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Author Topic: Protein Isolate  (Read 5556 times)
CapnChkn
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« on: December 19, 2011, 02:59:55 AM »

I found a jar of stuff used to build big muscles.  I looked the ingredients over and it looked pretty good for feeding the bees.  I'm not thinking of dropping 20 bucks for the stuff, but what do you think?

Wheat Protein Isolate
protease
elastase
trypsin

Sweetners
sucralose
Neotame
acesulfame potassium

soy lecithin

The jar says 20 g of protein per 24 g serving.  Do you suppose the "Wheat Protein Isolate" would have Gluten in it, and is Gluten a problem for bees?
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2011, 03:54:10 AM »

None of those sweetners are good for bees... they need sugars.
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Michael Bush
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BlueBee
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« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2011, 05:11:50 AM »

CapnChkn, I asked the same question a while back and was shot down.  However being stubborn as I am, that doesnít mean Iím not going to try it anyways for spring buidup Smiley

Some Whey brands have more sweetners than others.  The stuff I buy for myself has almost no sweetners.  Iím not 17 anymore and donít need the extra calories of sweetners in my Whey.  Youíll find some brands of whey with about 140 calories per serving (25 grams of protein/serving) and other will have 300 to 400 calories.  I stick with the low calorie brands.   

Most whey has an amino acid profile that covers all the essential amino acids and then some.   The stuff I use has these.

L-Alanine
L-Arginine
L-Aspartic Acid
L-Cystine
L-Glutamic Acid
L-Glutamine
Glycine
L-Histidine
L-Isoleucine (BCAA)
L-Leucine (BCAA)
L-Lysine
L-Methionine
L-Phenylalanine
L-Proline
L-Serine
L-Theanine
L-Tryptophan
L-Tyrosine
L-Valine
L-Homearginine
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jaseemtp
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« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2011, 09:08:25 AM »

I had the same question and recieved mixed responses.  I was given a recipe on using this in fondant but I have not tried it.  Like CapnChkn stated it to expensive to use but I had some in the pantry that was about to expire and figured what the heck why not feed it to the bees.
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CapnChkn
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« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2011, 01:33:55 PM »

Thank you everyone!  What does anyone think of using a Wheat base product?

Everything in the first set are proteins.  I don't know of any that might poison the bees, so I'm just accepting they're part of life in general.  The sweetners are what's getting me, are any toxic to bees?  The Lecithin is part of the HBH recipe, so I'm taking my guess at "Ok."

It also has "natural and artificial flavors," which only tells me they may have ground up a tree in New Guinea to get it.  I would guess the bees would either love or hate the strong smell.

Yessir Micheal!  I feed them sugars.  I just spent a week thinking I had come to a good idea by inverting the sucrose to simpler sugars so I could get syrup with less moisture on them while I can; to discover using the citric acid will make HMF...

BlueBee, you're talking about the liquid left behind after they press curds, right?  Or is this a brand of stuff?  My brother would probably know about all these supplements, I'm 6'1" and 176 lbs.  All Muscle...

jaseemtp, Zackly!  The superman store down the road throws this out on occasion.  Hmmm.

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Finski
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« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2011, 05:26:28 PM »

xxx  quote author=CapnChkn link=topic=35591.msg296522#msg296522 date=1324281595]

sounds  not good at all...

Wheat Protein Isolate ... Something made from wheat and purified

these are enzymes which split proteins
protease
elastase
trypsin

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Finski
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« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2011, 05:36:19 PM »

[quote author=BlueBee link=topic=35591.msg296525#msg296525 date=1324289some.   The stuff I use has these.

L-Alanine
L-Arginine
L-Aspartic Acid
L-Cystine
L-Glutamic Acid
L-Glutamine
Glycine
L-Histidine
L-Isoleucine (BCAA)
L-Leucine (BCAA)
L-Lysine
L-Methionine
L-Phenylalanine
L-Proline
L-Serine
L-Theanine
L-Tryptophan
L-Tyrosine
L-Valine
L-Homearginine

[/quote]


bees need 10 essential amino acids in certain relations. That catalogue  does not help.

Read from  google "protein content and amino acid profiles of honey bee collected pollen".
Australia 1996



if you  feed protein to bees, use yeast and soya  flour mixture + irradiated pollen  to make stuff palatable.

