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Author Topic: Made in America  (Read 13463 times)
T Beek
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« Reply #80 on: December 15, 2011, 09:25:00 AM »

Higher profits for everybody?  Really?  That's sounds like the old 'trickle down' theory.  I don't think there's much evidence that it worked as well as implied.  I challenge you to find a credible economist who agrees with that.  Even those who might agree know full well (can't change the math) that wages have been mostly flat (when 'all' additional increased expenses are considered) since the 70's, while the 'Corps' have made record profits, and still are, while the rest of us struggle and fret in the midst of the crisis we (you and I) must eventually pay our way out of.  

I'll admit to 'some' trickle down, but it sure didn't help the 'ALL' you claim it did.  It mostly helped the 'all ready well off'.

Having the ability to purchase cheap 'throw away' junk made at a great distance by impoverished people performing our old jobs for a fraction of the cost, says what exactly?  Personally, just me now, I don't consider it a privilege.

How is that 'progress' for anyone other than those profiting off the venture (and of course those who now get 50 cents an hour, up from zero)?  Sorry, no offence, but I need a better argument than just saying "its so" to convince me.

I was always attracted to the 'brink' (some call it the edge) in life, not so much any more.  History is full of such tales of people finally coming to the 'brink' and taking 'direct action' (tea party/OWS etc.) and making effective, albeit not always clean (usually messy), transitions/revolutions/evolutions.  

There's certainly a lot more happening on the brink.  But for many its too scary to even get close.

Hm mm, it wasn't our Government that gave the 7.2 trillion away to some the worlds largest BANKS (some were foreign), it was the Fed (IE; a handful of 'unknown' BANKS), and for less than .00% interest (free), then the 'money' was 'gifted' back to the U.S Treasury at 3% interest by the same banks who then 'earned' 13-15 billion in profit for the favor rolleyes.  So much for the BANKS paying it all back, hey? And at a profit even, go figure.

Its the BANKS who own our Government Scads, not the other way around.  If this most recent 'outing' (read the full BLOOMBERG, January issue article on line) teaches us anything it teaches us how much control they 'really' have.  

Frankly, IMO; we are owned lock, stock and barrel, as they say, by BIG BANKS.  At least until 'we've' had enough and stop all the petty divisions among each other huh.  Not in their best interests.

thomas
« Last Edit: December 15, 2011, 10:13:41 AM by T Beek » Logged

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« Reply #81 on: December 15, 2011, 10:09:02 AM »

credible economists....credible by whos standards?  after all, Marx and Engels were economists as i recall.

Quote
Having the ability to purchase cheap 'throw away' junk made at a great distance by impoverished people performing our old jobs for a fraction of the cost, says what exactly?  Personally, just me now, I don't consider it a privilege

don't buy it.
after WW2 the Japanese started turning out junk.  ask my MIL.  she still refers to "Japanese junk  smiley ).  seems that worked out pretty well for them....eventually. 

Quote
I'll admit to 'some' trickle down, but it sure didn't help the 'ALL' you claim it did.  It mostly helped the 'all ready well off'.

works way better that "trickle up".  works better than redistribution. 

we also are not limited by our station in life, at birth.  while we are at the bottom being trickled on, we can be managing our life so that we get to the top and do the trickling.  will everyone get to the top?  of course not.  need everyone stay on the bottom? no.  we are limited only by our choices and the amount of work we want to do.

Quote
Frankly, IMO; we are owned lock, stock and barrel, as they say, by BIG BANKS.  At least until 'we've' had enough and stop all the petty divisions among each other .  Not in their best interests.

i agree with you about the fed, but we are owned by and ever expanding government and it's oppressive regulations.
on a day to day basis, from employment, to taxes, to our ability to manage our own lives, it is government that stands before us.  there's little in life that you can do without "papers", or without running afoul of some regulation.

? for you, T Beek.  you seem to have lots to say, but i have never heard you offer a solution.  what would you like to see as a government, as trade laws, as employment laws?  if you could be king for a day, what would you do?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #82 on: December 15, 2011, 10:17:14 AM »

We profit from more than just money.  Cheap goods has given americans entertainment and disposable income.  There is a perceived profit in that. An outcome we've all desired and enjoyed.  Every home, even the poorest has a tv, most have lcd tvs, xboxes, cell phones, computers.  Please stop and ponder that for a moment before going on about "profits".

The banks own the government like Faust owned Mephistopheles.
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Rick
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« Reply #83 on: December 15, 2011, 10:24:34 AM »

 applause
Quote
The banks own the government like Faust owned Mephistopheles.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #84 on: December 15, 2011, 10:53:47 AM »

kathyp; Since asked, My (personal) views are likely more Libertarian than one might think, based particularly on some of the responses to the 'many' solutions I have 'in fact' offered here (mostly ignored) and on other threads, only to have them minimized, ridiculed and/or misunderstood.  I've been told I don't answer questions (?), but most that I've asked also remain unanswered.

