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Author Topic: Made in America  (Read 13058 times)
kathyp
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« Reply #100 on: December 17, 2011, 06:35:14 PM »

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The point is: When employees are paid enough to be customers (excluding the company store) of their employer,

that's true if the market determines the cost of labor.  when the government or the unions are determining it, it leads to inflation in the cost of goods.  then the worker demands more to cover the cost of the stuff and the cost of the stuff goes up again.....

in Fords time, he had the option to pay what he wanted to pay.  if business had been bad, he could just as well reduce the cost of labor.  now, minimum wage is set and union demands are set.  if a business wants to control cost, they move to some place where labor...the major cost to business, is less. 

why does the car that was a couple thousand when i was a kid cost 50 thousand now? 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
sterling
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« Reply #101 on: December 18, 2011, 06:18:03 PM »

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The point is: When employees are paid enough to be customers (excluding the company store) of their employer,

that's true if the market determines the cost of labor.  when the government or the unions are determining it, it leads to inflation in the cost of goods.  then the worker demands more to cover the cost of the stuff and the cost of the stuff goes up again.....

in Fords time, he had the option to pay what he wanted to pay.  if business had been bad, he could just as well reduce the cost of labor.  now, minimum wage is set and union demands are set.  if a business wants to control cost, they move to some place where labor...the major cost to business, is less. 

why does the car that was a couple thousand when i was a kid cost 50 thousand now? 
A friend of mine worked in the Ford Company's finiance dept for several years. About three years he said $1,800 of every car Ford sells go to pay retired union workers health benifits.
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BlueBee
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« Reply #102 on: December 19, 2011, 05:42:37 AM »

Sterling, most of the big industrial companies of yesteryear offered employees the chance for a pension if they worked hard and stayed loyal to the company.  Well…at least stayed loyal!  That practice was to help save money for the employee’s retirement so they wouldn’t have to go begging the government for welfare money later in life.  There were no 401Ks back then and the businesses would rather have the employees focusing on the business than gambling in stocks every day.

So I would suspect your friend is probably correct.  I’m sure the cost of paying current union workers also adds cost to the cars.  The cost of paying the engineers adds cost to the cars.  The cost of paying Bill Ford adds cost to the cars.

If you have to employ American humans in a business, it costs money.  We don’t work for free; yet. 

So how do you undercut our American companies?  You remove the American worker and replace him/her with a Chinese worker at a quarter of the cost.  Is that fair competition?  Is that good for America? 

Note:  Isn’t it funny how we never replace American CEOs with the Chinese, LOL.  How many Chinese health care CEOs could we get for the $140 million the CEO of United Health Care “earned” last year?  And oh yeah, THOSE guys still get a big pension in retirement too!
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« Reply #103 on: December 19, 2011, 07:53:20 AM »

BlueBee:   applause

What I always find amazing is; everybody seems to think all those CEO's , CFO's, etc. earned those Millions.
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kathyp
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« Reply #104 on: December 19, 2011, 10:10:12 AM »

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Sterling, most of the big industrial companies of yesteryear offered employees the chance for a pension if they worked hard and stayed loyal to the company.  Well…at least stayed loyal!  That practice was to help save money for the employee’s retirement so they wouldn’t have to go begging the government for welfare money later in life.  There were no 401Ks back then and the businesses would rather have the employees focusing on the business than gambling in stocks every day.

not a bad plan until workers become more loyal to the union than the company.....and when the government offered "safety nets" so that people didn't need to worry about providing for their own future.



Quote
So how do you undercut our American companies?  You remove the American worker and replace him/her with a Chinese worker at a quarter of the cost.  Is that fair competition?  Is that good for America?
 

define "fair".  does it not go both ways?  is it "fair" for a business to have wage and benefit dictated by outside interests?  how can a business compete when that happens?

Quote
What I always find amazing is; everybody seems to think all those CEO's , CFO's, etc. earned those Millions.

it  doesn't matter whether you think they earned it or not.  the share holders and/or board decide what the pay and package scale is.  and really, in private business, what does it matter to you what they make?
  now....if you want to talk about companies sucking up tax dollars, as  Fannie and Freddie are, or GM still is with thier little green cars that blow up....that's another animal altogether.  another example of how the taxpayer is bent over by government intervention.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #105 on: December 19, 2011, 10:36:13 AM »

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the share holders and/or board decide what the pay and package scale is.  and really, in private business, what does it matter to you what they make?
OK, then what does it matter what the union guys make?