 Dry yeast 50%
 Soya flour with fat 30%
irradiated pollen 20%

no idea to feed to bees some stuff what  you do not know what it is.  These kind of stuffs become old and get bitter taste.

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BlueBee
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« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2011, 06:25:11 PM »

Finski, too many numbers for me to type in the proportions of the proteins in my whey.  Hereís a link of with proportions if anybody wants to analyze them.  http://www.twinlab.com/product/100-whey-protein-fuel%C2%AE

Finski, I AM going to follow your advice with most of my bees (Yeast, Soya, etc).  However I have spare bees and I have spare whey, and I like to experiment Smiley  Iíll probably experiment with the Whey on some of my nucs.
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rdy-b
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« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2011, 09:11:35 PM »

 dont think what you have would be best for you-with that said we can explore the benefit of using
 a protein isolate in combination with other ingredients for a balanced nutrition  -the protein isolate will allow
 you to raise the protein levels of a supplement -and it is this very high levels of protein that allow you to add
 ingredients for aid in consumption -basically sugar or honey--most of the time it takes atleast 50% sugar or honey
 for the bees carbohydrate consumption to aid in the processing of protein--thats why beebread is about 50-50
 honey and pollen-so if your formula specs out at 50%protein and you add 50% honey or sugar-your protein level
will be at 25% protein with 50% sugar for the benefit of carbohydrate and consumption
 
 the protein benefit is achieved with the correct amino acid profile required by bees-with this being said if the profile
exceeds the bees needs it is just waste material they poop out any way-so the balance is essential--we have had great success using
 soy isolate as a protein booster with our formulas-- Smiley RDY-B

 Table 1: Essential amino-acids for honey bees

 
Amino-acid   
Minimum required % of amino-acid in protein digested
Threonine   
3.0
Valine   
4.0
Methionine   
1.5
Leucine   
4.5
Iso-leucine   
4.0
Phenylalanine   
2.5
Lysine   
3.0
Histidine
1.5
Arginine
3.0
Tryptophan   
1.0

 
  If one of these essential amino-acids is not present in the amount required by the bees, then the bees cannot fully digest as protein all the protein they have eaten. For instance, if one of the amino-acids is required at 4% and is only available at 3%, then only three-quarters of the total protein consumed can be utilized by the bees, as body-building protein  Wink
 
« Last Edit: December 19, 2011, 10:01:45 PM by rdy-b » Logged
CapnChkn
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« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2011, 04:21:46 AM »

Well, in general, life runs on fuel, in this case sugar, and all the bits and pieces are joined together by enzymes.  Another name for the enzymes is proteins.  Proteins act as catalysts in the body to get the chemical reactions useful to build, destroy, and otherwise manage the functions.  So if the proteins are not harmful to this life-form, they would just be burned as fuel, or excreted.

It's going to take a lot of reading and thinking before I can actually understand all that info there Rdy!  I've actually just been using the recipe I've chunked together.  It seems to work, when they're hungry enough.  Since I've never used protein supplements before, I'm basically on virgin ground.

I realise the bees would prefer whole pollen, but I don't have any.  I think we're going a little nuts trying to satisfy the nutritional dynamics instead of feeding them.  If you think about it, bees would have all the nutrition bees would need, though not the roughage, and in the right proportions.

In other posts I've seen the term "Soy Isolate," but never really gave it any thought as the only soy product I can find is plain Soy flour.  I tried to find dried egg yolks, but you might just as well be asking for "heartwood cedar lumber."  Since my recipe gets hard as a brick, I got the idea to use glucose instead of sucrose, but Invertase seems pretty expensive.  And a Lipid.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2011, 05:09:22 AM »

>Another name for the enzymes is proteins.

Enzymes are all proteins, but proteins are not necessarily enzymes by any means.  Most are not.  It's the same relationship as squares and rectangles.  A square is a rectangle, but a rectangle may or may not be a square...

Amino acids are used by organisms to make enzymes and other proteins.  Some amino acids some organisms can make if they have the right "parts" and some they cannot manufacture and must have in their diet.

