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Author Topic: Teach someone to fish  (Read 4547 times)
SEEYA
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« on: December 20, 2011, 10:13:18 AM »

The old saying; give someone a fish and they will eat fora day, teach someone to fish and they will feed themselves.

The extremely rich have a nice little habit; they build memorials to themselves, wings on libraries, wards on hospitals, halls on college campuses ..etc.. What if they used, just some, of that money to build factories? The world needs inexpensive ________(fill in the blank), it is not being produced, because it can't be made PROFITABLY. ( I know it's just that Social--ist in me ) Just one example; kidney dialysis machine, why can't it be produced at a affordable price? Cut the profit and the money payed to stockholders, build a factory big enough to mass produce them and ....... a machine in every home?

To all you nitpickers out there; you can go after the example and prove nothing (other than its a bad example) or you can discuss the merits of the idea.
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T Beek
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« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2011, 10:19:20 AM »

But Ray, that would mean we'd have a .....a.....a......Forum grin 

Seriously though, I'm right beside you, Man.  I too have struggled w/ nit-pickers and cherry pickers.

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« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2011, 12:09:39 PM »

The old saying; give someone a fish and they will eat fora day, teach someone to fish and they will feed themselves.

The extremely rich have a nice little habit; they build memorials to themselves, wings on libraries, wards on hospitals, halls on college campuses ..etc.. What if they used, just some, of that money to build factories?
Really??

No Factories?!  You can't be serious.  Oh God you are...
Are you saying Carnegie was useless?

Do you realize you are suggesting a Capitalist endeavor.  Do you mean to or is this a reverse troll?

OH, and to answer your question a big part of 'Why not' is the Federal government and it's Socialist agenda.  That's why not!
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Scadsobees
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« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2011, 12:56:11 PM »

I can't tell if you are being facetious or not, so I'll assume not.  grin

So they shouldn't donate money to the university so that that new addition (while named after them) can be used to teach future doctors?  Or the wing of the hospital where the children are being treated?  The library where the children learn?  To the schools for that new gymnasium?  What about the stadiums that millions use?  Or the nature preserve, the local zoo, or the gardens?

I think they do exactly what you are asking them to do.  The difference is that we have no lack of factories around (and they usually own multiple of them already), so they tend to donate to the arts, humanities, and other basic needs.  So what if it has their name on it?

In our town we have many institutions that were built and sponsored by rich folks, as well as community foundations that they started and maintain that do lots of research.  Simple charities as well as other stuff we need or want.
One, which bears the family name of a prominent very rich family in town, is the Van Andel institute. http://www.vai.org/  Employs very many highly trained researchers.
We have a children's hospital sponsored in large part by a different millionaire family.  There is a huge list of buildings, foundations, charities, that while I think is silly that their name is on it, are very helpful and employ thousands.  All of the prominent billionaires have huge foundations that they maintain that give away billions to various causes every year.

Just listen to NPR and PBS and you'll see <edit..ahem...HEAR! lol > a large list of them.

So you'd rather have another factory than a hospital?
« Last Edit: December 20, 2011, 02:12:06 PM by Scadsobees » Logged

Rick
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« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2011, 12:59:11 PM »

I think this is one reason why the USSR is forever in my mind as a grey cheerless unpleasant place.  The government didn't have time for anything except factories.  Because they had stripped the freedom from people to earn extra money and to do what they want with that money.
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Rick
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« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2011, 01:14:02 PM »

Cut the profit and the money payed to stockholders, build a factory big enough to mass produce them and ....... a machine in every home?

YOU invest in that company first.  It is going to cost a LOT!  Who are you going to get for stockholders?

There are already companies and non-profits that do this, although I'm not sure about factories.  But the nature of the medical business with research, technology, sterility, precision, and liability is that these things are still insanely expensive.
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Rick
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« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2011, 02:31:31 PM »

I live in the woods of North Wisconsin.  There are many more Hospitals (great profits in denying AND providing health care) than factories around here (Bars and Churches are well represented too).  Marshfield recently completed a multimillion dollar project just fifty miles away.  Haven't heard of a factory built in 30 years.

