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Author Topic: Made in America  (Read 13104 times)
kathyp
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« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2011, 12:36:22 AM »

Quote
The NLRB is a paper tiger at best.


you must have slept through the whole Boeing mess?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2011, 06:34:26 AM »

The problem w/ unions is there's too many of them, each w/ its own bureaucracy, keeping people divided rather than together.  Perhaps that's the purpose of having so many, heh?  

IMO; All working people need/deserve is ONE WORKERS UNION, something like the 'wobblies' suggested/envisioned before dieing out (literally) 100 or so years ago.  

If you work, you're a member, its really as simple as that, whether you can afford the dues or not, you're still represented.  Once established in the US it could eventually include workers of the world.  Talk about 'people power' heh?  

Take a wild guess who this type of action or movement would frighten the most?

As for a return to making things in America.  IMO an immediate stop of the subsidies provided to BIG OIL (all fossil fuel/mining advocates/profiteers as well) which would allow an (painful for a while) adjustment to the "real" price/cost of oil, making it too expensive to continue importing 'cheap junk' from around the planet, forcing a return to making things here.  "IMO" I think $10.00 gallon gas in America would have a serious effect on job creation and entrepreneurship.  

You know, its only a matter of time before those folks now producing the junk we buy start demanding 'worker rights' of their own (in fact, this "flattening of the World" has already begun).  After all, they see a Buick in their future too.  

They 'all' want some form of the American dream (they just don't call it that), and why not?  Be assured they will not be content to just accept their current role (as slaves for the West) for much longer.  The unrest we are wittnessing from Egypt to Brazil (and many points in between) is very telling when closely observed.

"There's something happening Here" (and there)............ONE...is the answer.

thomas

« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 06:52:40 AM by T Beek » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2011, 06:45:00 AM »

All going down with the ship is a romantic idea. Worthy of dreamers. I would rather see people jump off the sinking ship and save themselves, instead of following suit where the crew has taken them....many to their demise.  Wink
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« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2011, 07:23:12 AM »

Many believe that competition among humans is what caused our greatest advancements through the ages, but history shows clearly that many more 'advancements' can be made when we find common ground and cooperate with each other instead. 

IMO; in order to assure long term survival, humans will learn to live peacefully with each other (evolve) or we will wind up killing each other (ourselves in the process) off.  I think (hope) we're getting closer to making that distinction (an evolutionary realisation made collectively) every day.  Its the only ray of hope I have for the future, I'm afraid. 

Romantic (?), sure it is (bless the romantics).  Dreamer (?) Sure, that too (we need more dreamers in the World, not less IMO). 

In the last century we've gotten to powerful for our own good and clearly don't have the necessary will to resist our own doom, w/out some kind of shift in collective consciousness.  It is appalling that we have ideologically motivated humans working hard toward the collective doom of us all and they are not called out and exposed, much less tarred and feathered. 

This great power (recently inherited) has also come w/ a great price, the nearly complete disconnect from (and fear of) the natural world. Cry

thomas
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« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2011, 07:39:56 AM »

It is very hard to respond to simple playbook semantics.

....to powerful for our own good"

".....fear of the natural world"

"....Motivated humans working hard towards the collective doom...."



So what power do we need to give up?

What fears are you suggesting?

What motivated humans are working on collective doom?

As screwed up as your suggesting, who do you propose lead us into the future? Union leaders? Our political leaders? The U.N.?

I think some think that if we all say it, it will just happen. Human nature (don't want to fear that) dictates that Utopian societies will not happen. Yes the pigs in Animal Farm said it would, but we all know the fate of the other animals after listening to the rhetoric, and thinking others could produce for the "dreamers" of the world. All that ended up happening was "dreaming" of the old days. Wink
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T Beek
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« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2011, 08:57:57 AM »

Yet you did respond, didn't you? grin

Nah, I don't really trust or beleive in any 'leaders' really, although I've been influenced by many.  IMO Leaders must be 'tested' for me to have any trust for them.  Most self-proclaimed leaders 'demand' our respect (well before deserving it) and demand followers as a matter of course w/out having to prove anything other than an ability to raise large amounts of cash.  Sorry for the confusion.  