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GM still is with thier little green cars that blow up
Please provide a legit reference here.  I’m not aware of a single green car “blowing up”

Do you realize that gasoline is flammable too?  Has been for 100 years.
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kathyp
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« Reply #106 on: December 19, 2011, 10:58:20 AM »

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OK, then what does it matter what the union guys make?


there is no market basis for union wage and benefit.  the wage and perks of a CEO are set by the business.  those who have a stake in the business, have a say in that wage.  the wage and benefits of union members are set by threat and thuggary. shareholders have an interest in the health of a business.  union have an interest in getting more stuff.

Quote
Please provide a legit reference here.  I’m not aware of a single green car “blowing up”

Do you realize that gasoline is flammable too?  Has been for 100 years.


ok, only parts might blow up...
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jimhenry/2011/12/12/chevy-volt-battery-fires-threaten-all-electric-ve/2/
kind of important parts...

there is also a question about whether or not the government has withheld the info on the battery fires.  they were sure hot to follow the false Toyota story!

yes, gas is flammable.  the difference is that the government is not offering tax incentive to by (most) gas cars, but they are offering 1000's to buy little green cars.  where does that money come from?  and the fact is, no one seems to want them anyway....so our money was spent to promote and develop those things and they are not supported by the market.

BTW...if we all were to start driving Volts, has anyone given thought to what we'd do with those highly toxic batteries when they are swapped out (again 1000's of dollars) every few years? 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #107 on: December 19, 2011, 11:29:05 AM »

Fires yes, “blowing up” no. 

Do you remember the Ford ignition switch problem?  A college buddy’s house burned to the ground over that one.  Gasoline is extremely flammable and would likely be “banned” from cars if it didn’t already exist.  I have seen gasoline cars burn to the ground in minutes.  Once they start, there is no stopping them.

KathyP, I actually tend to agree with you on the subject of green.  Can’t believe I said that.  Most of these things are not ready for production yet, technically or economically.  California Air Resource Board (CARB) is to blame for the push to electric vehicles because they couldn’t compromise.  They wanted it all, “zero emissions” for CA.  We would have been better served investing in Natural Gas technologies which we have tons of IMO.  However CNG can blow up  Sad

I don’t think we have to worry about everybody driving Volts, they only sold 5500 so far….
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kathyp
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« Reply #108 on: December 19, 2011, 11:45:41 AM »

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I don’t think we have to worry about everybody driving Volts, they only sold 5500 so far….

i think we agree on this.  my concern is not the fact that they produce the Volt.  it is that the government is funding the production with tax money.  if the volt is wanted, the market will call for it....and the tech will be developed.

i don't expect things to be trouble free.  nothing is.  i just don't want stuff pushed to the public for the sake of an agenda and with my money.

my great grandmothers house had a wood stove in the kitchen for cooking and the old gas lamps in the living room.  the gas had been turned off when electricity was run, but how dangerous do you think that was?   grin  still, she said they had been thrilled to get the gas because they had light in the house besides oil lanterns and candles.  
i remember the old cloth wrapped wiring in the walls, held up with nails.  nothing was grounded and fires in homes were common.  no new thing comes without risk.
every time i watch A Christmas Story, i think if my great grandmothers house!

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #109 on: December 19, 2011, 06:53:17 PM »

>the wage and benefits of union members are set by threat and thuggary.

Could you give me some examples? I worked 28 years in a Union Shop, I can't remember any such actions! 

>the share holders and/or board decide what the pay and package scale is.

A 'Strike vote' is taken by the 'local' union members, this authorizes the 'bargaining committee' to call a strike (if they deem it appropriate). All negotiations require a certain amount of brinkmanship, the "threat" of a strike is the ONLY leverage the working person has!
The agreement reached between the 'Company' and the 'Bargaining committee' is brought to the 'rank and file' members of that union to be either accepted or rejected. The 'Company' is the representative of the 'share holder and the board'.