Dollars are available to 'some' local investors but not all.  Health care and snow plows about covers it.  Well, mining seems to be attempting a come back around here.  That will provide a few temp jobs and (b)millions for the 'investors' who don't care what's left behind.

Caterpillar still makes tractors in America (and they're still a UNION org), shipping up to 70% overseas, out of Peoria, IL.  An American success story, so far.  The owners, employees and Union all still 'talk to each other' and are willing to do what is necessary to succeed and stay in America, open communication being the key.

Most 'medical research' costs are absorbed by consumers in the long run (see Lipitor), but even in the short run, little cash is laid out by the developer initially.  The process is relatively risk free for BIG PHARMA and what costs are incurred are covered under 'loopholes for the powerful' tax code.  It is us that are always left hanging out to dry and w/ little to show for it. 

Health 'Care' is mostly a joke in a system motivated by 'only' profit.  Profit made by people who don't provide health care, but instead find ways to deny it so they can make more.......profit. 

The folks running these companies do not 'earn' the money reaped and certainly have worked no harder than any 'real' healthcare professional ever has.  They make their money by rigging the system against us.

The Health Care field is a perfect example of an "out of Balance' system, where those providing actual care do less well economically than those providing 'nothing.'  That discribes a 'sick' system IMO.

IMO; All Americans should have to use a health care system like the VA, especially since Vets get the best in America:roll:.............riiiight.  Lets start w/ Congress.  See you there grin

thomas
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SEEYA
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« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2011, 02:35:30 PM »

Here goes, I am not saying the hospitals, universities, museums,etc were a waste of money. They are 'giving a person a fish dinner'
Medical supplies are GENERALLY, way over priced compared to similar products. High costs cause minimal use = minimal use causes less demand = less demand causes high cost.
I am saying use a LITTLE of the money donated - to fund factories, to make work - Teaching a person to fish.
Then they can AFFORD to utilize the hospitals, museums, and colleges.

Scadsobees : I am not being facetious.(had to get out the old Funk & Wagnals)

>>So you'd rather have another factory than a hospital?
If I had a job that payed a living wage (with health insurance) and I needed to go to a Hospital?
If I NEEDED a job that payed a living wage (with health insurance)?
I am suggesting that WITHOUT the drive for profits ( and dividends) and with the philanthropy of some of our super rich, there are products out there, that are not being produced (or under-produced), that could be produced on a large enough scale, to provide good jobs and an inexpensive product for 'the masses'

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« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2011, 03:14:32 PM »

I live in the woods of North Wisconsin.  There are many more Hospitals (great profits in denying AND providing health care) than factories around here (Bars and Churches are well represented too).  Marshfield recently completed a multimillion dollar project just fifty miles away.  Haven't heard of a factory built in 30 years.


Any good reason to put a factory there?  Close to the consumers of the products?  Close to a nearby transportation hub?  Reliable, knowledgeable employees readily available at affordable wages?

We recently built a factory.  We had a customer in the south demanding that we build close to them or lose that business, and we couldn't afford that.  So after a lot of planning we looked at that customer, nearby highways, nearby potential customers, and the cities in the area, and after a lot of planning chose one that fit our needs.  That new factory has been doing wonderful for us.  But we did it based on need.  If it couldn't fit our needs, it would fail.  In suceeding it has done well for the area too.

In theory it sounds nice, but if you just throw up a factory because an area needs employment, you've created a fish dinner for that area as well as a factory that will fail.

I think, too, that you underestimate the amount of money it costs to run a factory.  Setup costs (buildings) are the least of it.  If the products don't sell at at least a break even point, that salary money, raw materials, and research will suck a charity foundation dry very soon.  And if the products sell for too cheaply, the competitor will be put out of business creating a void elsewhere and a net employment effect of zero.  And when both the new factory and the competitor are out of business....then there's no product.