Its just a discussion BjornBee.  No need to get so excited. Sometimes it just shuts it all down IMO.

The 'power' I was talking about is the power to annihilate ourselves in the blink of an eye.  That is too much power for any species still using its reptilian brain, don't you think?  Its a lot of control being held by a few, over us all.  I'm not comfortable in that position, but that's me.

Have you not heard of the 100Th monkey syndrome?  It appears there are more than just Utopian viewpoints (dreams)backing up some of what I've said.  It appears there just 'may' be something to it.  I try to keep an open mind.

I run into people who are as fearful of the natural world, as can be imagined only too often. Cry  

I have no 'certainty' to offer anyone (Just a lot of "I Don't Knows") and honestly I have a hard time trusting anyone w/ absolute certainty about most anything (see "uncertainty principal") these days.  I'd rather put my trust in doubters any day, if forced to select, must be something in the the name Wink.

thomas
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« Reply #26 on: December 13, 2011, 09:22:15 AM »

I said it was hard....not impossible!  Wink
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kathyp
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« Reply #27 on: December 13, 2011, 10:16:11 AM »

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IMO; All working people need/deserve is ONE WORKERS UNION, something like the 'wobblies' suggested/envisioned before dieing out (literally) 100 or so years ago

like say....a national socialist union?

Quote
Take a wild guess who this type of action or movement would frighten the most?

anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of history and two working brain cells?

Quote
As for a return to making things in America.  IMO an immediate stop of the subsidies provided to BIG OIL (all fossil fuel/mining advocates/profiteers as well) which would allow an (painful for a while) adjustment to the "real" price/cost of oil, making it too expensive to continue importing 'cheap junk' from around the planet, forcing a return to making things here.  "IMO" I think $10.00 gallon gas in America would have a serious effect on job creation and entrepreneurship

in what way....or on what planet?  it's not like you have to go far to see how this doesn't work.  look at the impact that high fuel costs have had in Europe.

Quote
Many believe that competition among humans is what caused our greatest advancements through the ages, but history shows clearly that many more 'advancements' can be made when we find common ground and cooperate with each other instead.


ideas come from people with....well....ideas, but great advances have come in two ways.  1. though the technology of war and 2.  through the competition to bring product to people and corner a part of a market.   

there are subsets like the space race that did develop a lot of tech, but i would put it under war.  even though that tech was developed for the govt use, it was not any good to the general public until it was released to the private sector for commercial development. it you think about it, from the time that tech became available to private concerns to now, is a short time, but look at the fantastic leaps in development....except that Tang is still Tang....yuk

your view of human nature is not Utopian.  it's wrong.  it's one thing i can be dogmatic about because it's been tried and it's failed.  even on the small scale it has failed.  on the large, it's been a disaster...but it is a form of population control.  maybe that's one way to control evil man....give people their utopia then let crazy leaders slaughter them by the millions....
 

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2011, 11:15:03 AM »

And so it goes, the conversation (?) digresses and deteriorates, dividing us further.  That really is the mission after all. 

So, keep up the good work, the rewards as promised will be forthcoming any day now rolleyes.

Truth be told, we always get exactly what we deserve.  Ready or not.

thomas
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kathyp
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« Reply #29 on: December 13, 2011, 12:08:26 PM »

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And so it goes, the conversation (?) digresses and deteriorates, dividing us further.

i don't see it as a deterioration, but i can see you someone who doesn't like their views challenged might feel that way......i guess tolerance of other points of view is only a good thing if there are no other points of view?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2011, 12:21:00 PM »

It is what happens when somebody throws idea out there, repeatedly talks about those ideas, but refuses to answer any questions about the problems with those ideas and then gets upset when somebody throws the ideas out because the failures are too big and unanswerable and then goes on to accuse them of degrading the conversation and division.

