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Author Topic: Made in America  (Read 13451 times)
T Beek
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« Reply #140 on: December 22, 2011, 05:34:30 AM »

I'm always touching hot irons kathyp.  Its the 'only' way to know for sure and if quick one does no damage at all Wink.

I never said 'we' should guarantee equal outcomes, that's not even close (although a level playing field would be appropriate).  I just don't believe that in a 'free and very wealthy' country we should ever leave our fellow citizens behind, like most societies did in the past and many still do.  I don't want to go backward at the expense of those who are less fortunate.  I want to assist the afflicted and afflict the well off, who only made good due to 'someone elses' labor or money.

Do you really want a 100 (plus) year throwback (Gangs of New York)?  A return to Child Labor, 80 plus hour work weeks for chump change, take em or leave em?  What do you want? To see more 'poor' living in the streets reflecting a 'poor life style in 'your' image, they've got it pretty good, after all?  

In today's economy those less fortunate among us would have even less of a chance for survival  w/out resorting to slavery,  crime or an easy death.  Is that what you're trying to say, we should just let them all die?  Not very realistic, all things considered.  Somewhat more Utopian (and less likely) than my own hopes for the future.  

I'd rather assist those less fortunate than continue to allow the well off to rip me off.  I'd also rather spend time w/ people on 'skid row' than people w/ money any day.  They're considerably more honest in my experience.  

There's plenty of evidence still in the history books showing that society cannot/willnot provide for the less fortunate in a way that makes any difference for 'the many' (perhaps you some day, anything can happen) who may need it  

A 'Free' Society must step up IMO, even if 'forced' to do so.  That's the 'realist' coming out of me.

thomas
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 06:30:05 AM by T Beek » Logged

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« Reply #141 on: December 22, 2011, 10:03:13 AM »

yes, you caught me.  that's what i want.  people to die in the streets.  i don't think personal responsibility is something that poor people can handle so we either need to support them or let them die....or riot....because we know that poor people riot also.  or...maybe we can get rid of the nasty rich people who keep the poor poor people down.  either way....

(have to admit, i didn't know that Nancy Pelosi kept bees)
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #142 on: December 22, 2011, 10:25:26 AM »

You make it more extreme than I've ever put forward kathyp. 

A 'level' playing field is all any of us should expect and all I've ever asked for. 

IMO (JUST MINE) it has been out of balance for far too long (at least 2000 years).

thomas
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« Reply #143 on: December 22, 2011, 10:35:47 AM »


Do you really want a 100 (plus) year throwback (Gangs of New York)?  A return to Child Labor, 80 plus hour work weeks for chump change, take em or leave em?  What do you want? To see more 'poor' living in the streets reflecting a 'poor life style in 'your' image, they've got it pretty good, after all?  

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You make it more extreme than I've ever put forward kathyp. 

No she didn't.  I think you read your own posts less than everybody you accuse of not reading your posts.
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Rick
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« Reply #144 on: December 23, 2011, 01:43:14 AM »

End the fed, end income tax, and tax luxuries.  I dont know how much simpler that can be.  Our forefathers warned us, and wrote a constitution that should have never allowed us to get in the mess we are now in.  But there are always those who want to make a loop hole, and another, and another.  Soon you find yourself buried in a mess that is so complicated you have to have lawyers doing your taxes.

Return to taxing all imported goods to keep the goods we consume made here.  All you have to do is look back in history when things worked, and worked well.  Sometime you just need to wipe the whole mess off the table and start over.

It will never happen though.  We have to fail first, and I mean fail.  Until then there will just be band aids.

Oh yes, that reminds me.  This is why when the constitution was written, it was written so the states could separate from the union.  States also were not bent over the barrel by the federal government for cash, and states could have by example, showed others how to do things right.  Now the fed says, "our way or the highway" and cut the state off from its citizens own taxes.
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T Beek
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« Reply #145 on: December 23, 2011, 08:22:39 AM »

How about a return to the 'original' intent of 'income' tax which initially did not include WAGES (we're free!!!).  Most taxation was collected from the wealthy and the money made off 'their' money schemes, investments, inheritance, number of slaves owned, etc. 

"That' was our income tax in the beginning (the people's wages were exempt, weren't even considered income), a BIG tax on the well off, on those who benefit the most in our society.  What a concept, tax those who benefit the most.  Does anyone really believe the wealthy would revolt and 'stop' trying to make more money?  That's just another myth and has no historical evidence to back it up.  They LOVE money too much for that.