This is interesting:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/health/coral-snake-antivenom-crisis
The government gives 1.6 Million for this as a grant, and that only covers a study, not the final study or the approval process for a different antivenom manufacturer.  I think it highlights just a few of the staggering costs associated with medical approvals, and the difficulty obtaining that.
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Rick
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« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2011, 07:28:17 PM »

Here goes, I am not saying the hospitals, universities, museums,etc were a waste of money. They are 'giving a person a fish dinner'
NO! They are learning facilities.  (Teaching to fish)

Medical supplies are GENERALLY, way over priced compared to similar products.
What like the EKG machines at a walmart? 
To counter; Medical stuff costs more because there are NO market pressures keeping the cost down.  That one of the big problems caused by insurance.  Supply becomes unrelated to demand. 

I am saying use a LITTLE of the money donated - to fund factories, to make work
THIS makes my head hurt!
It's called INVESTING.  You see, you invent & produce a better widget.  INVESTORS give you funds to build your widget in a new FACTORY.  Your widget is so good that it owns the market putting other widget producers out of business.  The dividends from your profit are used to repay the INVESTORS.  The remainder goes to you.  You reinvest a bunch of your money back into the widget and make different lines of widgets.  "Occupy" finds out you made money and protests on your front lawn because you didn't give any money to the local library....

I am suggesting that WITHOUT the drive for profits ( and dividends) and with the philanthropy of some of our super rich, there are products out there, that are not being produced (or under-produced), that could be produced on a large enough scale, to provide good jobs and an inexpensive product for 'the masses'
If you want to live in a centralized PLANED economy then move to China or North Korea (I hear they have a job opening) and leave freedom to those of us that don't need Funk & Wagnalls to understand it.  Please.


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« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2011, 10:58:50 PM »

>>THIS makes my head hurt!

>>If you want to live in a centralized PLANED economy then move to China or North Korea (I hear they have a job opening) and leave >>freedom to those of us that don't need Funk & Wagnalls to understand it.  Please.

 I don't remember Attacking you or your opinions. I REALLY DON'T REMEMBER INSULTING YOU. WOULD IT BE POSSIBLE? TO RETURN THE FAVOR?HuhHuhHuh??
« Last Edit: December 20, 2011, 11:09:40 PM by ray » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2011, 12:03:32 AM »

i'll even bring this down to a personal level.  i do national disaster relief for red cross.  who do you think has the time to take off for weeks at a time to help other people?  who do you think donates the money to make our work possible?  why do you think we do this?  because we like sleeping on church floors, working 14 hours a day in the heat or cold, etc? 

nasty rich people who donate to what THEY feel are good causes.  what on earth are they thinking?  they should be happy to turn their money over to the govt so that it can decide what is needed and what is not.  after all, the government has such a good record!

http://www.coburn.senate.gov/public/6946d43b-bccf-4579-990e-15a763532b40.html

from here, you can download the whole .pdf if you wish.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2011, 12:32:40 AM »

I am not condemning the good the rich do in this country. I didn't mention government doing anything in this post. Thank you for your work in the Red Cross. What I was suggesting was a discussion on a different direction of philanthropy, nothing more. I didn't say it should be government mandated or government taxed or demand that it be built in an unwise location.

Sorry my internet connection is too slow. I generally don't even attempt to try links.

Some of the replies to this post have me bewildered, I can't see anything that would cause so much angst.


Scadsobees: That's one of our problems, Lake Michigan sure is pretty, and pretty expensive to ship anything around her too.
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« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2011, 12:36:42 AM »

When "I" insult you ray; older computers will burst into flame by the content alone AND I will receive a life-long BAN lasting to the seventh son of my seventh son!

Moreover, when someone calls you out because of what you said i recommend you defend your position instead calling foul hoping to get them Red Carded.  Unless you have nothing to stand on...?  Like the whole 'Bake sale to fund a new factory' thing (Which establishes one dominant fact; you do not know where a dollar has been before you earn it nor where it goes after you spend it).