I've come to believe its my own fault 'for not saying more?, for not providing more details?, experience? anecdotes, What?, I don't know, really.  But I fear I've already said too much for many.  Seems I've 'unintentionally' made some enemies.  Alas, the (miss?) judgements and condemnation come on fast, along w/ initial false impressions.  Hard to change a 'false first impression' I'm afraid.  Not sure it can be done anymore.

I also believe that when one is under attack, it just means our own volleys were/are "right on target."

Since my views lean toward Libertarianism (surprise!), with "allowance's" for social tolerance affordable in a 'free society', I would no more seek a Kingdom than would I support one.

We've really never experienced anything like a 'trickle up' economy on the planet that I'm aware of, unless you mean our own.  The Soviets didn't perfect this kind of redistribution with their experiment, as so many believe.  It was us.  'That' really describes the reality IMO.  JUST MINE.  Don't get all excited grin

IMO we already have a clear redistribution of wealth, that's been going on w/ every 'bust and boom' we've lived through since Washington was President and was warning us about the shenanigans of the BANKERS.  We didn't listen.  We let them take over our Government.

IMO; we need "FAIR TRADE not FREE (for some) TRADE.  Hey, thanks for asking Smiley

Scads;  Yeah we need more entertainment huh And I apologise to you as  I meant to make a separation long ago between small or 'real' small American Businesses vs Global Empires.  There is a huge difference.
thomas
« Last Edit: December 20, 2011, 06:31:47 AM by T Beek » Logged

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« Reply #85 on: December 15, 2011, 12:51:30 PM »

Quote
I've come to believe its my own fault 'for not saying more?, for not providing more details?, experience? anecdotes, What?, I don't know, really.  But I fear I've already said too much for many.  Seems I've 'unintentionally' made some enemies.  Alas, the (miss?) judgements and condemnation come on fast, along w/ initial false impressions.  Hard to change a 'false first impression' I'm afraid.  Not sure it can be done anymore.

people are not your enemy just because they disagree with you.  conversely, they are not your friend just because they do agree with you.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #86 on: December 15, 2011, 01:14:18 PM »

Its not the disagreements that are so troubling.

thomas
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« Reply #87 on: December 15, 2011, 02:07:01 PM »

what troubles you then?  i do not see anyone here attacking you.  perhaps they attack your ideas....

it seems that everyone here, even though many do not agree with all you have said, have been very willing to engage you in conversation.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #88 on: December 15, 2011, 02:41:16 PM »


IMO; All working people need/deserve is ONE WORKERS UNION, something like the 'wobblies' suggested/envisioned before dieing out (literally) 100 or so years ago.  

If you work, you're a member, its really as simple as that, whether you can afford the dues or not, you're still represented.  Once established in the US it could eventually include workers of the world.  Talk about 'people power' heh?  

....

There's something happening Here" (and there)............ONE...is the answer.

thomas

Thomas, I'm still stuck way back here.  This is a very UN-libertarian idea, and would create a huge bureaucracy that would make the United Nations look puny and efficient, and would strip the freedom from any and all workers, all under the guise of "sharing".

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Rick
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« Reply #89 on: December 15, 2011, 04:10:02 PM »

Not really, when the theories are also applied socially instead of just individually, or at least with some equality.  There must be some balance (in all things).

Its what I like best about Ron Paul, a staunch Libertarian in personal belief, but wise enough to know the domestic challenges associated w/ pure libertarianism (or pure anything really) and thus quite willing accept some social tolerance in this 'free society' where it is (should be if not) recognised that 'not all humans have the same potential' to reach great heights or gather great riches, regardless of their having the rights to pursue them.  Hey, that's pretty good, even I do say so Wink 

I still believe in individual liberty AND 'I am my brothers keeper' AND that there's is nothing like 'people power' to change the worlds direction.  Why can't I believe all of that, and more?  Why must anyone be this or that or either or?  It makes no sense, not to me.

This whole conversation is starting to remind me why I hate 'labels' in the first place.  Labels;  They don't really mean anything unless associated with a club, group, cult, party, herd, league, jihads (just kidding)....we like joining and being a part of groups, always have.  Is it just because we're all lonely deep down?  I don't know.


thomas
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« Reply #90 on: December 15, 2011, 07:06:06 PM »

Theories, smeories!  The reality is that it don't work! grin  People power is nice, but anything will have a strong leader. Our nation set up representatives and certain leaders for that purpose. 