I like it.  Someone introduce a BILL Smiley

AGREED:  We must start by abolishing the FED (sooner the better), I want to know who they are.  Why are they hiding?  What are they hiding?  The FED as it is today does not belong in a 'free society' although living in a 'free society' is pretty much relative and dependant on WHO YOU ARE.  QUICK:  Who has the most 'freedom' in America?  The rich or the rest?  Now ask why? 

Ohhhhhh I can see the light bulbs shinning brighter already grin

thomas 
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« Reply #146 on: December 23, 2011, 10:43:57 AM »

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What a concept, tax those who benefit the most.

that would be....the poor.

  i'd go for your plan if we ended all welfare by feds, all unemployment payments by feds, all SSI and Medicare, payments to schools, and any other things that the states should be doing. 

if you are taxing the "rich" to pay for only the constitutional mandated jobs of the federal govt, i think they'd go for that and probably pay less than they do now.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
T Beek
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« Reply #147 on: December 23, 2011, 11:26:04 AM »

Yeah, I suppose since you say so it 'must' be true grin.  

Let me offer another perspective please;  I was in DC a few weeks ago and was 'overwhelmed' by all them 'poor folks' standing around (in $5-10,000 suits no less) waiting to talk to their "representatives'  at the Capital.  Boy that was a real eye opener:roll:  

There it is again kathyp (although you've denied such in the past) your fairly persistant 'blaming' of those 'less fortunate' as opposed to blaming, or even demanding some accountability from those actually responsible and who continue to profit while we remain in the BUST (for us, BOOM for them) period of this latest "well-planned" economic crisis has again been presented by you.  What's really up w/ that anyway?  Are you a BANKER grin?  Work for one?  

I'm being serious, I really want to understand where this kind of thinking comes from.  Why are you really so mad at poor people?

Don't you think there's such a thing as WELFARE for the RICH?  Never heard of it you say? huh  IMO; Before this Country talks about cutting entitlements for anyone on the lower rungs of society we MUST first address and cut the 'entitlements' provided to the wealthy.

I really do believe, despite any past denial, you'd prefer seeing the poor 'suffer' quite a bit more, at least 'well' before we see any jailing or suffering of the responsible parties, you know, the already well-off.  We must weep for them too, heh? rolleyes  OK, maybe a little Wink  

The contempt you obviously have for those who 'you assume' are taking something away from you (welfare recipients, really?) is blatant , misplaced and misdirected 'IMO'  (JUST MINE).  Besides being taken directly from the JBS playbook (Always blame the masses, especially those who cannot fight for themselves, for 'all' perceived problems)

Who do you 'really' work for? grin      

I think I know......... Wink

thomas
« Last Edit: December 23, 2011, 11:51:31 AM by T Beek » Logged

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« Reply #148 on: December 23, 2011, 11:46:29 AM »

Kathy, you are such a nasty person and obviously hate those more unfortunate than you.  I'm glad I don't spend time helping at the red cross with you.  Now I'm going to need to spend some time with my guitars humming antiwar songs to make myself feel better.
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Rick
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« Reply #149 on: December 23, 2011, 11:47:46 AM »

i am not mad at the poor.  i am mad at the attitude that the poor are owed something, and that the government should fix them with tax dollars.  you talk about a level playing field in one breath and not leaving anyone behind in the other.  they are not the same thing.

i have two nieces.  they had a crappy start in live, but were taken in by my parents at a young age.  they were educated and given every opportunity in life.  one chose to drop out of school, drink, etc.  she i now almost 30, broke, and getting public assistance.  she is poor because of her choice, not because of the bad rich people.

the other has done well, has a good job and a husband and is about to buy her first house.  why are we supporting the first one?  because we don't want to leave anyone behind?

poverty is not a disease.   sometimes it just happens.  sometimes it's a result of the choices we make.  those who are poor and make good choices,  don't stay poor.  those who make bad choices stay poor.  
to the extent that we as individuals wish, we can help those who are less fortunate while they are in those circumstances.  it should be a choice we make,  not something that is demanded or forced on us.

we have had a "war on poverty" for many years.  what have we accomplished?  we still have poor people, but now we have families that have made welfare a career choice.  the idea that if you are poor you don't need to stay poor if you work hard and make good choices, is pretty much gone.  now if you are poor you are expected, encouraged, to stick you hand out and get all the stuff that society "owes" you.  that's BS and that's what makes me mad.

i am all for caring for those who can't care for themselves....although i believe it is primarily the responsibility of the family to do so first.  anyone else should be caring for themselves.

  
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #150 on: December 23, 2011, 11:48:54 AM »

Quote
I'm going to need to spend some time with my guitars humming antiwar songs to make myself feel better.

don't forget to stick some flowers in your hair  Wink
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #151 on: December 23, 2011, 12:50:01 PM »

Man you hit the nail on the head w/ that one.  We've accomplished little w/ the alleged war on poverty.  Although there is actually much less, what was once called 'open' squalor.  Poverty is certainly better "concealed" these days, when compared to when I was just a pup. 