These days I Pull my punches when talking to fellow Beeks. I think we're better than everyone else and so take it easy.  If what i said bothers you i am sorry BUT i suggest you stay FAR away from political discourse over the next year and take an economics class at the local community college (that's probably named after a rich person who paid to have it built so people can learn to fish.....GET IT!). 

Do what you want but if that seemed harsh you haven't seen ANYTHING. 

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« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2011, 08:27:06 AM »

I am not condemning the good the rich do in this country. I didn't mention government doing anything in this post. Thank you for your work in the Red Cross. What I was suggesting was a discussion on a different direction of philanthropy, nothing more. I didn't say it should be government mandated or government taxed or demand that it be built in an unwise location.
I think that you'd find that for the last couple of years there were a lot of rich people pouring money into their factories without a lot of payback.  More than you'd think.  But 100 million won't last long when the $1B company is tanking.

Quote
Some of the replies to this post have me bewildered, I can't see anything that would cause so much angst.
You mentioned your Social-ist tendencies.  rolleyes  It hasn't been that long since the iron curtain fell.  Just long enough for a lot of people to forget, I guess.

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« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2011, 09:35:22 AM »

>>take an economics class at the local community college
>> You see, you invent & produce a better widget.  INVESTORS give you funds to build your widget in a new FACTORY.  Your widget is so good that it owns the market putting other widget producers out of business.  The dividends from your profit are used to repay the INVESTORS.  The remainder goes to you.  You reinvest a bunch of your money back into the widget and make different lines of widgets.  "Occupy" finds out you made money and protests on your front lawn because you didn't give any money to the local library....
A little oversimplified, isn't it? Here is my version.
Widget manufacturing;
Using your near brilliant engineering skills, you design a world class widget. Mass production requires a factory, automated machinery, skilled workers Adan infrastructure. Using your near brilliant marketing skills, you gather the tens of millions of dollars to mass produce this widget. The investors wind up with only 49% of your company. The world class widget is selling fairly good, but not good enough, you need a big merchandiser. You need Wallyworld. Wallyworld only wants; a huge "stocking fee' plus a 'shelf use' agreement, and a 20% discount on your price. Life is good. Profitability is just around the corner.  OH NO!  The Chinese start production of a WOOJET and there selling price here is half of what it costs you to produce it. Any help from the WTO or even your government it probably years away. You cut your workers benefits and their wages, your best and brightest are jumping ship. Morale is in the crapper and quality is suffering. Stockholder are grumbling, they want a bigger return on their investment. You close the shop, file bankruptcy and license a different Chinese firm to produce you widget. Your hometown tears down the statue that they built for you and your name is now proceded by a expletive. evil

>>If you want to live in a centralized PLANED economy then move to China or North Korea (I hear they have a job opening) and leave freedom to those of us that don't need Funk & Wagnalls to understand it.  Please.
Your way or the Highway. NOT MY DEFINITION 0F FREEDOM rolleyes

>>These days I Pull my punches when talking to fellow Beeks.
A civil discussion on an intellectual level doesn't use punching or invectives.
( I used Merriam - Webster to look up these words) grin

You mentioned your Social-ist tendencies.
Scadsobees: I was trying for a little levity, a play on the word. The closest thing to socialism in the present world is probably Denmark(?). China and even Cuba are moving away from their version. Not even the Chinese know whats happening in North Korea.

>>In theory it sounds nice, but if you just throw up a factory because an area needs employment, you've created a fish dinner for that >>area as well as a factory that will fail.

