities.  (Teaching to fish)

Medical supplies are GENERALLY, way over priced compared to similar products.
What like the EKG machines at a walmart? 
To counter; Medical stuff costs more because there are NO market pressures keeping the cost down.  That one of the big problems caused by insurance.  Supply becomes unrelated to demand. 

I am saying use a LITTLE of the money donated - to fund factories, to make work
THIS makes my head hurt!
It's called INVESTING.  You see, you invent & produce a better widget.  INVESTORS give you funds to build your widget in a new FACTORY.  Your widget is so good that it owns the market putting other widget producers out of business.  The dividends from your profit are used to repay the INVESTORS.  The remainder goes to you.  You reinvest a bunch of your money back into the widget and make different lines of widgets.  "Occupy" finds out you made money and protests on your front lawn because you didn't give any money to the local library....

I am suggesting that WITHOUT the drive for profits ( and dividends) and with the philanthropy of some of our super rich, there are products out there, that are not being produced (or under-produced), that could be produced on a large enough scale, to provide good jobs and an inexpensive product for 'the masses'
If you want to live in a centralized PLANED economy then move to China or North Korea (I hear they have a job opening) and leave freedom to those of us that don't need Funk & Wagnalls to understand it.  Please.


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SEEYA
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« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2011, 10:58:50 PM »

>>THIS makes my head hurt!

>>If you want to live in a centralized PLANED economy then move to China or North Korea (I hear they have a job opening) and leave >>freedom to those of us that don't need Funk & Wagnalls to understand it.  Please.

 I don't remember Attacking you or your opinions. I REALLY DON'T REMEMBER INSULTING YOU. WOULD IT BE POSSIBLE? TO RETURN THE FAVOR?HuhHuhHuh??
« Last Edit: December 20, 2011, 11:09:40 PM by ray » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2011, 12:03:32 AM »

i'll even bring this down to a personal level.  i do national disaster relief for red cross.  who do you think has the time to take off for weeks at a time to help other people?  who do you think donates the money to make our work possible?  why do you think we do this?  because we like sleeping on church floors, working 14 hours a day in the heat or cold, etc? 

nasty rich people who donate to what THEY feel are good causes.  what on earth are they thinking?  they should be happy to turn their money over to the govt so that it can decide what is needed and what is not.  after all, the government has such a good record!

http://www.coburn.senate.gov/public/6946d43b-bccf-4579-990e-15a763532b40.html

from here, you can download the whole .pdf if you wish.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2011, 12:32:40 AM »

I am not condemning the good the rich do in this country. I didn't mention government doing anything in this post. Thank you for your work in the Red Cross. What I was suggesting was a discussion on a different direction of philanthropy, nothing more. I didn't say it should be government mandated or government taxed or demand that it be built in an unwise location.

Sorry my internet connection is too slow. I generally don't even attempt to try links.

Some of the replies to this post have me bewildered, I can't see anything that would cause so much angst.


Scadsobees: That's one of our problems, Lake Michigan sure is pretty, and pretty expensive to ship anything around her too.
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« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2011, 12:36:42 AM »

When "I" insult you ray; older computers will burst into flame by the content alone AND I will receive a life-long BAN lasting to the seventh son of my seventh son!

Moreover, when someone calls you out because of what you said i recommend you defend your position instead calling foul hoping to get them Red Carded.  Unless you have nothing to stand on...?  Like the whole 'Bake sale to fund a new factory' thing (Which establishes one dominant fact; you do not know where a dollar has been before you earn it nor where it goes after you spend it).

These days I Pull my punches when talking to fellow Beeks. I think we're better than everyone else and so take it easy.  If what i said bothers you i am sorry BUT i suggest you stay FAR away from political discourse over the next year and take an economics class at the local community college (that's probably named after a rich person who paid to have it built so people can learn to fish.....GET IT!). 

Do what you want but if that seemed harsh you haven't seen ANYTHING. 

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« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2011, 08:27:06 AM »

I am not condemning the good the rich do in this country. I didn't mention government doing anything in this post. Thank you for your work in the Red Cross. What I was suggesting was a discussion on a different direction of philanthropy, nothing more. I didn't say it should be government mandated or government taxed or demand that it be built in an unwise location.
I think that you'd find that for the last couple of years there were a lot of rich people pouring money into their factories without a lot of payback.  More than you'd think.  But 100 million won't last long when the $1B company is tanking.

Quote
Some of the replies to this post have me bewildered, I can't see anything that would cause so much angst.
You mentioned your Social-ist tendencies.  rolleyes  It hasn't been that long since the iron curtain fell.  Just long enough for a lot of people to forget, I guess.