Socialism is an impossible utopia.  Because we're human.  It does, however, work great for the Borg.

They must be assimilated.
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Rick
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« Reply #31 on: December 13, 2011, 01:01:20 PM »

anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of history and two working brain cells?

Must we resort to insults in this forum?HuhHuhHuh??

I don't agree with some of what TBeek has posted but I respect his right to do it!

A note from our history "Better RED than DEAD": people have a tendency to react to their heart or stomach and worry about morality later!
(just an observation, not pointed at anyone)
« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 01:18:24 PM by ray » Logged

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« Reply #32 on: December 13, 2011, 01:23:31 PM »



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« Reply #33 on: December 13, 2011, 01:24:53 PM »

It is actually a humorous response created from the frustration of never having the answers to questions that are repeatedly asked about ideas repeatedly put forward. rolleyes

Thomas is of course welcome to his ideas.  

But the vague, diaphanous quality of the ideas and dreams put forward, while nice, are difficult to flesh out, thus the inability to pin down answers, and they are impossible to implement in a nitty gritty world of reality.

Reminds me of a Beatles song.  Makes us feel good for 2 minutes, then its back to work.
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« Reply #34 on: December 13, 2011, 01:26:50 PM »

Jeeezz!!! BlueBee, how can you eat at a time like this? grin  I'm glad someones enjoying the show.
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« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2011, 01:35:41 PM »

I’ve seen this movie before  Wink
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kathyp
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« Reply #36 on: December 13, 2011, 01:49:52 PM »

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A note from our history "Better RED than DEAD": people have a tendency to react to their heart or stomach and worry about morality later!

better dead than red....and as it turned out, that was true for millions of people....
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #37 on: December 13, 2011, 05:46:47 PM »

Bluebee,
That is American popcorn I presume? grin
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« Reply #38 on: December 13, 2011, 06:15:55 PM »

Did our forefathers sit around and talk about it? They learned a trade or skill, worked hard and passed it on to the next generation!!!
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« Reply #39 on: December 14, 2011, 06:08:58 AM »

Simply put; I prefer 'engaging' or inviting others in conversation or debate and clearly loath those who (Know it all)  ridicule or minimise another as a means to get their own point across (a method that's rarely successfull).

I've been frequently accused of focusing "too much' attention on the BIG picture over the years (fortunately for me, a talent I was well paid for). 

I admit to spending (waisting?) a lot of time waiting for others to just catch up, but that's OK.  I'm not trying to convince 'anyone' of "anything.'  Not my style or purpose.  One can 'choose' to be rigid or not in ones thoughts. 

Just attempting to have some honest dialogue is all.  Sure don't mean to 'add' to anyones confusion (vague? Really?) but really, its not my job to educate anyone anymore, only myself these days.   

But some are too smart already, can't teach them anything anyway, right?  Especially if it might reverse or challenge an acquired belief or principle.  Unfortunately, that's just one reason many people outside (and inside) the US think we are an arrogant culture (we are), that and our persistant demand that they all become "more like us" when on their soil.

I know very few things with the kind certainty some are able to express around here, and in my very 'limited' experience (over twenty years traveling the world conducting interviews, investigations and submitting the reports/studies to our government) I've found that those who are 'certain' to be some of the most dangerous, least tolerant and most unstable among us.  This was/is the case where ever I've conducted this sort of research/investigation, here in the States or on the other side of the World.  Despite the rhetoric, people really are just people.

It is only too apparent that many 'don't bother to read' the posts of others around here (perhaps that adds to some confusion?), especially if the statements challenge their thinking.  Just 'one' example on this thread (just one?) assumes I've never talked to any 'bad guys' (or girls) during my work in Muslim Countries, which is just someones 'preconceived' notion, used solely to strengthen their own weak argument and not based on any reality.  So it goes.

"Better dead than Red"  Another American phrase mostly misunderstood by Americans, much like "Arab Spring"

"It is the wise who can entertain a thought without having to accept it."  -Aristotle

thomas
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