>>I think, too, that you underestimate the amount of money it costs to run a factory.  Setup costs (buildings) are the least of it.  If the >>products don't sell at at least a break even point, that salary money, raw materials, and research will suck a charity foundation dry >>very soon.  And if the products sell for too cheaply, the competitor will be put out of business creating a void elsewhere and a net >>employment effect of zero.  And when both the new factory and the competitor are out of business....then there's no product

Thanks for the input. That is a major concern.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2011, 10:04:08 AM by ray » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2011, 10:12:53 AM »

ray, i'm not sure it was you specifically.  it's the idea that some seem to have that the wealthy have an obligation to do more.

they may feel a moral obligation to give.  that is between them and their conscience/god.  i don't know anyone who is wealthy and doesn't give to something they feel is worthy.

where the conservatives (not rich, most of us)  get ticked off, is when there is a suggestion (demand) that the moral obligation is fact, and so the rich should do this, or that, or be forced by the government to do more.  there is always the implication that those who are wealthy obviously "stole" from the poor and need to be punished for that theft.

never is it brought up that it is morally wrong to take what one person has earned and give it to another.  never is it pointed out that it is morally wrong to not work, not support your family, not control your procreation, etc.  if i, as a private citizen, took money from you and gave it to another because i thought they needed it more than you do, i'd be arrested for theft.  yet, we allow the government to do this and call it  welfare.

the wealthy don't owe the rest of us anything.  they owe the same % of their income...which would end up being more dollars anyway, for the services that we have decided we need. for the feds, that should come to very little as they are constitutionally tasked with little.  for the states...that's up to the voters.

beyond that, the rich owe to society what they wish to contribute.  no more, no less.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2011, 10:43:59 AM »

>>never is it brought up that it is morally wrong to take what one person has earned and give it to another.  never is it pointed out that it >>is morally wrong to not work, not support your family, not control your procreation, etc.  if i, as a private citizen, took money from you >>and gave it to another because i thought they needed it more than you do, i'd be arrested for theft.  yet, we allow the government to >>do this and call it  welfare.

Jared Diamond - Guns, Germs and Steel, calls it Kleptocracy.
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« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2011, 11:50:45 AM »

>>If you want to live in a centralized PLANED economy then move to China or North Korea (I hear they have a job opening) and leave freedom to those of us that don't need Funk & Wagnalls to understand it.  Please.


There is no need to move to China or North Korea to live in a centralized economy just get comfortable right here in the United States. We already have our foot in the door and it's opening wider with ever policy that comes out of the White House. You can probably think of your own examples.
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« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2011, 04:05:49 PM »

In reply to scads; yes, my County has the 2nd or 3rd highest unemployment rate in the State of Wisconsin (I think the LCO Reservation alone has a rate of 40% for those under thirty), so we've certainly got an available workforce. 

While there seems to be lots of dough available for Wal-marts, Wallgreens, Medical Centers, a new 'Sporting' goods store (can't remember the name) opening in the Spring, there's little in the way of 'living wage' employment, with the exception of a struggling LP plant, the above mentioned Retail employment, the Tribal Government (one of our biggest employers) which adheres to federal prevailing wage standards and remain out from under our Governor's Boot Heel, or Municipal/County Public Service jobs that 'are' under our Governors boot heel.  Most are Jobs no one ever enters  into because they think they might get rich, but jobs that would be sorely missed by the citizens demanding and/or depending on the service.

Amazing hey?  Who would've thought it would be Tribes 'setting' the exampled 'high bar of wage standards' in Northern Wisconsin?  Talk about KARMA cool

thomas
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« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2011, 10:33:53 PM »

While I'm not sure what you said there, T Beek, the question that popped into my mind was: who's spending all that money at the walmarts,greens, med centers, and the sports stores to keep them in business?

And what are the barriers to employment?  Untrained workforce? No local infrastructure? No nearby transportation?  What is the area doing to market itself to the rest of the world?  Tourism?  Or is there just too many people for the area to support at the desired wages?
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« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2011, 10:57:16 PM »

What is a living wage?

I went into a Wal-mart today to make a purchase. A young, "maybe 25" man waited on me. I pointed to the item I wanted and said. I want a dozen of them. His reply was, " How many do you want? I repeated, a dozen. He looked at me strangely and asked, "How many is that".

Now just how high a wage is this man worth?