Here's a little known secret;  We don't 'really' have a war on poverty, never did, or a war on drugs, a war on terror (that's Orwell's 'permanent war') or any of the other 'skirmishes' the politicians like to get us all worked up (and divided) over. 

They're all distractions, nothing more.

Here's the thing, and its why I feel Libertarians have some good ideas (for me, not the whole world or even just the US), as long as they think rationally with an open mind when addressing the causes of poverty and its solutions. 

While I might agree 'somewhat' that poverty can arrive due to people making poor choices (still waiting to see some CEO's in poverty due to their poor choices), its NOT ALWAYS the poor who made the poor choices, in fact its usually someone much higher up on the ladder. 

The poor don't have a recognizable (or organizational) voice.  Most are to busy trying to make it through another day.

Then I think of places like Calcutta (been there more than a few times over the years and even worse if you can imagine), and I just have to disagree.  I don't believe any of the people I've met in some of the worst places on the planet (here and abroad) CHOSE it entirely by 'their' making good or bad decisions/choices. 

The proverbial writting was already written in stone for the vast majority, and still is I'm afraid.  Factually speaking, those born into poverty wind up dieing there as well, and not just in places like Calcutta, but right here in America.

thomas
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« Reply #152 on: December 23, 2011, 01:14:21 PM »

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its NOT ALWAYS the poor who made the poor choices, in fact its usually someone much higher up on the ladder. 


not always, but most of the time.  give me some examples to prove your point because i bet i can give you others for mine that are more the norm.

Quote
The poor don't have a recognizable (or organizational) voice.

sure they do.  isn't that the democrats main claim to fame?

Quote
Then I think of places like Calcutta (been there more than a few times over the years and even worse if you can imagine), and I just have to disagree.  I don't believe any of the people I've met in some of the worst places on the planet (here and abroad) CHOSE it entirely by 'their' making good or bad decisions/choices.


i didn't think we were talking about the entire worlds poor.  it's the so called poverty in this county and how we address it, that i am interested in.  the worlds poor will have to deal with the governments they have...the only comparison i would make is that the dumping of money on these countries, and their poor, has had about the same effect as it has had here. problem not solved, government bloated, good money thrown after bad.

 
Quote
Factually speaking, those born into poverty wind up dieing there as well, and not just in places like Calcutta, but right here in America.

there is some truth to that but the reasons are not the same.  here, i believe the generational poverty in can be attributed directly to the  welfare system.  opportunities exist, but for many it's easy to remain lazy if someone is paying you to be lazy...or have babies...or walk away from those babies...

i believe we will see changes, are already seeing changes, to the cast system in places like India.  as their economy improves, more opportunity will be available and they will need a larger work force. 
it will take a couple of generations, but a growing middle class tends to erase the social class structure over time.  a growing middle class also creates more opportunity for capitalism.  the low cast indian who figures out that the middle class worker doesn't have time to tend the garden, will become the gardening company owner and new middle class member of the future. 

that is...until the government does as it does here...and figures out how to regulate, tax, and hound them into the ground.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #153 on: December 23, 2011, 01:56:07 PM »


Then I think of places like Calcutta (been there more than a few times over the years and even worse if you can imagine), and I just have to disagree.  I don't believe any of the people I've met in some of the worst places on the planet (here and abroad) CHOSE it entirely by 'their' making good or bad decisions/choices. 

The proverbial writting was already written in stone for the vast majority, and still is I'm afraid.  Factually speaking, those born into poverty wind up dieing there as well, and not just in places like Calcutta, but right here in America.

thomas

And yet you'd deny the Indians a capitalistic leg up that they gain by spending the time learning our language and accent and working in a call center.  They work hard for the right to earn that money.

most of the millionaires(or more) that I can think of off hand weren't born to privilege(and many were dirt poor), and the ones that were are usually now in the entertainment industry.
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« Reply #154 on: December 23, 2011, 02:05:08 PM »


While I might agree 'somewhat' that poverty can arrive due to people making poor choices (still waiting to see some CEO's in poverty due to their poor choices),
its NOT ALWAYS the poor who made the poor choices, in fact its usually someone much higher up on the ladder. 


duh...CEO's are that because they know how to make good financial decisions, that defines who they are.  Just like pro-basketball players are that because they can make good sporting decisions.  Many of them still suffer from poor decisions...broken marriages, alienated children, an addiction to work. 