If you were to try "people power" you WILL end up with soviet style communism - because SOMEBODY will claim that power.  And that somebody will not be the nice somebody.

Labels?  I see them as a simple description of something.  Coffee maker.  Refrigerator. Human. Chair. Liberal. Conservative. Christian. Libertarian.
 
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Rick
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« Reply #91 on: December 16, 2011, 08:17:07 AM »

That's a rather narrow view point Scads.  At least that's the way it came across.

It has 'always' been 'people' who have brought about dramatic changes in the world.  We give our so-called 'leaders' way too much credit for the efforts of the many IMO.  

History (not what's taught in our schools) is clear about this, including both good and bad results.  The bad seems to rear its head whenever the people give too much power to the leaders, a most common result and also very much a part of being human, we're kind of lazy when it comes to this stuff.  

After the 'fight' is over we just want to go home, spend time w/ family and relax, maybe catch up on some lost sleep Wink

Let the 'leaders' handle the details huh.  Our first BIG mistake!  Complacency settles in fast after a fight and until we become uncomfortable 'again' we don't worry too much about what's going on behind the scenes.  (see current situation we live with today).  This is true regardless of the Culture we might live in.

I've found that 'most' humans are considerably more complex than your implication Scads.  I've personally met very few people I could place a definite label on with so much certainty.  IMO its dangerous to do so.  

'Simplifying' people (reducing them to a 'chair') by assuming or placing 'preconceived' notions, based on our own limitations (we 'all' have some) does little to effect progress for our intellectual growth, the conversation at large or eventual peace in the World.  Its like leaving the middle out of a jig saw pic and calling it complete.

Fact is, none of the Worlds known political or religious systems throughout the ages have ever worked very well for very long (especially for the controlled), nor have any stayed w/in the boundaries of its stated 'mission' or plan once in power.  Some examples please ?  All political systems are initially based on 'theory' Scads, most never reaching fruition.

People are way too complex to have one person, one group, one religion, one political party or ONE anything, dictating a particular belief, lifestyle, religion (whatever) to anyone, or any other group of people.   I don't believe the world will ever accept a Soviet Style system again, just Like I don't believe we will have nut jobs flying planes into buildings w/out a fight ever again, but who really knows for sure, not me Wink.

IMO; (just mine now) It will NEVER work until 'we' (that means everyone) become more inclusive, cooperative and tolerant of others, (and that just ain't happening right now).  

Personally, honestly I don't see it happening any time soon.  Humans are still relying too heavily on that 'reptilian' part of our brains, still fighting over 'imagined' lines in the sand if you well.  

What's best for the few as opposed to what's best for the many (think; Holiday shoppers or road rage as current examples), that's where most seem to reside these days, especially in the States IMO.

kathyp;  What 'troubles' me is how easily 'certainty trumps civility' on this forum.  I've gone back to 2006 in the archives (still reading),  the majority of posters were respectful, engaging, and w/ very little condescension and almost no ridicule at all. But it eventually changed and "MANY" posters have since left, which allowed a rather one-sided position 'running' the show (its very enlightening, I'd recommend an archive visit to all, but since I love history....well..).

thomas
« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 08:34:19 AM by T Beek » Logged

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kathyp
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« Reply #92 on: December 16, 2011, 09:53:10 AM »

Quote
kathyp;  What 'troubles' me is how easily 'certainty trumps civility' on this forum.  I've gone back to 2006 in the archives (still reading),  the majority of posters were respectful, engaging, and w/ very little condescension and almost no ridicule at all. But it eventually changed and "MANY" posters have since left, which allowed a rather one-sided position 'running' the show (its very enlightening, I'd recommend an archive visit to all, but since I love history....well..).

since i was involved in a lot of that archive, i don't need a revisit.  if you really did read, you know why some left...however, most are still here. 

the coffee house is not a requirement.  anyone who jumps in or starts a conversation down here is going to be in a conversation.  that means they will have their views challenged by one side or another....just as you challenge mine smiley

if they can not take it, or if they can't keep it together and choose to leave....well, life is about choices, isn't it.

i have NEVER asked that someone be suspended, or banned.  in fact, i have argued on behalf of some that, even though the mods had had it, i thought were interesting people who just needed to calm down. and yes...i have had my own hand slaps and warnings for things that i have said.  i try hard to moderate my behavior and re-read before i post.   Wink 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #93 on: December 16, 2011, 09:56:11 AM »

That's a rather narrow view point Scads.  At least that's the way it came across.  

Oh my...i just hate it when people are so quick to judge...now you are hurting my feelings! grin  

You may call it narrow minded, but I keep screens on all my windows. Wink
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Rick
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« Reply #94 on: December 16, 2011, 11:01:00 AM »

Scads; You can keep this discussion going w/ engaging answers (any answers) and inquires to what I've 'opined' or you can shut it down by continuing on this (yes, I find it narrow and restricting) very narrow path you keep trying to drag me on to.    