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« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2011, 12:57:46 AM »

"living wage" is like "fair share".  it's more, but no one seems to know how much more.

wages go up.  prices go up.  at some point, something has to give.  what's giving right now is jobs.  they are either ending or moving.  it shouldn't be a surprise.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2011, 06:06:41 AM »

While I'm not sure what you said there, T Beek, the question that popped into my mind was: who's spending all that money at the walmarts,greens, med centers, and the sports stores to keep them in business?

And what are the barriers to employment?  Untrained workforce? No local infrastructure? No nearby transportation?  What is the area doing to market itself to the rest of the world?  Tourism?  Or is there just too many people for the area to support at the desired wages?

You guessed right.  This area is a tourist destination for many.  The stores, shops, nurseries, most any 'small' biz nearly goes under each year before Spring.  Most survive on the income from 3-4 months of summer.  Nearly everyone I know who hasn't retired works two or three jobs to stay afloat.  Always a toss up who survives and who doesn't. 

Transportation is also an issue, not much 'public transportation' anywhere in rural America.  We do have a HUGE amount of 30 and under in the area, as said, mostly on the Reservation.  We're like many areas of the Country I'm afraid.  Waiting for the 'promise' of better times Undecided Undecided Undecided

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« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2011, 06:17:16 AM »

A 'living wage' is enough to pay the bills, keep food in the house and go see a movie or out to dinner or bowling once or twice a month.  

Hows that?  

Here's another Hint;  Walmart doesn't come close to providing a 'living wage'.   They provide a 'dependant' (or slave )wage, and as iddee so eloquently explained, 'they/we get what they pay for' shocked.  

A 'living wage' doesn't sound like so much to me, especially when every day I can see all the 'empty' 2nd, 3rd or 4th (or more) homes sitting on the once pristine lakes surrounding my home, most now have for sale signs (good luck).

thomas
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« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2011, 07:47:17 AM »

"'they/we get what they pay for"

Tbeek, that is EXACTLY right. If you would take a long look at that statement, you would see the fallacy of most of your posts.

You expect an employer to pay out 100.00 in wages to a man who can only produce 75.00 for the company. That does not add up. An employee has to produce more than just his salary in order for a company to stay afloat. If he can only produce the equal of half a living wage, GUESS WHAT!! He isn't going to earn a living wage.
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« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2011, 09:05:03 AM »

I look at it a bit different iddee, and honestly, I don't believe that you really 'read' my posts, sorry.  

If I pay someone 'less' than what they need to make a living (its not that hard to figure out) then I don't/won't/shouldn't 'expect' as much from them.  However, if I pay them a 'good' or living wage, the bar is set quite a bit higher, don't you think?  I'd much rather have folks that are 'happy' to work for me and thus loyal, as opposed to resentful, unproductive and unhappy.  

BUT as I try to convey repeatedly (not always successful) "That's JUST Me!"  Not trying to convince anyone here. If someone thinks its OK for those at the top to take all the meat and fat for themselves, leaving just the bones to the peeps, well fine.  Good Luck with that.  I'm still doing things differently, OK?

If all we are creating is low paying 'service' type jobs then all we should expect is the same.  Those I know personally who work at the Walmarts of the world, need 'another' source of income to survive.  That could also explain your experience w/ the clerk iddee.  

Perhaps he just got off his 'other' job, or maybe he had to take care of a sick child or relative the night before, while his wife went to work and didn't get any sleep, or was sick himself (w/ no sick leave , because he doesn't get enough hours from Walmart, a typical ploy) who knows?  Just saying iddee, its not always so black and white.  

These things are NEVER so crystal clear or neat and tidy, usually they are much more complicated than we can even imagine, much like the 'perceived' contradictions (fallacy?) mentioned.  I 'could' tell you some stories man:-\ but I'll refrain.

To 'me' there were no contradictions at all, but if there were then it just proves my point.  