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Rick
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« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2011, 09:35:22 AM »

>>take an economics class at the local community college
>> You see, you invent & produce a better widget.  INVESTORS give you funds to build your widget in a new FACTORY.  Your widget is so good that it owns the market putting other widget producers out of business.  The dividends from your profit are used to repay the INVESTORS.  The remainder goes to you.  You reinvest a bunch of your money back into the widget and make different lines of widgets.  "Occupy" finds out you made money and protests on your front lawn because you didn't give any money to the local library....
A little oversimplified, isn't it? Here is my version.
Widget manufacturing;
Using your near brilliant engineering skills, you design a world class widget. Mass production requires a factory, automated machinery, skilled workers Adan infrastructure. Using your near brilliant marketing skills, you gather the tens of millions of dollars to mass produce this widget. The investors wind up with only 49% of your company. The world class widget is selling fairly good, but not good enough, you need a big merchandiser. You need Wallyworld. Wallyworld only wants; a huge "stocking fee' plus a 'shelf use' agreement, and a 20% discount on your price. Life is good. Profitability is just around the corner.  OH NO!  The Chinese start production of a WOOJET and there selling price here is half of what it costs you to produce it. Any help from the WTO or even your government it probably years away. You cut your workers benefits and their wages, your best and brightest are jumping ship. Morale is in the crapper and quality is suffering. Stockholder are grumbling, they want a bigger return on their investment. You close the shop, file bankruptcy and license a different Chinese firm to produce you widget. Your hometown tears down the statue that they built for you and your name is now proceded by a expletive. evil

>>If you want to live in a centralized PLANED economy then move to China or North Korea (I hear they have a job opening) and leave freedom to those of us that don't need Funk & Wagnalls to understand it.  Please.
Your way or the Highway. NOT MY DEFINITION 0F FREEDOM rolleyes

>>These days I Pull my punches when talking to fellow Beeks.
A civil discussion on an intellectual level doesn't use punching or invectives.
( I used Merriam - Webster to look up these words) grin

You mentioned your Social-ist tendencies.
Scadsobees: I was trying for a little levity, a play on the word. The closest thing to socialism in the present world is probably Denmark(?). China and even Cuba are moving away from their version. Not even the Chinese know whats happening in North Korea.

>>In theory it sounds nice, but if you just throw up a factory because an area needs employment, you've created a fish dinner for that >>area as well as a factory that will fail.

>>I think, too, that you underestimate the amount of money it costs to run a factory.  Setup costs (buildings) are the least of it.  If the >>products don't sell at at least a break even point, that salary money, raw materials, and research will suck a charity foundation dry >>very soon.  And if the products sell for too cheaply, the competitor will be put out of business creating a void elsewhere and a net >>employment effect of zero.  And when both the new factory and the competitor are out of business....then there's no product

Thanks for the input. That is a major concern.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2011, 10:04:08 AM by ray » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2011, 10:12:53 AM »

ray, i'm not sure it was you specifically.  it's the idea that some seem to have that the wealthy have an obligation to do more.

they may feel a moral obligation to give.  that is between them and their conscience/god.  i don't know anyone who is wealthy and doesn't give to something they feel is worthy.

where the conservatives (not rich, most of us)  get ticked off, is when there is a suggestion (demand) that the moral obligation is fact, and so the rich should do this, or that, or be forced by the government to do more.  there is always the implication that those who are wealthy obviously "stole" from the poor and need to be punished for that theft.

never is it brought up that it is morally wrong to take what one person has earned and give it to another.  never is it pointed out that it is morally wrong to not work, not support your family, not control your procreation, etc.  if i, as a private citizen, took money from you and gave it to another because i thought they needed it more than you do, i'd be arrested for theft.  yet, we allow the government to do this and call it  welfare.

the wealthy don't owe the rest of us anything.  they owe the same % of their income...which would end up being more dollars anyway, for the services that we have decided we need. for the feds, that should come to very little as they are constitutionally tasked with little.  for the states...that's up to the voters.

beyond that, the rich owe to society what they wish to contribute.  no more, no less.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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SEEYA
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« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2011, 10:43:59 AM »

>>never is it brought up that it is morally wrong to take what one person has earned and give it to another.  never is it pointed out that it >>is morally wrong to not work, not support your family, not control your procreation, etc.  if i, as a private citizen, took money from you >>and gave it to another because i thought they needed it more than you do, i'd be arrested for theft.  yet, we allow the government to >>do this and call it  welfare.

Jared Diamond - Guns, Germs and Steel, calls it Kleptocracy.
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« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2011, 11:50:45 AM »

>>If you want to live in a centralized PLANED economy then move to China or North Korea (I hear they have a job opening) and leave freedom to those of us that don't need Funk & Wagnalls to understand it.  Please.


There is no need to move to China or North Korea to live in a centralized economy just get comfortable right here in the United States. We already have our foot in the door and it's opening wider with ever policy that comes out of the White House. You can probably think of your own examples.
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« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2011, 04:05:49 PM »

In reply to scads; yes, my County has the 2nd or 3rd highest unemployment rate in the State of Wisconsin (I think the LCO Reservation alone has a rate of 40% for those under thirty), so we've certainly got an available workforce. 

While there seems to be lots of dough available for Wal-marts, Wallgreens, Medical Centers, a new 'Sporting' goods store (can't remember the name) opening in the Spring, there's little in the way of 'living wage' employment, with the exception of a struggling LP plant, the above mentioned Retail employment, the Tribal Government (one of our biggest employers) which adheres to federal prevailing wage standards and remain out from under our Governor's Boot Heel, or Municipal/County Public Service jobs that 'are' under our Governors boot heel.  Most are Jobs no one ever enters  into because they think they might get rich, but jobs that would be sorely missed by the citizens demanding and/or depending on the service.

Amazing hey?  Who would've thought it would be Tribes 'setting' the exampled 'high bar of wage standards' in Northern Wisconsin?  Talk about KARMA cool

thomas
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