Enzymes that an organism needs are usually manufactured by that organism from amino acids.  They do not usually come from their diet.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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rdy-b
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« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2011, 01:03:06 PM »


**In other posts I've seen the term "Soy Isolate," but never really gave it any thought as the only soy product I can find is plain Soy flour.  I tried to find dried egg yolks, but you might just as well be asking for "heartwood cedar lumber."  Since my recipe gets hard as a brick, I got the idea to use glucose instead of sucrose, but Invertase seems pretty expensive.  And a Lipid.**

 CAPN-If i where feeding a small number of hives-i would just use mega bee -however-if you need sources
 and more info i can point you in that direction-here are some sources--
http://www.eggstore.com/poweggyol.html

http://store.honeyvillegrain.com/soyproteinisolate4lb.aspx

http://store.honeyvillegrain.com/powderedeggyolks50lb.aspx
 
 Smiley  RDY-B
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rdy-b
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« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2011, 01:37:21 PM »


**It's going to take a lot of reading and thinking before I can actually understand all that info there Rdy!  I've actually just been using the recipe I've chunked together.  It seems to work, when they're hungry enough.  Since I've never used protein supplements before, I'm basically on virgin ground.**
http://allthemfiles.horizon-host.com/files/pollensub.html

 capn-try adding OILS at 6% V or W-best would be 50/50 saflower and corn oil-this will keep the mix moist
  Wink RDY-B
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CapnChkn
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« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2011, 02:39:52 PM »

I guess I've opened a can of worms.  But, Hey Guys!  I'm a worm farmer! Ba-Dum! Chishhh!

Yeah, we're splitting hairs, a long chain protein.

Finski Sez:
Quote
these are enzymes which split proteins
protease
elastase
trypsin


The way I understand it, Proteins supply the Nitrogenous compounds.  If any compound which is not toxic or has a metabolic by-product that is toxic is ingested, it would be broken down into it's components and utilised either as a building block or as fuel.  An obvious example of toxic proteins would be the venom.

The organism then would line up it's RNA by use of enzymes, to lay out the form the components, the amino acids, would then use to create the new compounds in the system.  I would imagine since reducing the molecule to it's simplest forms then reassembling them would be unnecessary and waste energy, that the chunks of the molecule would then be assembled into the finished product.

If you eat something you get off the shelf, read the ingredients and see "Natural flavoring."  You could be eating the original source for that food or something from the strangest source you can imagine.  By law "Natural" simply means it wasn't cooked up in a test tube.  "Organic" however means it was put together the old-fashioned way, hard work, and love.

So my question is not, "Would this work better than the real McCoy?"  Rather, "Why wouldn't this work?"  My first impression is the sweetners would break down to toxins.  The unused Proteins would simply be used for fuel or excreted.  I have an image in my mind of the Wheat glutens giving the bees chewing fits and gas.  I suppose if Humans had developed a taste for pollen, it would be an industry and the source for our protein, not to mention the focus of our food breeding programs.

Rdy, Thank you!  I've been working on this from the perspective of "Bootstrap Business."  It's true enough that I'm working 3 colonies right now, and buying ingredients in bulk would be pointless.  Collecting pollen would be better, but we had a dearth this summer, and little or nothing the last few months.  I'm still more concerned with making bees rather than Honey.  I was thinking Canola oil, but Safflower and Corn sounds good.

Keep the good info coming folks!  Synthesis Reconciles!
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rdy-b
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« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2011, 04:17:35 PM »

**So my question is not, "Would this work better than the real McCoy?"  Rather, "Why wouldn't this work?" **

 its not that it wouldn't work-its more of its not what you would want-there is no shortage of formulas
 for beneficial feeding supplements-its the whole package that needs to be accounted for-this includes
cost and availability -by the time you get these sourced your bang for the buck is out the window-
 but there are many isolates that can provide protein source -as you have found out they have to
 be compatible to mix and remain of a quality texture-and they have to consume it-finding the
 perfect fit is the trick--  cheesy 4 lbs soyisolate 90% protien gota go further than that
 wheat isolate-RDY-B

http://store.honeyvillegrain.com/soyproteinisolate4lb.aspx
http://store.honeyvillegrain.com/wheatproteinisolatearise8000.aspx
 
« Last Edit: December 20, 2011, 05:27:30 PM by rdy-b » Logged
Finski
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« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2011, 06:06:01 PM »

.
This is going again too far. Guys who do not understand the basic figure are going to use something special.

Isolate = isolated from something or purifed

normal superstore soya with 20% fat is very good.

Egg gives no advantage to the patty. Neither skimmed milk.

I use soya protein HP100 which has been generated to replace animal mother milk. It comes from Holland. That was special route to get into Finland.