Sorry, I'm likely too focused on the BIG picture again.  I really am working on it, no BS.

thomas
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« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2011, 09:17:24 AM »

Quote
Waiting for the 'promise' of better times


ah, well, that explains it.  never knew a better time to come to those who wait.  usually comes to those who WORK.

Quote
Here's another Hint;  Walmart doesn't come close to providing a 'living wage'.   They provide a 'dependant' (or slave )wage, and as iddee so eloquently explained, 'they/we get what they pay for' .  


they pay better than min. wage here.  they also provide graduated benefit packages depending on hours.  pretty much the same as target....but Walmart is not union and that is the reason they have been a target of the left.  

Quote
A 'living wage' is enough to pay the bills, keep food in the house and go see a movie or out to dinner or bowling once or twice a month.  


no one has a right to entertainment.  as for bills, what bills?  the entertainment bills?  the pizza bills?  what food?
having lived will below the poverty level, even in the old days when that actually meant something, "living wage" depends very much on how you live.
if you can't live without the big screen, the satellite TV, the high speed internet, the smart phone......then yes, you will need a higher wage.

the problem is not with the wage.  the problem is with the expectation that you can have stuff and never have to sacrifice to get to the place where you can afford stuff.  
how about this?  if you don't like your wage then get qualified to do something that gives you a better wage!  an no....i don't mean spend years at university.....

 
Quote
However, if I pay them a 'good' or living wage, the bar is set quite a bit higher, don't you think?  I'd much rather have folks that are 'happy' to work for me and thus loyal, as opposed to resentful, unproductive and unhappy. 


that's fine if it's your choice.  you should be able to make that choice based on how your business is doing and the available work force.  the work force is a commodity also, and that's a good thing for the good worker.  he/she gets the better job and you get the better employee.  unions and govt regulations about hiring take that away from both of you.

Quote
Those I know personally who work at the Walmarts of the world, need 'another' source of income to survive

you don't suppose that someone making an entry level job a career choice, might be the problem?  should the employer be responsible for the choices, outside work, of the employee?
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« Reply #28 on: December 22, 2011, 09:54:27 AM »

How long will a company stay in business if they pay out 1.10 in wages for every dollar their employees produce. It has nothing to do with fairness, equality, or ability to make a living. It all boils down to how much they can produce. If a beehive produces 80 lbs. of excess honey, they cannot consume 81 lbs. over the winter. Guess what, THEY DIE!

That's the way life is. When you ask for more than you produce, it just doesn't work. It doesn't matter what you want, think you should have, or demand. It all boils down to what you produce, and what you do with what you do get.
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« Reply #29 on: December 22, 2011, 10:00:31 AM »

Sorry kathyp, but sarcasm doesn't come across well on the web, did you not notice the parenthesis around 'promise'?  Some will do or say anything to twist the message, good job.

Minimum wage is a joke, the rich laugh 'heartily' at what we are willing to accept all the time.  Believe me I've seen and heard it plenty over the years.  Remember what I said about preferring the company of poor folks over the rich?

No one has a 'right' to entertainment heh?  Guess I'll just burn all my guitars, books etc... rolleyes, That's a very telling assertion kathyp, considering we are the most entertained (least informed) people on the planet. Sounds like the voice of a 'Nitpicker" to me grin.

That's right!  Its MY choice to treat all people fairly and also ask others to do the same, no one is being forced to as far as I can see.  IMO; treating people fairly is an American thing, but again, that's just me.  Well I guess there are lots of others who feel the same.  Disagree if you want, it won't bother me too much, because I DO UNDERSTAND (that BIG picture I'm always looking at, you know).

If an employer consistently hires less than desirable employees, eventually they will wonder why and make some changes or go out of business.  

People around here at least 'take what they can find' even at a fraction of what was once earned.  Is it different by you?