You want a real sad story; read up on Caterpillar and the UAW Strike (Late 1980.s?). That strike broke the local union, Scabs crossed the picket line, replacements were hired and a the company got to cherry pick the employees that they rehired.

kathyp : its not a one sided as you believe!

Gotta go Dinner time!


 
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kathyp
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« Reply #110 on: December 19, 2011, 07:03:41 PM »

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/09/business/union-dispute-near-seattle-turns-violent-and-idles-ports.html

here's one example and what's funny about this is that it was one union protesting the hiring of another.  both threats and thuggary.  this is how unions have traditionally gotten the stuff they get.  fortunately, most of them have less power than they used to and many people are waking up to the fact that union leadership (big salaries there) are not representing the workers.  they are raking in money to pay off pols and get more stuff for themselves.

if you called unions anything other than unions, they'd be illegal.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #111 on: December 19, 2011, 07:35:23 PM »

Ya'll must be to young to remember all the stuff that went on with the Teamsters Union back in the day. Can you recall the name Jimmy Hoffa.
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« Reply #112 on: December 19, 2011, 07:54:26 PM »

Blue said,  If you have to employ American humans in a business, it costs money.  We don’t work for free; yet. 

So how do you undercut our American companies?  You remove the American worker and replace him/her with a Chinese worker at a quarter of the cost.  Is that fair competition?  Is that good for America

Fair competition is a company like Nissan making cars and trucks here in middle TN and selling them at a better price because they do not have to pay all the over priced union wages and benefits. Nissan pays good BTW.
 You can't complain when the unions have out priced themselves and I buy a truck that is made by non union people that has a better price.
But I feel like I have a right to complain when the Gov. goes into a union shop with my tax money and bails out the union so they don't lose their benefits. It would probably been better to let GM go into bankruptcy so they could have renegotiated there union contract.
Over 70% of the stimulus money that went to Wis. went to pay union benefits. That was taxpayer money.
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« Reply #113 on: December 19, 2011, 08:26:09 PM »

Y'all got it all wrong it boils down in most cases to both sides and greed is the motive.  I am all for free market and companies that pay a fair wage which most small businesses try to do.  Most people will work harder for you if you treat them right.  Walmart under Sam Walton was a prime example of this.  He offered stock options to his employees.  Now they might not have made much then ringing up a register but eventually you had employees working there that had enough in stock to retire but continued to work because they loved the company.  Now Walmart has completely backed away from that model and as such I have yet to meet an employee there that likes working for them.  Most are only still there because they are about ready to retire or something better hasn't came along yet.  If Walmart wasn't so aggressive at stamping out stores when unions are voted in they would have went union a long time ago.  Most people realize and make concessions when their employer is in hard times.  Heck I know being in small business not taking a pay check to keep the doors open until things can improve.  People have to feel as it's not just them being picked on though.  Being responsible and being profitable can co exist just most have been brainwashed into believing well if I crap on the little guy the government will take care of them for me.
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« Reply #114 on: December 20, 2011, 12:39:36 AM »

You can blame unions, call people whiners, say we live better than ever before, but when you look at how much housing and transportation cost you have to admit we are living on less than half what we did 40 years ago. 

The reason we have more gadgets like cell phones, LCD TV's, PC's, X boxes, and the like is because of technology, not because of increased income.  Cheap labor from china and abroad has not increased our ability to consume, it made things cheaper for a moment, then cut your wages over and over until your dollars cant buy the housing and Cars you could buy before with the same amount of labor investment.  We will continue to see the Gap between housing, transportation, and other important necessities get larger and larger until they are out of reach for the average american unless we change the way we trade and overhaul our financial institution. 

The ability of corporations to manufacture goods elsewhere cheaper takes your ability to demand a fare wage away.  Its plane and simple.  Companies used to tell you why you should work for them, like great salary, insurance, and pension.  Now you have to beg for a job and tell them why they should hire you out of the hundred other sandwich eating hobo's standing in line for the same job because there is simply not a demand for the labor in this country for the goods we consume.  They are made in china or elsewhere.  Manufacturing jobs in the usa used to hold about 14 to 16 percent (about one in six or seven jobs) of employment from 1950 through the early 70's.  Now manufacturing only accounts for about 5 percent or one in 20 jobs.  The trend continues on and at this rate of decline there would be no manufacturing jobs left in 2030.  If we do not produce any of the products we consume, how do you think our currency is supposed to hold its value?  It cant, we cant survive by paying each other to trim our bushes and pick each others apples then buy our tv from china unless they start buying enough corn, soybeans, and cheese to make up for it.  It does not work out.