If I misunderstood "your" words" which 'IMO' were/are fairly representative of a narrow view, then enlighten me. Seriously.  I 'want' to 'know' where you're coming from.  Again; Seriously, I really do.  

Hey I get it, I'm misunderstood all the time, so I work hard at letting people know 'why' I might take a certain position ( lot of good it did me around here Undecided).

How does one approach someone if all they want to do is 'cherry pick' some parts of an opinion and ignore the content, advise or proposition put forward?  This is EXACTLY why Congress doesn't work so well anymore (perhaps, like conversation they are both becoming obsolete?, I DON"T KNOW Undecided)

Too much talking/typing, not enough listening/reading going on IMO (self-interest the usual suspect, and I'm not excluded).  I just can't believe some have actually complained about 'my' NOT answering inquiries when there's is so much simple 'repositioning' used as a response around here w/out really adding anything to the conversation nor offering a willingness to 'explore' another's thoughts, much less making anyone feel 'welcome' to join in.  

I'm very interested in 'why' people feel the way they do, always have been, and it appears few want to go that far.  AM I wrong?  Prove it.  BTW; I never 'called' you narrow minded, just that your viewpoint came across as rather narrow.

How bout it?  Can we have an open dialogue or not?  IMO its too 'simple' to simply 'agree to disagree' or resort to ridicule or name calling, and we all can do better allowing others to feel more welcome, right?  No?  Yes?   Maybe?

thomas
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« Reply #95 on: December 16, 2011, 12:48:18 PM »

It is because you were only reading those words, and not enough of my other writings Wink But regardless, I don't mind the labels. tongue  

I'm not sure what questions you had that you want answers to.  Except maybe "why"...and since I'm not sure about which "why", I'll start out with "USSR", "Cuba", "China", "stalin", "mao"... y'know, those lessons of recent history.  

Now maybe you can address the concerns that I raised about a one world workers union.

Many people lust for power just like any other vice.  When you leave a power vacuum, those people will fill it. Chavez and Putin are two pretty good current examples there.  One wants socialism, one longs for it back, both so they can have absolute power.  Of course it is "people" who make change, the question is how to keep the power hogs from taking over.

We agree that people are flawed and always will work in their own self interest. But that will never change. Unless we're assimilated.

We've got to work within our limitations.

I think we can probably agree on one other thing...we're both stubborn and want to get the last word in happy campers  Go ahead, you can have it....we're doing a poor job of convincing each other  Smiley.
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Rick
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« Reply #96 on: December 16, 2011, 11:53:41 PM »

>works way better that "trickle up
I have to disagree with you there. In 1915, Henry Ford increased his employee wages and decreased the length of the work day. (I can't remember the exact numbers, about doubled the wages) This initially caused a lot of problems, but when the smoke cleared, Mr Ford had made consumers out of his employee. The other employers in the area; had to either follow suit or pack up and leave. Workers with more money to spend, started buying ' luxury' items ( ie clothes washing machines, Model T Fords, Radios, better clothes ,better food) creating more jobs. Henry Ford's legacy was the working, middle class!

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« Reply #97 on: December 17, 2011, 08:42:09 AM »

Henry Ford was right, trickle up works.  Bush Senior was right, trickle down is voodoo economics. 

The only people who have benefited from voodoo economics is the top 1%.  Look at the wage growth data over the past 30 years.  Henry Ford’s trickle up benefited 50% AND the top 1%. 

We’re all on the same team (or should be), why can’t we have policies where we ALL win?

Now we have something even worse that trickle down to worry about:  trickle sideways, as our money AND our jobs are trickled to China.  And some claim the Walmartification is better for us that a strong AMERICAN car industry rolleyes
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« Reply #98 on: December 17, 2011, 11:36:05 AM »

Quote
Henry Ford was right, trickle up works.  Bush Senior was right, trickle down is voodoo economics. 


the only reason ford was able to do that was because he was making money.  it did go down before it went up.  if the wage comes before the profit, the company fails and everyone loses.
Quote
The only people who have benefited from voodoo economics is the top 1%.

not so.  simple question.  where do jobs come from?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #99 on: December 17, 2011, 05:58:14 PM »

where do jobs come from?

Jobs come from someone who is unwilling or unable to do the work required, and can afford to pay for it.

The point is: When employees are paid enough to be customers (excluding the company store) of their employer, everybody wins. WE could out produce China easily, if American workers would settle for $1.00 an hour in wages and agree to live on Rice and fish head soup. The main reason the world economy is in terrible shape, the American CONSUMER is not consuming,
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