Qualifications mean little in todays job market.  Most of the Country is over-qualified for the entry level service jobs thrown our way.  People take them because it beats the alternative.

thomas 
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« Reply #30 on: December 22, 2011, 10:13:51 AM »

why build new factories here and build something that is already being made cheaper in other countries and sold at your local walmart ?

the problem is a vicious circle. people are trying to be frugal so they buy things cheaper at places like walmart which gets probably 99% of their "merchandise" from china. nobody buys anything "made in U.S.A. " anymore because it either costs more or takes longer to get it because it has to ship from somewhere, or it just doesn't exist. this forces companies to move overseas in order to compete and be productive. this will only end when, one by one, the very last of all the third world nations finally becomes an economic power and America becomes the cheapest place to get things made again, this may take a few years though.

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« Reply #31 on: December 22, 2011, 10:20:20 AM »

I'd rather pay more (and not have to replace it after a year or two) for quality American made crap and be able to make a complaint or compliment to someone on the other end of the phone who talks like me.  Just ME though Wink

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« Reply #32 on: December 22, 2011, 10:22:02 AM »

Sorry kathyp, but sarcasm doesn't come across well on the web, did you not notice the parenthesis around 'promise'?  Some will do or say anything to twist the message, good job.

A 'Free' Society must step up IMO, even if 'forced' to do so.  That's the 'realist' coming out of me.

Well, then we must agree if that is the case.   Maybe the reason you are misunderstood so much is that you are so sarcastic and we just aren't realizing it. rolleyes

Edit: PS, those aren't parenthesis.  Those are single quotes.  Parenthesis look like ( and ).
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« Reply #33 on: December 22, 2011, 10:35:34 AM »

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I'd rather pay more (and not have to replace it after a year or two) for quality American made crap and be able to make a complaint or compliment to someone on the other end of the phone who talks like me.  Just ME though


i absolutely agree with you, but sometimes it is darn near impossible.
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« Reply #34 on: December 22, 2011, 10:48:12 AM »

""No one has a 'right' to entertainment heh?  Guess I'll just burn all my guitars, books etc... rolleyes ""

WHAT?? I thought you had given all that to the first poor, homeless, downtrodden, drunk dopehead you met.

Maybe you don't practice what you preach after all.

Now, THAT is sarcasm!!  evil grin
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« Reply #35 on: December 22, 2011, 10:49:17 AM »

I'd rather pay more (and not have to replace it after a year or two) for quality American made crap and be able to make a complaint or compliment to someone on the other end of the phone who talks like me.  Just ME though Wink

thomas

That is actually a very racist thing to say. The people I talk to over there are extremely pleasant and cheerful and willing to help, even if they are occasionally a bit hard to understand.  The few I've spoken with, anyway, not that I call helplines very often.  And if you want quality stuff you can still pay extra for quality stuff made overseas.  

I actually don't mind speaking with an Indian person who is now earning (although less than us) a living wage in India and improving their family life and bringing their society to a higher plane.  Why shouldn't they have jobs?  Shouldn't we americans sacrifice a few of our jobs to bring the rest of the world a little of the joys and dreams we've realized over the past few decades?  Shouldn't we suffer a little bit of what they've suffered in spades?

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« Reply #36 on: December 22, 2011, 12:47:34 PM »

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No one has a 'right' to entertainment heh?  Guess I'll just burn all my guitars, books etc... , That's a very telling assertion kathyp, considering we are the most entertained (least informed) people on the planet. Sounds like the voice of a 'Nitpicker" to me .

considering entertainment a "right" might explain why we are so uninformed? 

you may consider it nitpicking, but words have meaning.  if what you say is not what you mean, how are we to understand you?  BTW....entertainment need not cost money. 
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« Reply #37 on: December 22, 2011, 05:13:31 PM »

What is a living wage?

I went into a Wal-mart today to make a purchase. A young, "maybe 25" man waited on me. I pointed to the item I wanted and said. I want a dozen of them. His reply was, " How many do you want? I repeated, a dozen. He looked at me strangely and asked, "How many is that".

Now just how high a wage is this man worth?


Give him a break maybe he never gathered eggs or eat donuts. grin grin
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