I'm sure there are ex-ceo's that live in poverty, but that is ALWAYS because of poor decisions.
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« Reply #155 on: December 23, 2011, 03:06:48 PM »

Here's a little known secret;  We don't 'really' have a war on poverty, never did


Thomas, I think you understand the situation. I recommend to read the more than one hundred years ago written economics book, which is a thorough analysis of poverty as a phenomena of the not so modern western society.
http://www.henrygeorge.org/pcontents.htm
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T Beek
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« Reply #156 on: December 24, 2011, 05:05:42 AM »

Oh I'm sure we could banter 'examples' all day kathyp.  I could provide just as many of both I'm sure, but I don't think it would prove anything.  I didn't know this was a competition rolleyes Did you read my post?  Feels like nitpicking again.

The DEMs work for the wealthy too kathyp,  its just a game to them.  You really 'don't read my posts do you?

Sorry for trying to get 'others' to see the BIG Picture (Calcutta).  Poverty is poverty, regardless of location.

We've always had a society made of classes kathyp, despite the claims otherwise there's been a 'class war' perpetuated by the wealthy upon the rest of us since the invention of money.  I thought you guys read history.

Have you been to India lately?  Well, little has changed w/ the influx of money, there's just more people and the rich have gotten richer, SOS.  

You see, and perhaps this is what isn't understood by so many;  The rich NEED the poor, it helps deflect any animosity from the middleclasses, as has been exampled repeatedly time and again in these very pages.  How's that?  Any mind-bending going on yet?

So....little ol me has somehow denied poor Indians huh.....what exactly rolleyes.  You seem to know little about 'this' topic and from the words typed I think you are very confused about poverty.  Are you injecting my stated desire to speak w/ 'Americans' about American made products, who speak like me?  Is that what's going on?  More nitpicking rolleyes  

Anything to twist the message, right?

How many millionaires do you 'actually' know kathyp, sorry I meant Scads (hard to keep track sometimes Wink?  No, its NOT a competition, although I've known a few too, even have some 'private' numbers.  Big deal, I still prefer to spend time w/ poor folks.  Your answer will hopefully explain some things.

(scads doesn't read my posts either, see 'his' comments re; CEO's above rolleyes)  duh?  Really scads?  Name ONE scads.

boca;  Its in my library Smiley thanks!

thomas
« Last Edit: December 24, 2011, 05:54:12 AM by T Beek » Logged

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« Reply #157 on: December 24, 2011, 05:46:01 AM »

How do we know they were 5 to 10 thousand dollar suits?
We must  either be awful familiar with that caliber of clothing or we out right asked what that suit costs.And I think it is a far stretch to say every rich person got that way by some "scam" and must be punished by the tax code. Taxing achievement is not a good way to further society.
Why give the impression it's best to be almost all you can be ,because if you go on to be all you can be it's going to cost you.I know some of what a lot of people call wealthy(I most certainly do not fit the definition) but  they got where they are through sacrifice of a lot of time,doing without vacations and a lot of other things they good have bought along the way, and good old fashioned hard work.
I take offense that they should give it up because someone else deserves a slice of the pie they have attained by sacrificing other meals along the way.
  And believe me a lot of these people that are resentful of these peoples money have the same opportunities but are not willing to assume the risks of investing all of their earnings or put in the hours necessary to get their.
So many people would get so much farther ahead if they would learn from the achievers rather than spend so much time figuring out how to take what they have earned.
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« Reply #158 on: December 24, 2011, 05:52:06 AM »

Just a side note on this heated debate:
 Remember that we will  not tolerate personal attacks here.Argue the ideas and principles all you wish,but if it slides to personal attacks,members have been removed before.Keep up the debate,but don't step over the line ,so to speak.
And it's Christmas Eve,lighten up a little!!! Smiley
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« Reply #159 on: December 24, 2011, 06:07:49 AM »

Thanks Buzzbee, but please don't put words in my mouth.  You seem to claim I've said things that were not said.  We can all be guilty of nitpicking, sorry.  

Do you consider this a 'heated' discussion?  No one has told another to 'shut up' or has called anyone some derogatory name yet.  Didn't even see a MOD during some of those occurrences.

Honestly, I think this has been 'fairly' well behaved when compared to some others I just left behind.  

That said,  It really does pay to 'read' and try to absorb others thoughts, not accept them per say, but absorb, or entertain them, let them swim around our brains a bit.  You know, challenge our own comfort zone and all that.  

Nothing else going on here that I can tell.

But again.  Thanks.  I for one am glad you're watching.  BTW "I know a $5-10,000 suit when I see one, I've seen plenty.

"Peace on Earth, Good will to all"

thomas
« Last Edit: December 24, 2011, 07:43:23 AM by T Beek » Logged

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