My drye yeast is from a French company, but yeast factory is in Canada and it has been transported to the Finish Yeast Factory.

Irradiated pollen is from China. Don't laugh but pollen is 5 years old. Ha ha you say, but in Britain they have not at all irradiated pollen to buy.

Our companies say that consumption is so small that they cannot buy every year fresh pollen.

But old stuff  works because bees get aminoacids from yeast and from soya.
I use multivitamin, c-vitamin and magnesium in a patty.


As you see. This is complex enough and impossible to arrange small amounts.

.
 
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rdy-b
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« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2011, 07:15:43 PM »

  WE have new beekeeping Hero from finland- cheesy  --RDY-B
 
wintering Buckfast bees in Finland
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rdy-b
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« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2011, 09:42:15 PM »


*Egg gives no advantage to the patty.*

egg gives the added cholesterol for extended BROOD REARING- Smiley

*Isolate = isolated from something or purified*

 dont know what to think of this statement-its FOOD GRADE and all the nutritive benefits are intact- cool

* I use soya protein HP100*

this product is some kind of ISOLATE in itself-its been engineered -whats the difference- Wink

* But old stuff  works because bees get amino-acids from yeast and from soya.*

 this seams to be one of the biggest problems with your region-there just is no available sources
for adequate ingredients-- Undecided

 the topic is protein isolate- tongue

 HAPPY SOLSTICE-- Wink RDY-B
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Finski
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« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2011, 12:18:16 AM »

.
Randy, warning again. i have studied in university plant physiology. It is quite near biochemisty. I am able to understand these things and you are pluffing again. You play wiser than you are.

I have read many serious laboratory tests about bee nutrition. None of them recommends cholesterol or egg.

hp100 is not an isolate. It is prosessed soya. Fat has been isolated away. I use canola oil to make the patty more tasty. I suppose that some amino acids are not isolated but they has  been added to hp100. So called balanced to serve as mammal milk.

Actually we do not know much about bee nutriton. Every serious researcher says that bees need vitamins, but no one says what and how much. But now I do not mean hobby beekeepers. They know everything because a  friend told or some very old guy.

And Egyptian researcher noticed  that added magnesium gives larger brood area.

No one knows either how much bees needs fats. 7% is upper limit what is said and that amount is in canola pollen.  Bee body fattening has something to do with swarming.

.get away from fats with dancing....


Too complex that level to handle. When folks get a recipe, they put into patty what ever they get into mind.  They too drop away essential stuffs.

Folks do not understand the basics of 50% sugar in patty. Its duty is to stop molding and fermenting.  If your patty makes air bubbles, add sugar.

.
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rdy-b
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« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2011, 01:12:58 AM »

**Randy, warning again. i have studied in university plant physiology. It is quite near biochemisty. I am able to understand these things and you are pluffing again. You play wiser than you are.**

 I am not RANDY (HE is famous california beekeeper  :loll:)-your perception of the topic is limited to your inability to let people express there experience
 and noledge -you are self righteous and closed minded -its in your nature-not your own fault- i guess- Sad

**I have read many serious laboratory tests about bee nutrition. None of them recommends cholesterol or egg**
 
 they are not beekeepers -follow what you will-or wont-once again you have isolated your self from a important fact
 that could benefit you-- huh

 
**Folks do not understand the basics of 50% sugar in patty. Its duty is to stop molding and fermenting.  If your patty makes air bubbles, add sugar.**

the 50% sugar is a important point -HOWEVER it is not to stop fermenting (for this use acidifying agent-such as ascorbic acid crystals-or your vitamin C to change ph as a preservitive) the 50% sugar is for consumption (they gota eat it) also carbohydrate  for utilization of proteins---- Lips Sealed

 
**Actually we do not know much about bee nutrition. Every serious researcher says that bees need vitamins, but no one says what and how much. But now I do not mean hobby beekeepers. They know everything because a  friend told or some very old guy.**

 we know enough to use profile from pollen for our guide when we make advances in nutrition- cheesy


finski-- Smiley  the topic is protein isolate-try and be a little more constructive in your approach-you have no claim to this topic
or any other topic-the group moves along fine without the negative braiding --HAPY SOLSTICE  Wink  RDY-B

« Last Edit: December 21, 2011, 01:41:09 AM by rdy-b » Logged
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