So you can blame the democrats or the republicans, or say everyone is lazy and dont want to work but that is absurd.  I was watching TV the couple weeks ago when they super team was unable to come to an agreement on how to cut spending.  I laughed when the republicans were bashing democratic spending and wanting to tax the rich and saying the poor needed to do their part and the kicker about the 99% ers was, they need to quit protesting and get a job.  Get what job?  There are no jobs, they are all in china, you dumb butts.  My god, really, get a job would ya.

People want things, Most are willing to work to get them.  Many are also smart enough to realize they are getting payed less than they are worth.

Trickle down dont work.  If you simply think raising profits of the rich creates jobs, then there should be job creation right now.  It is a simple fact right now that companies are in a wash of money.  They are not expanding, they are not paying more, they are paying less because there is a labor flushed market.  The only way to increase jobs, and salaries, is consumption, and competition in the labor market.  This will not get fixed until the people making the decisions are made to suffer as the rest of us do.  Good luck with that idea.
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« Reply #115 on: December 20, 2011, 06:10:36 AM »

Agreed; the pendulum has swung wide (right) while 'we the people' slept and the greedy (pigs) ran loose.

There is a direct correlation between 'flat wages' and record profits over the last 30 plus years.  Hmm-mm 'and all while American production (GDP) went 'up' not down.  

The Labor movement didn't begin w/ Hoffa huh.  Type in FRANK LITTLE and go 'BACK' from there for the REAL American Labor History, not the propaganda so often repeated here and so offensive to our ancestors, who fought and died for the workers rights 'we all take for granted.'

sterling likes to make up stuff and pass it off as fact:shock:, not the first time I've seen it around here.  

70% of stimulus sent to Wisconsin WAS NOT provided to Union members.  That is the same 'lie' spread by the KOCK Bros and their ilk who provided up to 70% of our Governor's campaign dollars.  We're getting ready to 'kick' him out the door.

The Kock's (from Colorado) don't live in my State.  Why is their money electing 'my' officials?  Any Guesses?

thomas      "I'm stickin' w/ the Union" (anything that brings people together)....Utah Phillips.  Even retired I support three, and no I recieve 'no' monetary benefit/pension for doing so.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2011, 09:58:02 AM by T Beek » Logged

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« Reply #116 on: December 20, 2011, 09:31:39 AM »

 applause applause applause
Most won't be happy until we have lost a hundred years of labor progress!
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T Beek
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« Reply #117 on: December 20, 2011, 10:11:42 AM »

That has been the 'stated' goal for many, many years already, Ray.  The KOCK Bros Daddy was a founding member of the John Birch Society and the nuts didn't fall very far grin

They remain comfortable 'beleiving' we the people have 'all' but forgotten about those who did the fighting 100 years ago, since they are dead. 

Thanks also to their ilk for assisting w/ the dumbing down of our Country, where we don't teach that very American part of American history.

thomas
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« Reply #118 on: December 20, 2011, 01:22:34 PM »


The reason we have more gadgets like cell phones, LCD TV's, PC's, X boxes, and the like is because of technology, not because of increased income. 

It makes us able to consume more with less.  And since the 50s wages did go up.  Back then most houses were single income, not any more.  So people bought more with that extra wage, until we got to the point were that second income was NECESSARY to support the larger house, the nicer cars, the more toys. Loose that second wage...and suddenly the house can't be paid for.

If we all lived in houses like they had in the old days and did what they did in the old days, we wouldn't be facing near the financial problems we have today.

Our problems isn't because of THEM (the rich, the poor, the unions, the corporations, the middle class). It is because of US (all of the above).
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« Reply #119 on: December 20, 2011, 01:25:59 PM »

BTW, tbeek, there's a SOROS for every KOCH.  He's every bit as scheming, manipulative, and evil as you maintain they are, just on the other side.  Whatever dumbing down you maintain happens on both sides.
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Rick
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